‘America is killing itself’: world reacts with horror and incomprehension to Texas shooting

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

metal detectors at every school, and an escort for strangers would stop most criminal activity at a school.

....  a metal detector at schools as a means to prevent mass shootings instead of making guns illegal... 

 

There is a complete and utter disconnect...  those who are pro-gun and those who are anti-gun seem to be wired extremely differently. 

 

KhunLA presented a justifiable argument (in the link) as to why he may need a gun - carrying expensive equipment in high-risk areas...  Are these area’s high risk because of the prevalence of guns ?....    

[fredwiggy]

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

....  a metal detector at schools as a means to prevent mass shootings instead of making guns illegal... 

 

There is a complete and utter disconnect...  those who are pro-gun and those who are anti-gun seem to be wired extremely differently. 

 

KhunLA presented a justifiable argument (in the link) as to why he may need a gun - carrying expensive equipment in high-risk areas...  Are these area’s high risk because of the prevalence of guns ?....    

Guns aren't going to be illegal, at least any time soon, so there are things that will stop, or slow down, this kind of insanity. A high risk area is an area where people steal more readily. Poverty areas, gang areas, prostitution and human trafficking, and drug sales. The dangers in these areas have people thinking they are better off armed, and there is truth in that.

[KhunLA]

They had metal detectors in the school district of the one town I've lived in (one of those not so nice places I mention)  since 1988 ????

 

Don't quote me, but might apply to many of the schools in Philly, PA metro area.

 

 

As an aside, here is a 'school shooting' last year, in my 'Hometown' of 25+ years.   After a football game, I think, and fans letting out, on the very far corner of athletic area, actually about 1/2 kms from the middle/high school bldgs, a disturbance where someone discharge a weapon from a car.

No real specific of why that ever happened ... BUT ... 3 of Sharon Hill's finest, highly trained in Blue, took it upon themselves to open fire on a vehicle, not the vehicle.

 

Killed was an 8 yr old innocent bystander, by police bullet.  Simply mind boggling

Yes, that's consider a mass school shooting:  https://6abc.com/fanta-bility-shooting-sharon-hill-officers-academy-park-high-school/11025304/

[James105]

17 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

It's for that one time that might happen, when someone walks up to you and tries to hurt, rob or rape you. If you have a handgun, you can defend yourself against that person who is already breaking the law by accosting you ,and it may turn worse. Not all people who rob just take the money and run. Most people who carry guns never take them out and hope not to.

Sure, but you are forgetting that since guns are legal the person who wants to rob you will also have a gun, making that interaction potentially more deadly than it would be in other countries that have tight gun control.    Also, you are going to be taken by surprise in that scenario and already have a gun pointed at you so if you went for your gun you would most likely be shot and killed rather than just being robbed.  

 

The "hero with a gun" is just a fantasy that the NRA uses in its marketing/propaganda to make people like you part with your money.   It just increases the chances of you getting killed by a gun.  Every scenario you can possibly think of is made more dangerous/deadly by the presence of more guns.   

[fredwiggy]

15 minutes ago, James105 said:

Sure, but you are forgetting that since guns are legal the person who wants to rob you will also have a gun, making that interaction potentially more deadly than it would be in other countries that have tight gun control.    Also, you are going to be taken by surprise in that scenario and already have a gun pointed at you so if you went for your gun you would most likely be shot and killed rather than just being robbed.  

 

The "hero with a gun" is just a fantasy that the NRA uses in its marketing/propaganda to make people like you part with your money.   It just increases the chances of you getting killed by a gun.  Every scenario you can possibly think of is made more dangerous/deadly by the presence of more guns.   

That fantasy has saved many many thousands of lives. Yes, if you draw on someone that's pointing a gun at you, you may get shot, but there have been many thousands of times that a citizen that was armed and has intervened in a crime. Especially those where knives were used. Tell that to the ones that have been saved and they'll let you know otherwise. https://www.heritage.org/firearms/commentary/11-more-examples-how-firearms-save-gun-owners-lives-property

Edited June 2, 2022 by fredwiggy

[James105]

40 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

That fantasy has saved many many thousands of lives. Yes, if you draw on someone that's pointing a gun at you, you may get shot, but there have been many thousands of times that a citizen that was armed and has intervened in a crime. Especially those where knives were used. Tell that to the ones that have been saved and they'll let you know otherwise. https://www.heritage.org/firearms/commentary/11-more-examples-how-firearms-save-gun-owners-lives-property

This is just NRA sponsored propaganda.   I know propaganda is effective as I have seen how well it works during the last 2 years with Covid.   Once someone is convinced of their position they won't just defend it but will seek out and propagate the propaganda.   

 

Guns "save lives" in much the same way that "fire puts out fire" or "burgers make fat people thin".  

[fredwiggy]

45 minutes ago, James105 said:

This is just NRA sponsored propaganda.   I know propaganda is effective as I have seen how well it works during the last 2 years with Covid.   Once someone is convinced of their position they won't just defend it but will seek out and propagate the propaganda.   

 

Guns "save lives" in much the same way that "fire puts out fire" or "burgers make fat people thin".  

I know of an instance where someone was detained while trying to rob another, by an armed citizen, until the police arrested him, and the NRA doesn't publish actual instances, the media does. Guns save lives everyday, and some are from armed citizens. Can't argue with facts because of personal emotions. Yes. something has to be done, but the proof exists that guns save lives. In the wrong hands they take lives, so that's the problem that needs to be fixed. Bul**hit exists in every walk of life, from politicians lies to medical to commercials, which mostly promote things that harm you, where food is concerned, so you have to separate the facts from fiction, and then get others to vote for people who actually do their jobs, and don't get into power just for power, like Trump did in the last election.

[Bkk Brian]

31 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I know of an instance where someone was detained while trying to rob another, by an armed citizen, until the police arrested him, and the NRA doesn't publish actual instances, the media does. Guns save lives everyday, and some are from armed citizens. Can't argue with facts because of personal emotions. Yes. something has to be done, but the proof exists that guns save lives. In the wrong hands they take lives, so that's the problem that needs to be fixed. Bul**hit exists in every walk of life, from politicians lies to medical to commercials, which mostly promote things that harm you, where food is concerned, so you have to separate the facts from fiction, and then get others to vote for people who actually do their jobs, and don't get into power just for power, like Trump did in the last election.

You say you can't argue with the facts because of personal emotion. I totally agree.  

 

You then go onto give anecdotal accounts of supposed instances to justify your reasoning.

 

Sorry can't have it both ways.

 

The facts are that tighter gun controls will save far more lives as evidenced in other countries. Those are facts that exist already and quite distinct from fiction

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[KanchanaburiGuy]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Once someone is convinced of their position they won't just defend it but will seek out and propagate the propaganda.   

 

Guns "save lives" in much the same way that "fire puts out fire" or "burgers make fat people thin".  

Except.......... 

 

Guns DO save lives.

 

And fire fighters DO light fires to stop raging blazes. 

 

And burgers CAN help make a fat person thin, if lower calorie burgers are eaten instead of higher calorie, higher fat alternatives; or if the burger satisfied a craving that might have otherwise gotten out of hand. 

 

---------------

 

See, theres nothing wrong with trying to expose and undercut the persuasive power of propaganda.

 

But when you offer up things that are true as examples of things that are silly to believe, it makes me wonder............ are YOU the person I should be listening to about these things? 

 

Guns DO save lives. Fires CAN help put out fires. Burgers CAN help fat people get thin. 

 

Speaking these truths is not "spreading propaganda." They are just.......... true!

 

I understand the concerns about propaganda, I truly do. But when did someone speaking simple truths......... become something to fear? 

 

"You're just spreading the NRAs propaganda!" [paraphrased] 

 

Okay. But if the NRAs "propaganda" also happens to be true............. why should anyone hesitate to repeat it? If it's true............. why should anyone run from it? 

 

But it all STARTS with being able to distinguish things that are true......... from things that are not. And a good place to start THAT is to recognize that just because something may sound  silly on the face of it............. ("use fire to put out fire?").......... that doesn't mean it can't still be true! 

 

Guns take lives.  

Guns save lives. 

 

Both of these statements are true. 

 

Trying to pretend that one of them is just "NRA propaganda"

.........is incredibly disingenuous. 

 

Cheers! 

Edited June 2, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

[jvs]

And yet another shooting i a hospital,keep on pouring out the "guns safe lives'

propaganda guys,less and less people are believing you.

The NRA is in trouble,less members,less money coming in and backing from the public.

The bad news is however,more extreme gun lovers associations are rearing their ugly head,

but less and more extreme is also more dangerous.

 

 

 

[fredwiggy]

29 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You say you can't argue with the facts because or personal emotion. I totally agree.  

 

You then go onto give anecdotal accounts of supposed instances to justify your reasoning.

 

Sorry can't have it both ways.

 

The facts are that tighter gun controls will save far more lives as evidenced in other countries. Those are facts that exist already and quite distinct from fiction

Sorry, I stated facts from personal experience, and know of more from reliable friends that say the same. You can check any media account and see if it is legitimate easily. Some of the tighter gun controls you may be speaking of are already in place in America, such as extensive background checks, but the age limit does have to be raised to 21, and having a mental evaluation done by a psychiatrist is also a good idea. Banning guns would be impossible in America, as too many own them, and they are your voters, and too many are hunters, target shooters, and armed citizens, legitimate owners who aren't doing these crimes. who will not give up their guns. If anything, banning AR-15's might be done, but that will not stop someone that is determined to kill, as the Oklahoma bomber showed us. Immediate banning of higher capacity clips for semi autos will help, as well as metal detectors, CCTV,  and an escort for visitors in all schools.

Edited June 2, 2022 by fredwiggy

[James105]

20 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Except.......... 

 

Guns DO save lives.

 

And fire fighters DO light fires to stop raging blazes. 

 

And burgers CAN help make a fat person thin, if lower calorie burgers are eaten instead of higher calorie, higher fat alternatives; or if the burger satisfied a craving that might have otherwise gotten out of hand. 

 

---------------

 

See, theres nothing wrong with trying to expose and undercut the persuasive power of propaganda.

 

But when you offer up things that are true as examples of things that are silly to believe, it makes me wonder............ are YOU the person I should be listening to about these things? 

 

Guns DO save lives. Fires CAN help put out fires. Burgers CAN help fat people get thin. 

 

Speaking these truths is not "spreading propaganda." They are just.......... true!

 

I understand the concerns about propaganda, I truly do. But when did someone speaking simple truths......... become something to fear? 

 

"You're just spreading the NRAs propaganda!" [paraphrased] 

 

Okay. But if the NRAs "propaganda" also happens to be true............. why should anyone hesitate to repeat it? If it's true............. why should anyone run from it? 

 

But it all STARTS with being able to distinguish things that are true......... from things that are not. And a good place to start THAT is to recognize that just because something may sound  silly on the face of it............. ("use fire to put out fire?").......... that doesn't mean it can't still be true! 

 

Guns take lives.  

Guns save lives. 

 

Both of these statements are true. 

 

Trying to pretend that one of them is just "NRA propaganda"

.........is incredibly disingenuous. 

 

Cheers! 

It's propaganda and like most others you are susceptible to it.  You are told you need a gun to keep you safe and you believe that countries that do not allow people to legally own guns are the ones that are actually less safe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.   Every single interaction in America is made less safe by the presence of guns.    The police have to be armed as everyone else could be armed which leads to numerous accidental shootings.    Even the most simple of police interactions such as stopping someone for speeding becomes a significantly more dangerous encounter as the police have to expect the person they are stopping will also have a gun.   

 

The primary job of a gun is to kill people, it is not to save lives.   It is very good at its primary job, which is why every other civilised country on the planet restricts their usage.    Another 4 people dead today in a hospital in the USA where - quelle surprise - guns did not stop the guns.  The shooter is only dead as he apparently shot himself.   

[fredwiggy]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

It's propaganda and like most others you are susceptible to it.  You are told you need a gun to keep you safe and you believe that countries that do not allow people to legally own guns are the ones that are actually less safe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.   Every single interaction in America is made less safe by the presence of guns.    The police have to be armed as everyone else could be armed which leads to numerous accidental shootings.    Even the most simple of police interactions such as stopping someone for speeding becomes a significantly more dangerous encounter as the police have to expect the person they are stopping will also have a gun.   

 

The primary job of a gun is to kill people, it is not to save lives.   It is very good at its primary job, which is why every other civilised country on the planet restricts their usage.    Another 4 people dead today in a hospital in the USA where - quelle surprise - guns did not stop the guns.  The shooter is only dead as he apparently shot himself.   

A lot of us aren't sheep and followers, but make decisions based on our own agenda, intelligence and desires. Some of us carry guns because we know that there are criminals out there that will always have access to guns, so we carry top protect ourselves or our families. It doesn't matter what others tell us because we have our own minds and don't believe what others tell us unless we see proof or it makes sense to us. There will be accidental shootings yes, because some are to lazy to learn how to handle a weapon, but this happens with automobiles and booze also. It is the gun owners responsibility to learn about and use his weapon correctly. Some don't do that and make it look bad for the others.

[Phoenix Rising]

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A lot of us aren't sheep and followers, but make decisions based on our own agenda, intelligence and desires. Some of us carry guns because we know that there are criminals out there that will always have access to guns, so we carry top protect ourselves or our families. It doesn't matter what others tell us because we have our own minds and don't believe what others tell us unless we see proof or it makes sense to us. There will be accidental shootings yes, because some are to lazy to learn how to handle a weapon, but this happens with automobiles and booze also. It is the gun owners responsibility to learn about and use his weapon correctly. Some don't do that and make it look bad for the others.

Riding a car requires training and certification. Requiring the same for guns has got to be one of the biggest no-brainers in history.

[jvs]

9 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A lot of us aren't sheep and followers, but make decisions based on our own agenda, intelligence and desires. Some of us carry guns because we know that there are criminals out there that will always have access to guns, so we carry top protect ourselves or our families. It doesn't matter what others tell us because we have our own minds and don't believe what others tell us unless we see proof or it makes sense to us. There will be accidental shootings yes, because some are to lazy to learn how to handle a weapon, but this happens with automobiles and booze also. It is the gun owners responsibility to learn about and use his weapon correctly. Some don't do that and make it look bad for the others.

Very very true!

Specially the part about making decisions based on your own agenda and intelligence.

No need to say more.

 

[KanchanaburiGuy]

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The facts are that tighter gun controls will save far more lives as evidenced in other countries. Those are facts that exist already and quite distinct from fiction

Okay, but.......... 

 

* Which of those countries STARTED with there being 20% more guns than people?

 

* Which of those countries taught from middle school up, that owning guns is a person's RIGHT?* (See below) 

 

* Which of those countries has pounded into its citizens' brains their whole lives that Individual Freedom & Choice......... are more important than........... government control. That Individual Freedom & Choice are, in fact, the most important things! 

 

It's great that you can point to countries where controls have succeeded. But what you can't do  is point to any countries that resemble the United States.......... where these controls have succeeded! Because there aren't any! 

 

It's Apples and. Oranges. - - - - -

Yes, we can point to Apples and Oranges and relate them as "fruit." It's nice that they have that in common.

 

But knowing that Apples are sweet right now, tells us nothing about whether Oranges will be! This........... despite the fact that both are "fruit." 

 

The "evidence" of other countries is meaningless............. unless those other countries had similar circumstances to those that exist in America, today. 

 

None

Ever

Have! 

 

Apples and Oranges! No one who has ever succeeded............ has ever faced our difficulties. And that means that no one else's "success"........... can be used as proof of anything!

 

Cheers!

 

-----------------

-----------------

 

* (When something is a RIGHT, taking it away is a big deal. As a rule, it is always wrong to take away RIGHTS, whether an individual does it, or a government.

 

Both our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights effectively say that Rights are tantamount to "Sacred Ground"............ You don't go there unless it is absolutely necessary. And even if it's NECESSARY.......... you're STILL going to meet with a great deal of resistance!

 

Americans, on the whole, view gun ownership as a RIGHT!

 

Taking away such a Right........... would be seen as striking a blow to the very foundations of our society!) 

[jvs]

2 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Okay, but.......... 

 

* Which of those countries STARTED with there being 20% more guns than people?

 

* Which of those countries taught from middle school up, that owning guns is a person's RIGHT?* (See below) 

 

* Which of those countries has pounded into its citizens' brains their whole lives that Individual Freedom & Choice......... are more important than........... government control. That Individual Freedom & Choice are, in fact, the most important things! 

 

It's great that you can point to countries where controls have succeeded. But what you can't do  is point to any countries that resemble the United States.......... where these controls have succeeded! Because there aren't any! 

 

It's Apples and. Oranges. - - - - -

Yes, we can point to Apples and Oranges and relate them as "fruit." It's nice that they have that in common.

 

But knowing that Apples are sweet right now, tells us nothing about whether Oranges will be! This........... despite the fact that both are "fruit." 

 

The "evidence" of other countries is meaningless............. unless those other countries had similar circumstances to those that exist in America, today. 

 

None

Ever

Have! 

 

Apples and Oranges! No one who has ever succeeded............ has ever faced our difficulties. And that means that no one else's "success"........... can be used as proof of anything!

 

Cheers!

 

-----------------

-----------------

 

* (When something is a RIGHT, taking it away is a big deal. As a rule, it is always wrong to take away RIGHTS, whether an individual does it, or a government.

 

Both our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights effectively say that Rights are tantamount to "Sacred Ground"............ You don't go there unless it is absolutely necessary. And even if it's NECESSARY.......... you're STILL going to meet with a great deal of resistance!

 

Americans, on the whole, view gun ownership as a RIGHT!

 

Taking away such a Right........... would be seen as striking a blow to the very foundations of our society!) 

It is Absolutely necessary but if you can not see that or refuse to see that then there is no point in discussing this.

Do you really think you have more personal freedom and choice then people from other countries?(apart from the gun thing)

[fredwiggy]

21 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Riding a car requires training and certification. Requiring the same for guns has got to be one of the biggest no-brainers in history.

Yes, and you can see what happens when the driving test is too easy here in Thailand. In America, when you go for your concealed carry permit, you take an extensive course. I agree you should have to do the same for a handgun, along with the mental evaluation by a psychiatrist. Of course it would be costly, but it would save lives.

[KanchanaburiGuy]

34 minutes ago, James105 said:

It's propaganda and like most others you are susceptible to it.  You are told you need a gun to keep you safe and you believe that countries that do not allow people to legally own guns are the ones that are actually less safe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.   Every single interaction in America is made less safe by the presence of guns.    The police have to be armed as everyone else could be armed which leads to numerous accidental shootings.    Even the most simple of police interactions such as stopping someone for speeding becomes a significantly more dangerous encounter as the police have to expect the person they are stopping will also have a gun.   

 

The primary job of a gun is to kill people, it is not to save lives.   It is very good at its primary job, which is why every other civilised country on the planet restricts their usage.    Another 4 people dead today in a hospital in the USA where - quelle surprise - guns did not stop the guns.  The shooter is only dead as he apparently shot himself.   

Pffft. Pure emotionalism. 

[Bkk Brian]

43 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Sorry, I stated facts from personal experience, and know of more from reliable friends that say the same. You can check any media account and see if it is legitimate easily. 

The very definition of anecdotal "based on personal accounts" when you are on an anonymous forum and can't provide the evidence.

 

47 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Some of the tighter gun controls you may be speaking of are already in place in America, such as extensive background checks, but the age limit does have to be raised to 21, and having a mental evaluation done by a psychiatrist is also a good idea. Banning guns would be impossible in America, as too many own them, and they are your voters, and too many are hunters, target shooters, and armed citizens, legitimate owners who aren't doing these crimes. who will not give up their guns. If anything, banning AR-15's might be done, but that will not stop someone that is determined to kill, as the Oklahoma bomber showed us. Immediate banning of higher capacity clips for semi autos will help, as well as metal detectors, CCTV,  and an escort for visitors in all schools.

You are completely missing what tighter gun controls are. Before you even get to the stage of applying for an extensive background check then all the restrictions on who can and who cannot own a gun are one of the most important along with the number of guns and which type. Its not about upping the age limit to 21 years its upping the restrictions to everyone before you even get to apply for a gun.

 

You can carry on making excuses as to why this cannot happen but the evidence shows when it does gun crimes dramatically reduce and lives will be saved far more because at the moment its the wild west and the only justification people are using is that you want a gun to protect yourself. Get the laws and restrictions in place, you will then in time not need one.

 

Currently guns are the leading cause of death for children below the age of 18 and the US has a ratio of 120.5 firearms per 100 residents this is the height of crazy and irresponsible.

 

The UK is just as free in society as the US the only difference is in gun control, this is facts and evidence:

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Okay, but.......... 

 

* Which of those countries STARTED with there being 20% more guns than people?

 

* Which of those countries taught from middle school up, that owning guns is a person's RIGHT?* (See below) 

 

* Which of those countries has pounded into its citizens' brains their whole lives that Individual Freedom & Choice......... are more important than........... government control. That Individual Freedom & Choice are, in fact, the most important things! 

 

It's great that you can point to countries where controls have succeeded. But what you can't do  is point to any countries that resemble the United States.......... where these controls have succeeded! Because there aren't any! 

 

It's Apples and. Oranges. - - - - -

Yes, we can point to Apples and Oranges and relate them as "fruit." It's nice that they have that in common.

 

But knowing that Apples are sweet right now, tells us nothing about whether Oranges will be! This........... despite the fact that both are "fruit." 

 

The "evidence" of other countries is meaningless............. unless those other countries had similar circumstances to those that exist in America, today. 

 

None

Ever

Have! 

 

Apples and Oranges! No one who has ever succeeded............ has ever faced our difficulties. And that means that no one else's "success"........... can be used as proof of anything!

 

Cheers!

 

-----------------

-----------------

 

* (When something is a RIGHT, taking it away is a big deal. As a rule, it is always wrong to take away RIGHTS, whether an individual does it, or a government.

 

Both our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights effectively say that Rights are tantamount to "Sacred Ground"............ You don't go there unless it is absolutely necessary. And even if it's NECESSARY.......... you're STILL going to meet with a great deal of resistance!

 

Americans, on the whole, view gun ownership as a RIGHT!

 

Taking away such a Right........... would be seen as striking a blow to the very foundations of our society!) 

More convoluted excuses.................

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

 It doesn't matter what others tell us because we have our own minds and don't believe what others tell us unless we see proof or it makes sense to us. 

There is the source of the problems

[fredwiggy]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The very definition of anecdotal "based on personal accounts" when you are on an anonymous forum and can't provide the evidence.

 

You are completely missing what tighter gun controls are. Before you even get to the stage of applying for an extensive background check then all the restrictions on who can and who cannot own a gun are one of the most important along with the number of guns and which type. Its not about upping the age limit to 21 years its upping the restrictions to everyone before you even get to apply for a gun.

 

You can carry on making excuses as to why this cannot happen but the evidence shows when it does gun crimes dramatically reduce and lives will be saved far more because at the moment its the wild west and the only justification people are using is that you want a gun to protect yourself. Get the laws and restrictions in place, you will then in time not need one.

 

Currently guns are the leading cause of death for children below the age of 18 and the US has a ratio of 120.5 firearms per 100 residents this is the height of crazy and irresponsible.

 

The UK is just as free in society as the US the only difference is in gun control, this is facts and evidence:

 

 

 

 

One of the things you must consider is that you do NOT know anyone in an online forum, what they do, what they are, or what they know. Assuming makes you look naive. I don't miss anything like you think. Like I said, I sold guns for years, in Texas, and have been a gun owner since 1974, and have known thousands of other individuals that are gun owners. Background checks are restrictions, as is upping the age to 21. You have to read all of what others post and not nit pick through them, because you miss a lot. Do you think someone who has sold guns, been a hunter for 48 years and has been in the business doesn't know about other countries and their restrictions, the amount of crime in a country where I lived 62 years, the amount of guns owned by Americans, and the fact that most legitimate gun owners are not doing these crimes? Black and white thinking doesn't work in any relationship or debate. There are a lot of things to consider here, and the population of America is a major one. No one can miss that most mass shootings are happening in America, and that's a problem that needs to be solved. The UK is far from being immune from violent crime, as is all other countries. This isn't to defend America about gun crime. I know what's been going on since Kennedy was shot when I was 7. There are a lot more people in America, and for that reason alone, there is more crime. Yes, gun crime is high here, but it isn't the highest............

Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

1. El Salvador — 36.78
2. Venezuela — 33.27
3. Guatemala — 29.06
4. Colombia — 26.36
5. Brazil — 21.93
6. Bahamas — 21.52
7. Honduras — 20.15
8. U.S. Virgin Islands — 19.40
9. Puerto Rico — 18.14
10. Mexico — 16.41..............................Again, unlike your thinking about me, I know about the gun crime in the US. Mass shootings have to stop, but banning guns won't because of the before stated reasons, so what do you do? You can ban AR-15's and it will help some, but it won't stop the problem.

[James105]

9 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Pffft. Pure emotionalism. 

Numbers, statistics and data are not emotional things and in this case are not on your side.  

 

By every single metric you care to look at, if you really wanted to save lives you would want to make the ability to buy and own a gun significantly more onerous than it currently is in America.   Of course this would result in less gun sales and less money for the NRA and we start to get back to why the NRA wants to convince you that owning multiple guns is the only way to be safe in America.   They definitely do not want you looking at the data from other countries which exposes this lie for what it is. 

[fredwiggy]

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There is the source of the problems

You seem to miss the real source of all problems. Mental illness and narcissism is the source. When you stop them, you stop crime. Problem is, it will never stop because mental illnesses are inherited with the exception of narcissism, which is mostly learned and will and has increased because of the breakdown of families. Something which has been getting worse for centuries and which IS the problem. Yes, banning all guns will decrease crimes with guns, but it will increase crimes against people, burglaries, robberies, rapes and the like, because there will be no defense against these crimes besides the police, who are already overloaded with crimes and can't be everywhere 24/7. Guns will always be in the hands of criminals, and with no deterrent other crimes will increase, as your surveys don't show. Gun crimes have gone down in the UK, but violent crime has increased. That's just listing one country and not picking on the UK

Edited June 2, 2022 by fredwiggy

[James105]

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

One of the things you must consider is that you do NOT know anyone in an online forum, what they do, what they are, or what they know. Assuming makes you look naive. I don't miss anything like you think. Like I said, I sold guns for years, in Texas, and have been a gun owner since 1974, and have known thousands of other individuals that are gun owners. Background checks are restrictions, as is upping the age to 21. You have to read all of what others post and not nit pick through them, because you miss a lot. Do you think someone who has sold guns, been a hunter for 48 years and has been in the business doesn't know about other countries and their restrictions, the amount of crime in a country where I lived 62 years, the amount of guns owned by Americans, and the fact that most legitimate gun owners are not doing these crimes? Black and white thinking doesn't work in any relationship or debate. There are a lot of things to consider here, and the population of America is a major one. No one can miss that most mass shootings are happening in America, and that's a problem that needs to be solved. The UK is far from being immune from violent crime, as is all other countries. This isn't to defend America about gun crime. I know what's been going on since Kennedy was shot when I was 7. There are a lot more people in America, and for that reason alone, there is more crime. Yes, gun crime is high here, but it isn't the highest............

Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

1. El Salvador — 36.78
2. Venezuela — 33.27
3. Guatemala — 29.06
4. Colombia — 26.36
5. Brazil — 21.93
6. Bahamas — 21.52
7. Honduras — 20.15
8. U.S. Virgin Islands — 19.40
9. Puerto Rico — 18.14
10. Mexico — 16.41..............................Again, unlike your thinking about me, I know about the gun crime in the US. Mass shootings have to stop, but banning guns won't because of the before stated reasons, so what do you do? You can ban AR-15's and it will help some, but it won't stop the problem.

Oops, looks like you accidentally forgot to post the first list from here:

 

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

1. Brazil — 49,436
2. United States — 37,038
3. Venezuela — 28,515
4. Mexico — 22,116
5. India — 14,710
6. Colombia — 13,169
7. Philippines — 9,267
8. Guatemala — 5,980

Weird that there are no European countries on either of these lists where strict gun control is implemented - must be a coincidence.  

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

One of the things you must consider is that you do NOT know anyone in an online forum, what they do, what they are, or what they know. Assuming makes you look naive. I don't miss anything like you think. Like I said, I sold guns for years, in Texas, and have been a gun owner since 1974, and have known thousands of other individuals that are gun owners. Background checks are restrictions, as is upping the age to 21. You have to read all of what others post and not nit pick through them, because you miss a lot. Do you think someone who has sold guns, been a hunter for 48 years and has been in the business doesn't know about other countries and their restrictions, the amount of crime in a country where I lived 62 years, the amount of guns owned by Americans, and the fact that most legitimate gun owners are not doing these crimes? Black and white thinking doesn't work in any relationship or debate. There are a lot of things to consider here, and the population of America is a major one. No one can miss that most mass shootings are happening in America, and that's a problem that needs to be solved. The UK is far from being immune from violent crime, as is all other countries. This isn't to defend America about gun crime. I know what's been going on since Kennedy was shot when I was 7. There are a lot more people in America, and for that reason alone, there is more crime. Yes, gun crime is high here, but it isn't the highest............

Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

1. El Salvador — 36.78
2. Venezuela — 33.27
3. Guatemala — 29.06
4. Colombia — 26.36
5. Brazil — 21.93
6. Bahamas — 21.52
7. Honduras — 20.15
8. U.S. Virgin Islands — 19.40
9. Puerto Rico — 18.14
10. Mexico — 16.41..............................Again, unlike your thinking about me, I know about the gun crime in the US. Mass shootings have to stop, but banning guns won't because of the before stated reasons, so what do you do? You can ban AR-15's and it will help some, but it won't stop the problem.

Yes you, repeated your personal experience many times on this forum for all to see and I'm sure it won't be the last.

 

Now back to verifiable facts.

 

Your list provided shows just how poorly the US is doing against most developed countries. Its a pity such a defeatist attitude shown by so many ends up getting nothing done while the murders keep piling up.  I suggest you look at the evidence of other countries but I know you won't because of your earlier remark. Such a sad situation. 

[fredwiggy]

7 minutes ago, James105 said:

Oops, looks like you accidentally forgot to post the first list from here:

 

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

1. Brazil — 49,436
2. United States — 37,038
3. Venezuela — 28,515
4. Mexico — 22,116
5. India — 14,710
6. Colombia — 13,169
7. Philippines — 9,267
8. Guatemala — 5,980

Weird that there are no European countries on either of these lists where strict gun control is implemented - must be a coincidence.  

I didn't miss anything. I listed the highest total deaths from guns.                 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/26/fatal-shootings-have-risen-in-sweden-despite-fall-across-europe-report-finds

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

You seem to miss the real source of all problems. Mental illness and narcissism is the source. When you stop them, you stop crime. Problem is, it will never stop because mental illnesses are inherited with the exception of narcissism, which is mostly learned and will and has increased because of the breakdown of families. Something which has been getting worse for centuries and which IS the problem. Yes, banning all guns will decrease crimes with guns, but it will increase crimes against people, burglaries, robberies, rapes and the like, because there will be no defense against these crimes besides the police, who are already overloaded with crimes and can't be everywhere 24/7. Guns will always be in the hands of criminals, and with no deterrent other crimes will increase, as your surveys don't show. Gun crimes have gone down in the UK, but violent crime has increased. That's just listing one country and not picking on the UK

Off topic unless you want a debate on psychology and a complete deflection on your remark. 

 

 

[fredwiggy]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Off topic unless you want a debate on psychology and a complete deflection on your remark. 

 

 

Actually on topic because it's the reason it's happening.