16 hours ago, riclag said:

Does a political establishment who has been obsessed with Trump ,provoke and initiate uncharted unhinged  radical never before seen actions against a former POTUS!

 

My takeaway.You will find in litigations going forward what was good for the goose will still be good for the goose ! I think many of Trumps team are going to use past privileges afforded the office as a defense! Imop

 

Whats the trigger word for this constitutional crisis the doj/ fbi has unleashed

“unprecedented” ! 

Close to  250 years  of existence and so close to a election .These are radical over reaching actions imop

Did one of the previous presidents steal top secret documents before?

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

The American public views the unprecedented raid on an ex President's house rather differently than most posters here. When a MAJORITY of voters think there is a group of politicized thugs at the top of the FBI who are using the FBI … as Joe Biden‘s personal Gestapo, the country has a huge problem. This coming just when it seemed a government could not possibly get anymore incompetent and untrustworthy.....

 

"Roger Stone, an adviser to former President Donald Trump, has said there is “a group of politicized thugs at the top of the FBI who are using the FBI … as Joe Biden‘s personal Gestapo.” A majority (53%) of voters now agree with Stone’s statement – up from 46% in December – including 34% who Strongly Agree. "

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/public_surveys/biden_s_gestapo_trump_raid_hurts_voter_trust_in_fbi

The top man of the FBI is a REPUBLICAN been chosen by TRUMP. 

When the majority of the voters thinks otherwise they are stupid. 

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

The top man of the FBI is a REPUBLICAN been chosen by TRUMP. 

When the majority of the voters thinks otherwise they are stupid. 

This sneering condescension is most unpleasant. People have different views on just about everything, hence the concept of a debate forum. To dub people with differing views to yourself "stupid" reflects on you more than them.

 Wray was a huge disappointment. I, for one, am interested in reviewing all his emails/mobile phone records/written documents after his house is raided in a few years time along with all the rest of them. What do his private messages reveal about his motivation for this dreadful raid?

1 minute ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

This sneering condescension is most unpleasant. People have different views on just about everything, hence the concept of a debate forum. To dub people with differing views to yourself "stupid" reflects on you more than them.

 Wray was a huge disappointment. I, for one, am interested in reviewing all his emails/mobile phone records/written documents after his house is raided in a few years time along with all the rest of them. What do his private messages reveal about his motivation for this dreadful raid?

And they in your own words, you are once again calling for the use of the DOJ against someone you regard, in this case as ‘a huge disappointment’.

 

The very politicization of the DOJ that the rightwing are, despite zero evidence, bleating about,

 

 

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And they in your own words, you are once again calling for the use of the DOJ against someone you regard, in this case as ‘a huge disappointment’.

 

The very politicization of the DOJ that the rightwing are, despite zero evidence, bleating about,

 

 

It's a bit late for that Chomper. Events on the evening of August 8th has changed American politics for ever, and yes, in a very bad way.

51 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

It's a bit late for that Chomper. Events on the evening of August 8th has changed American politics for ever, and yes, in a very bad way.

No it hasn’t.

 

A former President being held accountable to the law is a very good thing for democracy.

 

 

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No it hasn’t.

 

A former President being held accountable to the law is a very good thing for democracy.

 

 

Selective law enforcement is a very bad thing for democracy.

4 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Selective law enforcement is a very bad thing for democracy.

Please. Trump blatantly violated the very law that he signed into law about possession of documents The govt negotiated with his people for over a year to get them back. They got some back in June. His lawyer then certified that all had been returned. Somehow the govt found out that this was not the case.  At that point, what would a reasonable person expect the government to do? Just let Trump keep them? Why has no other President had a problem obey the predecessor to the current law. Trump's V.P. managed to scrupulously obey the law that Trump violated. Do you believe that there's an unwritten law that ex-Presidents are immune from criminal investigations? 

I do agree with you that Trump was singled out for special treatment. What other citizen in such a case would be allowed to negotiate with the government for over a year?

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

This sneering condescension is most unpleasant. People have different views on just about everything, hence the concept of a debate forum. To dub people with differing views to yourself "stupid" reflects on you more than them.

 Wray was a huge disappointment. I, for one, am interested in reviewing all his emails/mobile phone records/written documents after his house is raided in a few years time along with all the rest of them. What do his private messages reveal about his motivation for this dreadful raid?

Conspiracy theories deserve ridicule and derision. In the history of mankind, not one has ever been proven to be true.

 

Actual conspiracies involve very few people who keep their mouth shut and the time span is very short. That's not what we are seeing here.

3 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

The American public views the unprecedented raid on an ex President's house rather differently than most posters here. When a MAJORITY of voters think there is a group of politicized thugs at the top of the FBI who are using the FBI … as Joe Biden‘s personal Gestapo, the country has a huge problem. This coming just when it seemed a government could not possibly get anymore incompetent and untrustworthy.....

 

"Roger Stone, an adviser to former President Donald Trump, has said there is “a group of politicized thugs at the top of the FBI who are using the FBI … as Joe Biden‘s personal Gestapo.” A majority (53%) of voters now agree with Stone’s statement – up from 46% in December – including 34% who Strongly Agree. "

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/public_surveys/biden_s_gestapo_trump_raid_hurts_voter_trust_in_fbi

"The American public views the unprecedented raid on an ex President's house.."

 

The Trump public fixates on the unprecedented search of an ex-President's house.

 

The American public fixates on the unprecedented theft of government documents by a departing President who then refused to return them after months of negotiations.

 

The Trump public believes their cult leader can do no wrong.

 

The American public doesn't believe former Presidents are above the law.  They also take anything said by convicted felon Roger Stone with a huge grain of salt.

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Did one of the previous presidents steal top secret documents before?

Do you have proof?

7 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Do you have proof?

It was not until after Nixon that it became illegal for presidents to keep documents from their incumbency. No president before Trump has even been accused of doing so.

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It was not until after Nixon that it became illegal for presidents to keep documents from their incumbency. No president before Trump has even been accused of doing so.

That's' not true. About a week ago or so Trump accused Obama of doing so. Of course, since the accusation was coming from Trump, it turned out to be utterly false.

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That's' not true. About a week ago or so Trump accused Obama of doing so. Of course, since the accusation was coming from Trump, it turned out to be utterly false.

Well in hindsight I guess I meant credibly accused. Trump never turned up a list of any documents stolen by Obama. It's a child's defense to argue that "he did it first", especially when it turns out to be a lie.

 

Oh, I remember. Yeah. Obama stole 33 million documents. Riiiight.

Edited August 21, 20223 yr by ozimoron

1 hour ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Selective law enforcement is a very bad thing for democracy.

Where is your evidence of this being selective law enforcement?

 

Trump removed TS/SCI documents from the WH to Mar-a-Largo.
He was asked to return them. 

His lawyers filed false statements that all the documents were returned, they were not.

 

Trump is already being given far too much license, if any ordinary private citizen had removed TS/SCI documents relating to national security, they’d be in a basement somewhere having the circumstances of their theft extracted from them. 
 

But what’s the point arguing with a Trump supporter.

 

A lawfully issued search warrant gives rise to outrage.

A lawfully conducted search - more outrage.

 

If/when an indictment is handed down, there’ll be more out rage.

If/when an arrest is made there’ll be more outrage.

If and when there is a trial, there’ll be yet more outrage.

If/when there’s a conviction there’ll be even more outrage.

 

It’s all denial, lies and outrage and the occasional ‘nice country you’ve got there, shame if something happened to it’.

 

I look forward to this progressing through the criminal Justice system, so I can tick off the outrage as it arises,

20 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Do you have proof?

Do you?

4 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Roger Stone, an adviser to former President Donald Trump, has said......

Now why didn't you start the post off with that sentence so that I could just have gotten on with my life and ignored your post entirely.

I mean, how completely lost in the MAGA fog does one have to be to quote the utterly disgusting slime dwelling creature that is convict Roger Stone?!

 

Edited August 21, 20223 yr by Phoenix Rising

39 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Do you have proof?

Please do try to pay attention. It was the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) that searched the Temple of Tastelessness, not members of Aseannow.

Understand now?

Y'know, for those who think things out, there is more to this situation than merely obeying or disobeying laws.

 

Part of our position in the world relies not just on economic and military superiority, but on moral superioriry, also. We have been able to tell other countries, "Look to us for guidance; look to us to see how it should be done."

 

---------------

 

We have always been able to say, "We have never had a coup. We have never needed to force a President out of office in shame. We have never had the kind of systemic corruption that other countries......... (many countries!)...... have had." 

 

We have been able to say to other countries, "Follow our lead! Do things the way we have done---democracy, first! Of the people, by the people, for the people!---then your future will be bright!"

 

We have been able to claim a moral superiority, a philosophy  that has proven itself better than all the others! 

 

(((Nevermind the fact that much of it is provably bullpoop! It is still how we try to shine a light on ourselves!)))

 

This is how we have wanted to be perceived in the world.......... and how we HAVE BEEN  perceived in many quarters, to one degree or another.

 

But then Nixon resigns, as did his VP, Agnew. And Clinton gets Impeached. And Trump gets Impeached TWICE.

 

Two of our last four presidents have been Impeached!

 

Ultimately, what is on the line is not just whether Trump committed crimes and will be held accountable for them. There is something MUCH BIGGER on the line, too!

 

And it's that MUCH BIGGER situation that explains the whys of delays and procedures that seem, on the face, both illogical and confusing.

 

The people who make these decisions......... who take these actions........... don't have the luxury of JUST considering the "law and order" aspects of these circumstances, these events, like you and I have. 

 

They have to also consider how their actions might affect the very foundational principles of our Nation............ and how those philosopies and principles are perceived by others in the wider world.

 

After all, what answer can we give when trying to advise someone toward an open, democratic system, when they can respond, "Sorry, but it seems your  system is incapable of keeping crooks out of office! Why would we ever want to emulate THAT?"

 

Because they're bound to be far more impressed by our inability to keep crooks OUT........... than they'll ever be by the fact we were able to hunt them down, afterwards!

 

Cuz, you see, the thing about "Too little, too late" is........... it's too late!

 

It is, as the saying goes, "Closing the barn door......... after the horse has already escaped!"

 

So, do we just ignore it? Do we let him get away with it? No.

 

But we don't move forward without keeping in mind that......... for our Nation........ there is a very important International Relations BIGGER PICTURE involved, with both Cause-and-Effect and Unintended Consequences to consider!

 

--------------

 

This is yet another of those situations where if you think the answers are easy........... it really just means you haven't thought it out far enough, yet!

 

Cheers!

3 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

This sneering condescension is most unpleasant. People have different views on just about everything, hence the concept of a debate forum. To dub people with differing views to yourself "stupid" reflects on you more than them.

 Wray was a huge disappointment. I, for one, am interested in reviewing all his emails/mobile phone records/written documents after his house is raided in a few years time along with all the rest of them. What do his private messages reveal about his motivation for this dreadful raid?

How do you know Wray is going to hide official documents in his home after leaving office, and refuse to return them? Do you have a crystal ball? ????

3 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

This sneering condescension is most unpleasant. People have different views on just about everything, hence the concept of a debate forum. To dub people with differing views to yourself "stupid" reflects on you more than them.

 Wray was a huge disappointment. I, for one, am interested in reviewing all his emails/mobile phone records/written documents after his house is raided in a few years time along with all the rest of them. What do his private messages reveal about his motivation for this dreadful raid?

What gives you to think that YOU have a right to know what is going on?

 

It is in the hands of the DoJ.

 

Why do you seem to think that  you are more important than anybody else?

 

If you wish to know what they know and are not releasing to you or to anybody else for that matter, I suggest that you contact them and DEMAND an explanation. Please post on this thread what you want from them and also publish their reply.

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Did one of the previous presidents steal top secret documents before?

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

6 minutes ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

When the law says something has to be stored in place A and they are stored in place B and the person who caused them to be stored there disputes that fact then they are stolen.

10 minutes ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

He doesn't hold office anymore so he has no constitutional privileges of office. Understand?

13 minutes ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

"A source close to former President Donald Trump told Fox News...." Also an anonymous source....

 

Anyway, the chronology of interactions between Trum, NARA and FBI will likely be shown when the affidavit is published, so I guess we'll have a more precise account then.

6 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

He doesn't hold office anymore so he has no constitutional privileges of office. Understand?

Furthermore, even if he had duly declassfied the documents, he would still be breaking the law. He has lifetime access to those documents but not the right of possession.

15 minutes ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

When you have something that does not belong to you, you do not get to negotiate its release, when its not returned by request or by subpoena, expect a knock at the door from the FBI, especially when it involves potential violations of the Espionage Act.

On 8/20/2022 at 2:10 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

But nice to see even Giuliani can occasionally return to the reality based universe.

For a short while anyway!!

6 minutes ago, xylophone said:

For a short while anyway!!

Usually before 10 am I think.

35 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

He doesn't hold office anymore so he has no constitutional privileges of office. Understand?

Lol For 4 years when he was in office his detractors were constantly badgering him and his rights as the office holder

Understand