Legal Foriegner

[Isaanresting]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

[farangsay]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

What do you mean by the above?

If you mean people working without the correct visa/WP say so.

There are plenty of farang on tourist visas living on cash/income from outside Thailand who are perfectly legal , not liable to Thai taxation , and actually benefiting the Thai economy in a small way.

[nonthaburial]

My God isaanresting it seems as if you have struck a raw nerve. But at least you and are are legal and pay taxes etc. good feeling eh ?? no need to look over our shoulders every second or so.

[calibanjr.]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

Uh, no, um, sir, you're not.

I run an export company, 100% legal, and it was actually just as hard getting "more legal" in terms of paperwork as it is trying to turn a profit. Look, doing business in Thailand is hard, I feel your pain, REALLY, but going haywire on people who are in a different boat than you or I won't help you through it. Secondly, I think the amount of dead-enders is over-estimated, and for the most part, as you will see posted elsewhere, I think it's pretty hard for an expat, to "live off of Thailand", the Thais are pretty good at running a system that pretty much assures that a great majority (to say the least) of farangs that are here leave more cash here than they use up in resources and infrastructure.

Edited June 18, 2007 by calibanjr.

[jdinasia]

I am perfectly legal and not paying taxes .... I do have to do the 90 day trips somewhere ... but that is hardly a burden

(If only Thailand would have a gay marraige/civil union law ... I could just do the 90 day check ins at immigration!

[farangsay]

My God isaanresting it seems as if you have struck a raw nerve. But at least you and are are legal and pay taxes etc. good feeling eh ?? no need to look over our shoulders every second or so.

The only nerve you might have struck is the memory of a wife who would rather use a euphemism than saying something plainly.

PS Strongly suggest you re-acquire the habit of looking over your shoulder because even if the road seems to be clear when you start to cross there may be some clown on a motorbike on the wrong side of the road coming up right behind you.

[Maestro]

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

What an absolutely silly post to make! What in the world possessed you to suspect that the majority of farang working in Thailand do so illegally? Certainly, nothing posted in this forum recently gives rise to such assumption.

I am inclined to think that you started this topic with the express purpose of inviting flames – which would be against forum rules – but for the moment I am reserving judgment.

--

Maestro

[Naam]

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT. Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

What "Jimmy Farang" does is neither my business nor does it frustrate me. i'm much more interested whether it will rain this afternoon or not

[Jimjim]

Isaanresting, Just get over it and live happily that you're legal. Who cares about those that aren't? That's their problem. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. Breath deeply, and think happy thoughts.

[Cyberstar]

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

How does everyone else feel????

I isn't possible to run a business in a 100% legal way in Thailand! Not even the guys from RD, checking up on your yearly audit, care about the law - they only care about passing on a nice looking case to the next in line. Rather than passing on a honest, genuine, fully law compliant paperwork, with one detail the boss might have personal distaste against - they'll tell you how to shuffle around the figures, so they look nice enough for the higher ups to accept.

[Mid]

It isn't possible to run a business in a 100% legal way in Thailand!

there's a man who knows what is what ...............................

[observer21]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

Many of the 'Jimmy ferangs' may be retired, or working overseas, or just spending their hard earned, so why should they be paying to the authoritys - what are you on mate

[RAZZELL]

Congratulations, you can sleep soundly in your bed...

Unlike some

RAZZ

[eek]

Troll?

I am here on a TVisa. Going for my 3rd soon. I make a private income from outside of Thailand. My bank in the UK taxes me as usual. I believe this is perfectly legal, and i wish there was another way than having to go for a TV every 3 months (which I, along with every other TV person in my position pay for). In your books I am a "jimmy farrang" doing my "thing"? However, unless Thailand decide to create another visa in which myself and others can remain here without the need to leave every 3 months we are stuck with it. I choose to stay in Thailand, and feel greatful to be able to do so, but I would much rather pay for a long term visa than the expense and worry of leaving LOS.

In paying your legal and "all the necessary overheads" you are lucky that the Thai visa system has a way for you to obtain your visa. It may also be worth noting that most of us jimmy farrang as you put it, possibly pay more for our visas costs every three months and would much rather pay taxes etc or have the means to open up "businesses" for the security of remaining here.

[Aujuba]

I don't think the visa is as important as having a work permit. If you are working here and do not have one then you would be breaking the law.

As for the laws, I understand the OP. It can be frustrating to know that you do everything the gov't asks for meanwhile other people don't. This could relate to how they get visas, work permits and whether or not they do the 90 day registration thing. I think it is just human nature to feel this way for those of us who do follow the rules. But the truth is, and this is the most important part, that the law is really written for fools. That's why corrupt people like Thaksin have thrived in Thailand. Following the law is a great thing to do but it won't get you anything in the real world. If you are going to do business F the law. Look at the world, its run by people who could give an F about the law. A lot of people really don't feel the difference between following the law and not. They are blessed. The rest of us who do follow the law are doomed to suffer from ill fortune and jealousy.

You can rip this apart but its the truth. You can't tell some people what they are doing is wrong. They don't know it. It's just like telling someone that what they think is beautiful is not. It is impossible for them to understand. Right and wrong are not black and white to all people.

If you can stretch the law, it would be the best thing for you to do as your competitors are doing it. If you can't, you are going to suffer all your life.

[calibanjr.]

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

How does everyone else feel????

I isn't possible to run a business in a 100% legal way in Thailand! Not even the guys from RD, checking up on your yearly audit, care about the law - they only care about passing on a nice looking case to the next in line. Rather than passing on a honest, genuine, fully law compliant paperwork, with one detail the boss might have personal distaste against - they'll tell you how to shuffle around the figures, so they look nice enough for the higher ups to accept.

You've just been added to my "experience with observation skills" list. I'm involved in export and the permits I need for certain items change by the month! I've got items that I ship one month with Customs documentation one month, next month "no documents needed", next month "prohibited from shipping", wait a month, "no documents needed". Same items, no quota issues, just the interpretation of the rules, sometimes by the same official, at any given time.

Bookkeeping, same format, same bookkeeper, sometimes the audit is easy, sometimes (as you said) they'll tell the accountant to "move the numbers" to slide the audit through).

All biznet in Thailand is herding cats.

[Gary A]

I first moved to Thailand in 1991. I have seen many things happen to trusting farangs and have made some expensive serious mistakes myself. From those mistakes came the three rules that I now live by. What you are worrying about violates my rule number three. That rule says to "Mind your own business and to keep a low profile".

Rules number one and two are;

Number one - NEVER spend more here than you can afford to walk away from.

Number two - Never be worth more dead than alive.

[PeaceBlondie]

I agree with aujuba that often in Thailand, "the law is really written for fools." While I was in Russia recently, I read a booklet written by a foreigner for other foreigners trying to do business in Russia. What he said rang true for Thailand, to a great extent: this is a nation and culture that lived for many centuries without law, without a rule of law or a meaningful national constitution. It's a country built upon personal and social relationships, and the law is in place primarily to punish those whom the powerful wish to punish. That is causing Thaksin to be punished now.

Of course, if taken too literally or seriously, the opening post is a sweeping generalization. If we wish to make such generalizations, the Thais themselves will tell us that "we are not alone." They understand how to get around the law here, and you can argue that they do it legally. The law is not the law we know, and its framers wrote the law knowing it would not be widely followed to the letter.

Having said that, I have been an employee three times in Thailand. The first employer was a government school, old, powerful, respected; they collected income tax from my salary and probably did not forward it, since I had no tax ID number. The next employer, another similar government school, did not even bother with tax. Both govt. schools made no serious attempt at getting me legal, helping with visa or work permit, although they used me as a full time professional. The last employer, a private school only using me part time, made no attempts at making me legal. But note this well, please: I was personally at far greater risk for having disregarded the laws, then my illegal employers were.

[wolfmanjack]

I am legal as far as the licenses, permits and visas are concerned. I am illegal in the fact that the revenue department does not care about the receipts and insists that I pay taxes based on the size of my factory instead of my profit. To put it simple i pay more tax than what is legally required.

As soon as I turn 50 I am going to take the advice of most posters and conform to the way thais do it. I will"retire" and stop paying for the taxes and work permits.

Face it. I pay more in work permit fees than most thais pay in taxes.

[Heng]

Plenty of legal foreigners here. Sure, (likely) plenty more illegal ones. Big deal. If you're simply curious as to who they are... just log on to TV and checkout who all is whinging when they periodically tighten the visa nooses or complicate the various immigration related hoops.

[wolfmanjack]

I agree with aujuba that often in Thailand, "the law is really written for fools." While I was in Russia recently, I read a booklet written by a foreigner for other foreigners trying to do business in Russia. What he said rang true for Thailand, to a great extent: this is a nation and culture that lived for many centuries without law, without a rule of law or a meaningful national constitution. It's a country built upon personal and social relationships, and the law is in place primarily to punish those whom the powerful wish to punish. That is causing Thaksin to be punished now.

Of course, if taken too literally or seriously, the opening post is a sweeping generalization. If we wish to make such generalizations, the Thais themselves will tell us that "we are not alone." They understand how to get around the law here, and you can argue that they do it legally. The law is not the law we know, and its framers wrote the law knowing it would not be widely followed to the letter.

Right. Most of the laws here are in place to be used when they feel they need it. Also to facilitate the bribing process.

[wolfmanjack]

Plenty of legal foreigners here. Sure, (likely) plenty more illegal ones. Big deal. If you're simply curious as to who they are... just log on to TV and checkout who all is whinging when they periodically tighten the visa nooses or complicate the various immigration related hoops.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. I am currently legal and have been since i first came here in 1995. The problem is that I ( and many other ) do not know if we will be legal next month. Every time they change the rules for one type of visa we start wondering when they are going to change the rules for ours.

[Heng]

True. I'll concede that some whinging is indeed legitimate.

[junkofdavid2]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

I don't believe you are 100% legal, and you may even be liable to go to JAIL.

1) Have you ever attended a meeting outside your place of work (office), like maybe in a restaurant or Starbucks?

2) Have you ever done work which is not 100% in line with your work permit?

(ex., do some minor home construction for your own house)

3) Have you ever "volunteered" (i.e. "worked") for a good cause when that volunteer work was not outlined on your work permit? (Ex., gave a talk at your kid's Sunday school)

These are just 3 examples of what is ILLEGAL. There are countless others...

[wolfmanjack]

True. I'll concede that some whinging is indeed legitimate.

thank you

[wolfmanjack]

Hi

I am working here in Thailand as are many, I also have a couple of business's with all the correct paper, both companie's pay tax and VAT.

Am I the only one that is 100% legal?

Very frustrating when you are legal and paying all the necessary overheads, when all around you jimmy farrang is doing his thing on a 90 day visa at best paying nothing to the authoritie's.

How does everyone else feel????

I don't believe you are 100% legal, and you may even be liable to go to JAIL.

1) Have you ever attended a meeting outside your place of work (office), like maybe in a restaurant or Starbucks?

2) Have you ever done work which is not 100% in line with your work permit?

(ex., do some minor home construction for your own house)

3) Have you ever "volunteered" (i.e. "worked") for a good cause when that volunteer work was not outlined on your work permit? (Ex., gave a talk at your kid's Sunday school)

These are just 3 examples of what is ILLEGAL. There are countless others...

I am guilty of all 3 of these.

1. I have had meetings with customers at places other than my factory.

2. I have taken my garbage out and ironed my own clothes.

3. I volunteered to help the thai teachers at my kids school with their English pronunciation. Does that count ??

[junkofdavid2]

But note this well, please: I was personally at far greater risk for having disregarded the laws, then my illegal employers were.

This is actually untrue, if we were to follow the "written" law, which states that the illegal worker is only liable for up to 3 months in prison, but the employer is liable for up to 3 YEARS in prison.

But of course, in actual implementation, it seems to me that it's only the illegal worker who gets the rap. I could be wrong.

[Isaanresting]

I don't think the visa is as important as having a work permit. If you are working here and do not have one then you would be breaking the law.

As for the laws, I understand the OP. It can be frustrating to know that you do everything the gov't asks for meanwhile other people don't. This could relate to how they get visas, work permits and whether or not they do the 90 day registration thing. I think it is just human nature to feel this way for those of us who do follow the rules. But the truth is, and this is the most important part, that the law is really written for fools. That's why corrupt people like Thaksin have thrived in Thailand. Following the law is a great thing to do but it won't get you anything in the real world. If you are going to do business F the law. Look at the world, its run by people who could give an F about the law. A lot of people really don't feel the difference between following the law and not. They are blessed. The rest of us who do follow the law are doomed to suffer from ill fortune and jealousy.

You can rip this apart but its the truth. You can't tell some people what they are doing is wrong. They don't know it. It's just like telling someone that what they think is beautiful is not. It is impossible for them to understand. Right and wrong are not black and white to all people.

If you can stretch the law, it would be the best thing for you to do as your competitors are doing it. If you can't, you are going to suffer all your life.

You cannot acquire a WP without a Business Visa anyway, then comes the VAT and Tax, then the NI card.

Yes nice to sleep soundly.

Personally the sooner they make it law that a company can only do business with a leagally registered company the better.

[Isaanresting]

Plenty of legal foreigners here. Sure, (likely) plenty more illegal ones. Big deal. If you're simply curious as to who they are... just log on to TV and checkout who all is whinging when they periodically tighten the visa nooses or complicate the various immigration related hoops.

Yes I agree, step in the right direction, HOPE THEY TIGHTEN THEM (v0sa Regs) EVEN MORE.

[damian5000]

99% of the Thai's are working or running their businesses illegally and not paying taxes. Why should I? I just run mine through my GF. Thailand is the biggest group of smiling, freeloading hustlers I've ever seen.

Edited June 21, 2007 by damian5000