Guarantees from the contractor?

[OneMoreFarang]

Some of you will know that I renovate a condominium unit from scratch.

Now I think I found a good contractor who will obviously also hire subcontractors.

He has a good reputation and did good work in other projects and in principle I have a good feeling about hiring him.

It's likely that we will make a contract soon. Until now I have a rough estimate but no detailed proposed contract from him

I was told already that he will guarantee the quality of work and if there is a problem he will fix it - and that will be part of the contract.

 

Now I wonder how such contract would look like. I.e. if the tiles fall from the walls then it's easy, fix it!

But how about i.e. the quality of the work for the floor tiles? I.e. one tile is maybe a little higher than the next tile. As far as I know it can't be 100% flat because the tiles are not 100% flat. But is 1mm difference too much? Or 3mm or 5mm? And how about i.e. grout lines between tiles? I.e. maybe it's 2mm between two tiles and then 5mm between other tiles. What are the acceptable margins? And is it usual and/or necessary to write all these details into a contact (in Thailand)?

I don't want to be in a situation where I look at the finished work and I say this is substandard and the contractor tells me that is normal and acceptable.

What is your experience?

 

This is not just about tiles. But I think tiles are a good example for "a little" not good. And it is huge headache and cost to do the floor tiles again. What to do to make sure I get top quality (except from hiring an expert)?

[worgeordie]

Any guarantees need to be written in blood , your

blood , if the contractor says he will fix problems ,

how long would you like guarantee for ,6 months ,

a year ,  joking aside I hope he stands by what he

says, but once he has final payment , for many

builders that's it ... good luck ,

P.S. you also need to be there and keep an eye on

them at all times, anything you feel not right ,get them

to rectify it ,there and then.

 

regards worgeordie

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

Any guarantees need to be written in blood , your

blood , if the contractor says he will fix problems ,

how long would you like guarantee for ,6 months ,

a year ,  joking aside I hope he stands by what he

says, but once he has final payment , for many

builders that's it ... good luck ,

P.S. you also need to be there and keep an eye on

them at all times, anything you feel not right ,get them

to rectify it ,there and then.

 

regards worgeordie

I will be there, every day, because I live in another unit in the same building.

 

Coming back to the contract: I understand that is unusual or impossible if Somchai does a job. But there are serious contraction companies out there who build whole hotels, whole new condominiums, etc. I would expect that the people who spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a building will make sure there are guarantees. How do that do that?

 

[worgeordie]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I will be there, every day, because I live in another unit in the same building.

 

Coming back to the contract: I understand that is unusual or impossible if Somchai does a job. But there are serious contraction companies out there who build whole hotels, whole new condominiums, etc. I would expect that the people who spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a building will make sure there are guarantees. How do that do that?

 

Maybe they hold a % of the value of the contract back for a

period of time, that would be more in big contracts , I hope

the Government had that in force for the new Parliament .

regards Worgeordie 

[LosLobo]

I just went thru the process of remotely contracting some minor tiling work in Thailand.

 

Don't assume anything or leave anything to chance. Beside plans you need detail drawings of all the work. Then you need to walk thru everything personally in detail with the builder.

 

My project was very informal no contract etc but I can assist with some general tiling specification information.

 

There are two main types of tiles rectified and non rectified. The rectified ones have been machined after firing and generally have grout lines of 1-2mm. Non rectified are au natural and generally have 3-4 mm spacing. You will need to specify the exact grout/colour size etc.

 

Tiles need to be levelled with tabs and levelling pliers and gaps with appropriate sized spacers. The levelling criteria is dependent on the tile type, surface etc. Tiles come in various surface finishes. Bathrooms and wet area floors should not have gross finishes.
I have varying surfaces between the main bathroom area and the shower wet area floor. Make sure tiles have the same batch number, as colour can vary from batch to batch.

 

Good Luck with your project!

[Dante99]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't want to be in a situation where I look at the finished work and I say this is substandard and the contractor tells me that is normal and acceptable.

Simple, then you do this

 

3 hours ago, worgeordie said:

you also need to be there and keep an eye on

them at all times, anything you feel not right ,get them

to rectify it ,there and then.

Which you say you will do

 

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I will be there, every day

So what again is your problem?

 

 

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

But is 1mm difference too much? Or 3mm or 5mm? And how about i.e. grout lines between tiles? I.e. maybe it's 2mm between two tiles and then 5mm between other tiles. What are the acceptable margins?

Oh so you do not know what the standards of quality are but you want quality work.  Yes that is really a problem.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

13 hours ago, Dante99 said:

Simple, then you do this

 

Which you say you will do

 

So what again is your problem?

 

 

Oh so you do not know what the standards of quality are but you want quality work.  Yes that is really a problem.

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

I get your point.

Let say it like this: I have an idea about good quality and bad quality. I have no clear idea about the middle ground.

I.e. I know tiles will not be 100% level. I guess 1mm height difference from tile to tile is acceptable. But that's exactly that, a guess. So if anybody here knows more details I like to know. This is why I asked.

 

And about being there. I am pretty sure I will look at their work at least once a day, maybe a couple of times. But I won't see how they install every single tile. And I don't want to stand behind them and look at everything in real time. 

 

[Dante99]

21 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Let say it like this: I have an idea about good quality and bad quality. I have no clear idea about the middle ground.

You write funny.  "I have an idea about" but you really do not know about, right?

 

If you know, oops, have an idea about good and bad, the middle ground is easy, it is simply what is in-between.  Is that difficult?  Why do you need to know anything about the in-between, you either have good or you redo whatever is not good, right?

 

 

24 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And about being there. I am pretty sure I will look at their work at least once a day, maybe a couple of times. But I won't see how they install every single tile. And I don't want to stand behind them and look at everything in real time. 

 

Once a day will not be enough, a couple of times too few.

 

You are getting stupid to say that you won't see how they install every single tile and that you do not want to stand behind them all the time.  

 

You smoke a lot of sheet to come up with that kind of dialog?  Or just half drunk all the time?

[KhunLA]

Pay as the work progresses.  Our present build, had 6 payment schedules.

 

One main thing, though failed on our contract, is finish date, and penalty per day if not finished on time.  Make that ฿1000 baht a day.

 

We are months beyond our finish date (฿400 a day) and no expectation for compensating.  Builder did give the wife a worker, to assist with her off contract projects, so helping for over a month+ already.

 

A very generous 10 month contract, is now 17 months long.  Builder decided to do 8 ish houses at once, when having a crew for 2.  At least 6 added after our contract, realizing how bad she screwed up.

 

Work has been fine, and wife is there to point out correction, and I'd recommend the builder, if not for the length of time it took.  Should have been a 4-6 month build.

 

Make the last payment, a big one, and keep until satisfied.

 

Previous builder, previous house, was also lacking any concept of finishing time, and had to get a lawyer to send him a letter, with intent to sue if not returning to finish, which he did when receiving.  Thought he was bad, time wise, but now this builder, she's making him look really good ????

 

He did not get his final payment, though only ฿20k, which he didn't come around to get it.  Saw him at Global afterwards, and we actually like each other, and stated I had to touch up a few things, and he said keep the final payment.  Probably knew he wasn't getting it anyway.  Lawyer letter cost ฿10k.

 

Present builder, probably owes us a credit, for the final payment, as we paid for some supplies, since she has a cash flow problem, so don't think there is a final payment for her.   She's about a week or so from finishing, but since workers only show up 1 day a week, it might take a few weeks ????  Both did quality build, for a great price, just frustrating being on 'Thai time'.  Both < ฿10k m², and overall, quite the bargain.

[KIngsofisaan]

In the US they use self-leveling mud to install the tiles evenly.

 

If you were smart, you would be there when they install the first couple of rows and then you will know if they are all level or not.

 

If you don't like it, stop them right there and talk to the contractor.

 

If they are professional tile installers, you might be surprised how much tile they can lay in one shift. 

 

You don't want to show up at the end of the first day and find it is all wrong.

 

In my house in the USA, which is all tile, every single tile is even and level

[Reposed]

19 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

But how about i.e. the quality of the work for the floor tiles? I.e. one tile is maybe a little higher than the next tile. As far as I know it can't be 100% flat because the tiles are not 100% flat.

Uneven tile edges is called lippage. Unpleasant to walk on as well as unsightly, it can be avoided in one or both of two ways:

 

Use rectified tiles. These are first fired, then cut to exacting dimensions. Very small grout lines are possible. (Some setters will try to butt tiles against each other. Bad idea; changes in temp/humidity conditions can cause, at minimum, edge damage, at worse, buckling.)

 

The other option (with or without rectified tiles) is to use leveling clips. 

 

 

 

The ones here have wedges (orange) far too big that actually do the opposite of what they are intended to do. Nonetheless, they will (in sufficient quantity) bring the edges flush. Clips come in varying thickness (1mm, 1.5mm, etc)

 

Large tile format is in style, and generally a quicker install.

 

BTW, level and flat are two different things. A floor does not need to be level to look good and have no lippage. The tile can be flat and flush, without being level.

 

Have the setters butter the back of the tiles for better adhesion, sound deadening, and durability. Use the proper size notched trowel, and insist they notch in one direction only, as opposed to swirling (in photo above). Swirling does not allow air to escape. 

 

Before hiring, always go inspect prior jobs. Tearing up installed tile is a nightmare.

 

 

 

 

[Bill97]

Have you ever seen leveling clips used in Thailand?

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

You are getting stupid to say that you won't see how they install every single tile and that you do not want to stand behind them all the time.  

 

You smoke a lot of sheet to come up with that kind of dialog?  Or just half drunk all the time?

Maybe you should think again about what you write.

The idea here is to give advice and not tell those other guys how stupide they are.

You might be smart but please don't think everybody else is a moron.

[Cake Monster]

20 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I will be there, every day, because I live in another unit in the same building.

 

Coming back to the contract: I understand that is unusual or impossible if Somchai does a job. But there are serious contraction companies out there who build whole hotels, whole new condominiums, etc. I would expect that the people who spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a building will make sure there are guarantees. How do that do that?

 

They simply withhold payments for a set period of time which allows for any defects to be hopefully found and rectified.

Being large Contracts they are able to do this with their " Buying Power "

There are usually penalty clauses written into these kind of Contracts also 

IE for late delivery, poor workmanship , poor materials Etc .

 

[Reposed]

59 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Have you ever seen leveling clips used in Thailand?

Well, they sell them at Home Pro and Global, so they are being used by someone for  something, though they sure didn't use any at EmQuartier. Horrible job.

 

Having said that, poor craftsman don't want to use them because it takes time.

 

I hired a guy to tile the patio behind my house. He showed up, I handed him the clips, he said no, I said bye.

 

I'm using them in my bathroom right now. The size of the wedges here (4x as big as the US) makes them useless for trim tiles, and awkward for adjustment, but they do work.

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, Reposed said:

I hired a guy to tile the patio behind my house. He showed up, I handed him the clips, he said no, I said bye.

I saw many YouTube videos about tiling - from professionals.

It seems the leveling systems are necessary for big tiles. For small(er) tiles it seems it's not necessary to use them.

I am just reporting what I saw in many videos. I have no personal experience with them.

 

[Reposed]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I saw many YouTube videos about tiling - from professionals.

It seems the leveling systems are necessary for big tiles. For small(er) tiles it seems it's not necessary to use them.

I am just reporting what I saw in many videos. I have no personal experience with them.

 

I've done hundreds of tile projects over the years, and I always use them, even on small tiles. Once a setter has experience with them, they actually make the job go faster as there is no fiddling with the tile; set it and wedge it and keep going. Besides, some method of spacing must be used, so might as well use clips. And if a setter is going to use clips, might as well insert a wedge. Clips are used once and tossed, wedges are reusable.

 

But everyone has their own way.

 

I myself would not do floor tile without them. They are cheap insurance for a good job.

 

The patio tiles are 36" x 36" rectified porcelain. I used 1.5 mm clips. Perfectly flush.

 

 

[rumak]

very very ...very ... difficult to advise "how to protect from a bad experience" .     Not faulting your looking at youtube videos but that can only give you a basic understanding of tiling or whatever.  (good for a start).

Now....  this is THAILAND .   And construction and workers are not perfect.   In fact, all over the world there are problems with building and builders.   

      There is nothing like experience !   Nothing.    

If you have not been through a previous build or renovation it is not much different than a relationship with a thai girl.... or any thai situation.  Hopefully you have some experience dealing with Thais as everything here GREATLY  depends on how you can interact with the people you are dealing with.    The SWEET talk and smiles from a contractor are similar to those of a lady .   One soon finds out that things somehow do not go as planned.

 

Unless you have some people behind you that are more influential then the builder than doing anything is a bit stressfull .  you must try to keep an eye on things,   not be too much of a PITA,  in other words.... learn as you go.  Not being experienced in how tiles or plumbing or whatever is definitely a handicap .   I learned by doing.   That means there were mistakes,   and how i handled them was sometimes a mistake (more so at the beginning of course) 

 

DO the best you can.   Yes,  pay in installments ( though usually for BIG jobs ) .   Try to stay calm  haha    but firm .   You know,  like with your girlfriends  ( i hope)

good luck

 

btw:   use only Grade A  tiles as others are not uniform

Edited July 9, 2022 by rumak

[Bill97]

34 minutes ago, rumak said:

very very ...very ... difficult to advise "how to protect from a bad experience" .     Not faulting your looking at youtube videos but that can only give you a basic understanding of tiling or whatever.  (good for a start).

Now....  this is THAILAND .   And construction and workers are not perfect.   In fact, all over the world there are problems with building and builders.   

      There is nothing like experience !   Nothing.    

If you have not been through a previous build or renovation it is not much different than a relationship with a thai girl.... or any thai situation.  Hopefully you have some experience dealing with Thais as everything here GREATLY  depends on how you can interact with the people you are dealing with.    The SWEET talk and smiles from a contractor are similar to those of a lady .   One soon finds out that things somehow do not go as planned.

 

Unless you have some people behind you that are more influential then the builder than doing anything is a bit stressfull .  you must try to keep an eye on things,   not be too much of a PITA,  in other words.... learn as you go.  Not being experienced in how tiles or plumbing or whatever is definitely a handicap .   I learned by doing.   That means there were mistakes,   and how i handled them was sometimes a mistake (more so at the beginning of course) 

 

DO the best you can.   Yes,  pay in installments ( though usually for BIG jobs ) .   Try to stay calm  haha    but firm .   You know,  like with your girlfriends  ( i hope)

good luck

 

btw:   use only Grade A  tiles as others are not uniform

So he is almost certainly going to get into deep guano at least several times.  Can’t miss it.

[sanuk711]

I am renovating 3 townhouses my wife has--it wont be to the standard you are doing-- In ISSAN that would be a dream, unless I brought guys up from BKK, & the extra price would not warrant it, but they will be to the standard of all the housing around here, which I think is good--they are very close to the center of town 2 bed/2 BR..2 floors--so here they will sell for about $us30k.

I think what I have learnt doing different building/Reno's in Thailand is that, I ask for quote on labor only. A lot of the stuff they are saying they need--I can get 15-sometimes even 20% less then what they would have put in the "all in Price" & importantly where I do need a quality component--I know I have got it, not a lower one & been charged. ..it's also easy to work what they expect to be paid by dividing the days they say the job will take by the labor only quote.

This might all be irrelevant  to your project--- so good luck with it, there is always a fair amount of heart burn in Thailand doing anything like this---so Jai  yen yen ????. 

 

[rumak]

47 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

I am renovating 3 townhouses my wife has--it wont be to the standard you are doing-- In ISSAN that would be a dream, unless I brought guys up from BKK, & the extra price would not warrant it, but they will be to the standard of all the housing around here, which I think is good--they are very close to the center of town 2 bed/2 BR..2 floors--so here they will sell for about $us30k.

I think what I have learnt doing different building/Reno's in Thailand is that, I ask for quote on labor only. A lot of the stuff they are saying they need--I can get 15-sometimes even 20% less then what they would have put in the "all in Price" & importantly where I do need a quality component--I know I have got it, not a lower one & been charged. ..it's also easy to work what they expect to be paid by dividing the days they say the job will take by the labor only quote.

This might all be irrelevant  to your project--- so good luck with it, there is always a fair amount of heart burn in Thailand doing anything like this---so Jai  yen yen ????. 

 

good sensible post .  as you say,   i have found that the standard of building is pretty decent.

Here in CM  area most of the labor is from burma (thai yai generally)  and they are good workers and better to deal with than the thais that i had do work many years ago (mostly attitude wise)

As sanuk does,  so do I .  Get quote for LABOR  only ,  and for the same reason.  It is a bit more work for me but I know what materials i am getting.   Otherwise "problems"  develop when the builder uses stuff that you think are not good.   

Of course it seems that OMF  will have quite a time figuring out what he wants   LOL

 

  

[OneMoreFarang]

Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate it.

I have a Thai project manager who manages construction projects since years. And I know her since years. I am confident that she will solve many issues even without any input from me.

But even when I trust her it can't hurt that I know myself what to expect.

I live and work in Thailand since decades and I have some experience with working with Thais. But my experience is mostly with people in offices and not so much with construction workers.

I know it is necessary to supervise them. But I also know it's not a good idea to be the farang who stands next to them and pretends to know everything better. It's difficult.

I guess I have to wait for the first formal quotation with the details. Let's see.

 

P.S.: I just asked my project manager if the tiling specialist will use the clips for floor and/or walls. Her answer: "They always use clips."  I like that answer. 

[473geo]

As said above, difficult to advise, we are completing 2 addition ensuites, luckily hired a guy with his team usually works in Bangkok, home because of covid, gone back when completed our shell windows and doors.

The foundation is incredibly solid they drove a tractor over the wall bases to assist with the spreading and compacting infill before laying the floor, I was around all the time, not really watching but more observing if that makes sense, I had no need to watch the contractor on labour only, picked up the detail 

My brother in law has done plumbing and tiling on the first part of our home and I have no cause for complaint 

Again labour only, we deal with all purchase requisition often we will be advised where is value for money

In short as Rumak states I know these guys, they will do a good job, how can I advise anybody, I just leave them to it, know costs are reasonable and the job will be similar, I don't need ideal home quality, so there again my view, expectation, experience is only really valid for myself 

 

But yes I can say labour only quotes appear to work well, perhaps because they can go for quality materials to enable a better job

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

22 minutes ago, rumak said:

Of course it seems that OMF  will have quite a time figuring out what he wants   LOL

I didn't set myself under any time pressure. In the moment I live in a rented place. The renovation is in another unit from the same building. I know it will take some time and I don't put myself under pressure that everything must be finished by date x. Quality is more important than getting it done.

And I spend a considerable part of my time to learn about things before I buy them and before I hire people to do things. That is no guarantee that all will be fine, but at least I try to be prepared.

Let's see.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

So he is almost certainly going to get into deep guano at least several times.  Can’t miss it.

I had to look that up and this is what I found. Looks interesting. ????

 

[rumak]

17 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

P.S.: I just asked my project manager if the tiling specialist will use the clips for floor and/or walls. Her answer: "They always use clips."  I like that answer. 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by rumak

[rumak]

19 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

xx

Edited July 9, 2022 by rumak