Hungary can ‘no longer be considered a full democracy,’ says EU Parliament

[Eric Loh]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:09 AM, puchooay said:

My comment was one based on economics, not politics.

 

Unions simply don't work. They would have a slim chance if all members were on an even keel, had the same economic views and strengths and all had something to offer. Sadly, this is never true. EU has shown this and ASEAN is showing it too.

 

 

 

 

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EU and ASEAN are completely different in their political orientation. They may share some commonalities like free trade and multilateralism but don’t have the same ecosystem like common currency, legal frameworks, budget constraints etc. It wouldn’t work for Asean and better that it stay as a collaborative entity. 

[puchooay]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:27 AM, Eric Loh said:

EU and ASEAN are completely different in their political orientation. They may share some commonalities like free trade and multilateralism but don’t have the same ecosystem like common currency, legal frameworks, budget constraints etc. It wouldn’t work for Asean and better that it stay as a collaborative entity. 

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They are both Unions. Both not working for the same reasons.

[Phoenix Rising]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:29 AM, puchooay said:

They are both Unions. Both not working for the same reasons.

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No, they're not.

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:09 AM, puchooay said:

My comment was one based on economics, not politics.

 

Unions simply don't work. They would have a slim chance if all members were on an even keel, had the same economic views and strengths and all had something to offer. Sadly, this is never true. EU has shown this and ASEAN is showing it too.

 

 

 

 

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I disagree. Imo the EU Single Market and Customs Union are success stories and have contributed significantly to member states' economic growth and the welfare of its' citizens.

 

In addition, as a bloc, the 27 member states are much powerful economically (and politically) on the world stage,  than they could ever hope to be individually. Sadly, the UK is discovering this as it labours to agree favourable trade deals with other nations and make its' voice heard on the international arena.

 

I agree that at a macro-economic level, monetary union (the Euro) has been a failure. Imo the venture was ill conceived and it is difficult to see how the problems can be solved without complete monetary (and fiscal union).

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:16 AM, puchooay said:

The government held a referendum. There was a majority vote, by the people, for Brexit. It was not the government's decision.

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It was the (Tory) government's decision to hold a referendum. 

 

(Not sure how "the leader" of the country felt about that????)

[candide]

  On 9/20/2022 at 8:09 AM, puchooay said:

My comment was one based on economics, not politics.

 

Unions simply don't work. They would have a slim chance if all members were on an even keel, had the same economic views and strengths and all had something to offer. Sadly, this is never true. EU has shown this and ASEAN is showing it too.

 

 

 

 

Expand  

How do you know the EU doesn't work?

 

It's impossible to know what would be the economic situation (I.e. GDP growth) of European economies without the EU. Japan did not fare better, the Brexited UK seems to fare a bit worse, the U.S. fared better, etc...

 

Economic differences between countries are a drawback (for the Eurozone), higher level of economies of scale, higher international negotiating power and influence are advantages, etc... what had the strongest impact? The drawbacks or the advantages?

 

The ASEAN is a quite different case, a "Union light" compared to the EU.

[puchooay]

  On 9/20/2022 at 9:15 AM, RayC said:

It was the (Tory) government's decision to hold a referendum. 

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Indeed it was, whilst under pressure to do so.

 

Cameron's only problem was to fail to understand the public's views.

 

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 9:33 AM, puchooay said:

Indeed it was, whilst under pressure to do so.

 

Cameron's only problem was to fail to understand the public's views.

 

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If Cameron had listened to Thatcher's advice regarding referendums, and been less concerned with bolstering his position within the Tory party, we would have avoided this Brexit fiasco.

[nauseus]

  On 9/20/2022 at 10:57 AM, RayC said:

If Cameron had listened to Thatcher's advice regarding referendums, and been less concerned with bolstering his position within the Tory party, we would have avoided this Brexit fiasco.

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After being an early supporter of the EEC, Thatcher was turning away from the EEC/EU by the late 80's, which did for her. politically. She was a Brexiteer long before 2016.

 

Cameron would have known all that but trapped himself into the referendum possibility anyway. Well done DC. 

[puchooay]

  On 9/20/2022 at 9:27 AM, candide said:

How do you know the EU doesn't work?

 

It's impossible to know what would be the economic situation (I.e. GDP growth) of European economies without the EU. Japan did not fare better, the Brexited UK seems to fare a bit worse, the U.S. fared better, etc...

 

Economic differences between countries are a drawback (for the Eurozone), higher level of economies of scale, higher international negotiating power and influence are advantages, etc... what had the strongest impact? The drawbacks or the advantages?

 

The ASEAN is a quite different case, a "Union light" compared to the EU.

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So, you are trying to disprove facts with an impossible situation. Interesting.

[candide]

  On 9/20/2022 at 12:01 PM, puchooay said:

So, you are trying to disprove facts with an impossible situation. Interesting.

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What are you talking about? Which facts?

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 11:36 AM, nauseus said:

After being an early supporter of the EEC, Thatcher was turning away from the EEC/EU by the late 80's, which did for her. politically. She was a Brexiteer long before 2016.

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Not so according to someone who worked very closely with her

 

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699

 

  On 9/20/2022 at 11:36 AM, nauseus said:

 

Cameron would have known all that but trapped himself into the referendum possibility anyway. Well done DC. 

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Cameron put his and the Tory party's needs (in that order) before those of the country.

 

The actions of May and Johnson  have made matters worse but imo the main culprit for the mess, that we find ourselves in is 'The Boy David'. 

[puchooay]

  On 9/20/2022 at 12:39 PM, RayC said:

Not so according to someone who worked very closely with her

 

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699

 

Cameron put his and the Tory party's needs (in that order) before those of the country.

 

The actions of May and Johnson  have made matters worse but imo the main culprit for the mess, that we find ourselves in is 'The Boy David'. 

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I think you'll find Cameron voted Remain. 

 

May, half heartedly, and Boris, whole heartedly, ensured that democracy prevailed.

 

If you wish to direct the blame correctly, it would be at the 52% of those who voted who voted Leave.

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 5:18 PM, puchooay said:

I think you'll find Cameron voted Remain. 

 

May, half heartedly, and Boris, whole heartedly, ensured that democracy prevailed.

 

If you wish to direct the blame correctly, it would be at the 52% of those who voted who voted Leave.

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Yet again you've misunderstood and misinterpreted one of my posts. To (hopefully) avoid any further confusion on your part, here's my full(ish) view of the Brexit process. You are, of course, perfectly entitled to disagree with my analysis. (Strap yourself in. It's a long one).

 

We can agree that Cameron campaigned for 'Remain' and therefore almost certainly voted that way. 

 

However, my point is that Cameron called the referendum when he didn't need to. Granted he was obliged to hold it once he won the 2014 general election as a commitment to do so had appeared in the Tories manifesto. However, it only appeared there because Cameron believed that 'Remain' would win. This would have quietened  - at least temporarily - the Brexit element of his party. In essence, Cameron put his own political needs above those of the country. It was an unnecessary gamble made for personal gain. We all know the result: The gamble failed; the country's divided as a result and we are at loggerheads with the EU.

 

May also gambled by calling a general election, which she hoped would strengthen her position. Again, the gamble failed. She then compounded this error by rejecting the possibility of the UK remaining in the Single market and/or Customs Union, thereby severely limiting her negotiating position.

 

Johnson managed to make a bad situation worse. Despite warnings from his allies (the DUP) that they would not support the deal he intended to sign, he went ahead and did so. Almost every political commentator warned beforehand that this would result in the NI Assembly collapsing and threaten 25 years of peace on the island of Ireland. Lo and behold, this is what transpired. Johnson then threatened to tear up an international agreement which he had signed only a year before. The only conclusion one can make about Johnson is that he was either (1) incompetent or (2) a liar (as he had no intention of honouring the terms of an agreement which he had freely entered into) ..... Phew ....

 

In summary, Cameron's decision to hold a referendum was the catalyst for this chaos and that is why I blame him.

 

Truss will have to go some to make matters worse but who knows she might succeed.

 

It is becoming clearer by the day that the 52% were sold a pup.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2022 at 9:11 AM, RayC said:

I agree that at a macro-economic level, monetary union (the Euro) has been a failure. Imo the venture was ill conceived and it is difficult to see how the problems can be solved without complete monetary (and fiscal union).

Expand  

Surely that could only be achieved by abolishing individual countries or becoming something like the USA with direct voting for the "federal" politicians, which does not happen in the EU? As much chance of that as me flying to the moon tomorrow, IMO.

[Bkk Brian]

Should have thought about that before, now face the consequences

 

Hungary appeals for time, as EU weighs hefty fund freeze

BRUSSELS (AP) — Hungary needs time and is urging its European Union partners to be “tolerant,” the country’s justice minister said Tuesday, after the bloc’s executive branch recommended suspending billions of euros in funding over concerns about democratic backsliding and the possible mismanagement of EU money.

Justice Minister Judit Varga said that Hungary has proposed 17 measures which are “capable of remedying all the concerns” expressed by European Commission. EU Budget Commissioner Johannes Hahn recommended over the weekend that 7.5 billion euros (dollars) from Hungary’s EU funds be frozen.

https://apnews.com/article/hungary-executive-branch-european-union-cce7491b9c1a6f52ec7fc228c309a9e7

 

[puchooay]

  On 9/20/2022 at 10:07 PM, RayC said:

Yet again you've misunderstood and misinterpreted one of my posts. To (hopefully) avoid any further confusion on your part, here's my full(ish) view of the Brexit process. You are, of course, perfectly entitled to disagree with my analysis. (Strap yourself in. It's a long one).

 

We can agree that Cameron campaigned for 'Remain' and therefore almost certainly voted that way. 

 

However, my point is that Cameron called the referendum when he didn't need to. Granted he was obliged to hold it once he won the 2014 general election as a commitment to do so had appeared in the Tories manifesto. However, it only appeared there because Cameron believed that 'Remain' would win. This would have quietened  - at least temporarily - the Brexit element of his party. In essence, Cameron put his own political needs above those of the country. It was an unnecessary gamble made for personal gain. We all know the result: The gamble failed; the country's divided as a result and we are at loggerheads with the EU.

 

May also gambled by calling a general election, which she hoped would strengthen her position. Again, the gamble failed. She then compounded this error by rejecting the possibility of the UK remaining in the Single market and/or Customs Union, thereby severely limiting her negotiating position.

 

Johnson managed to make a bad situation worse. Despite warnings from his allies (the DUP) that they would not support the deal he intended to sign, he went ahead and did so. Almost every political commentator warned beforehand that this would result in the NI Assembly collapsing and threaten 25 years of peace on the island of Ireland. Lo and behold, this is what transpired. Johnson then threatened to tear up an international agreement which he had signed only a year before. The only conclusion one can make about Johnson is that he was either (1) incompetent or (2) a liar (as he had no intention of honouring the terms of an agreement which he had freely entered into) ..... Phew ....

 

In summary, Cameron's decision to hold a referendum was the catalyst for this chaos and that is why I blame him.

 

Truss will have to go some to make matters worse but who knows she might succeed.

 

It is becoming clearer by the day that the 52% were sold a pup.

Expand  

Johnson won a landslide victory in an election. You forgot to mention that.

 

Why did he win? Because the opposition parties were faffing about with democracy. Labour wanted to do a deal, then another referendum, then a new deal..........................

 

LibDems  wanted to cancel the whole thing.

 

The electorate decided, overwhelmingly, what they wanted.

[puchooay]

  On 9/21/2022 at 1:43 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Should have thought about that before, now face the consequences

 

Hungary appeals for time, as EU weighs hefty fund freeze

BRUSSELS (AP) — Hungary needs time and is urging its European Union partners to be “tolerant,” the country’s justice minister said Tuesday, after the bloc’s executive branch recommended suspending billions of euros in funding over concerns about democratic backsliding and the possible mismanagement of EU money.

Justice Minister Judit Varga said that Hungary has proposed 17 measures which are “capable of remedying all the concerns” expressed by European Commission. EU Budget Commissioner Johannes Hahn recommended over the weekend that 7.5 billion euros (dollars) from Hungary’s EU funds be frozen.

https://apnews.com/article/hungary-executive-branch-european-union-cce7491b9c1a6f52ec7fc228c309a9e7

 

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This, a perfect example of why unions don't work. 

 

A group of nations telling another nation how to run their business. Politically and economically, by blackmail.

 

This is why the UK voted to leave.

[baboon]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:28 AM, puchooay said:

Johnson won a landslide victory in an election. You forgot to mention that.

 

Why did he win? Because the opposition parties were faffing about with democracy. Labour wanted to do a deal, then another referendum, then a new deal..........................

 

LibDems  wanted to cancel the whole thing.

 

The electorate decided, overwhelmingly, what they wanted.

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Which was to be made poorer and their country turned into a joke worldwide. Yes! Result!

[puchooay]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:40 AM, baboon said:

Which was to be made poorer and their country turned into a joke worldwide. Yes! Result!

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I'd like to see the proof of that, without taking Covid19 and the war in Ukraine into account.

 

That's the thing here. Remainers cannot actually show any true figures because of what else has gone on. 

 

To say the country is poorer and a joke solely because of Brexit is impossible.

 

It will take a few more years to gauge the benefits/downside of leaving the EU.

[Bkk Brian]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:31 AM, puchooay said:

This, a perfect example of why unions don't work. 

 

A group of nations telling another nation how to run their business. Politically and economically, by blackmail.

 

This is why the UK voted to leave.

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Actually this is about Hungary's corruption, breakdown of democracy, rule of law and fundamental rights that are being eroded. The UK is not the subject for me.

[baboon]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:46 AM, puchooay said:

I'd like to see the proof of that, without taking Covid19 and the war in Ukraine into account.

 

That's the thing here. Remainers cannot actually show any true figures because of what else has gone on. 

 

To say the country is poorer and a joke solely because of Brexit is impossible.

 

It will take a few more years to gauge the benefits/downside of leaving the EU.

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We became poorer on the night of the referendum when the pound crashed, years before Covid and Ukraine. Today we are poorer still.

[nauseus]

  On 9/20/2022 at 12:39 PM, RayC said:

Not so according to someone who worked very closely with her

 

https://www.dw.com/en/would-margaret-thatcher-be-in-favor-of-brexit/a-43252699

 

Cameron put his and the Tory party's needs (in that order) before those of the country.

 

The actions of May and Johnson  have made matters worse but imo the main culprit for the mess, that we find ourselves in is 'The Boy David'. 

Expand  

To me he's a hero.

[RayC]

  On 9/20/2022 at 10:11 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Surely that could only be achieved by abolishing individual countries or becoming something like the USA with direct voting for the "federal" politicians, which does not happen in the EU? As much chance of that as me flying to the moon tomorrow, IMO.

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I think that you make a good point.

 

Personally, I hope that a federal Europe is neither absolutely necessary or inevitable although I struggle to see an alternative solution to the problems posed by monetary union. That said, I also struggle to understand the mechanics of the capital markets so, hopefully, there is another solution?????

[RayC]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:28 AM, puchooay said:

Johnson won a landslide victory in an election. You forgot to mention that.

 

Why did he win? Because the opposition parties were faffing about with democracy. Labour wanted to do a deal, then another referendum, then a new deal..........................

 

LibDems  wanted to cancel the whole thing.

 

The electorate decided, overwhelmingly, what they wanted.

Expand  

I didn't mention the size of  Johnson's victory because it didn't seem relevant but, yes I agree it was a landside.

 

I also agree that the Labour party's Brexit response was disjointed and that the Lib Dems call for a so-called 'Peoples Vote' was misguided. (I never supported it).

 

However, is the current state of the country what the electorate wants? 

 

I assume that you are a Brexiter and a Tory supporter (apologies if I am wrong). Is the current situation what you envisaged in 2016 (or even 2019)? Are you happy with the current political state of affairs?

[Phoenix Rising]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:46 AM, puchooay said:

I'd like to see the proof of that, without taking Covid19 and the war in Ukraine into account.

 

That's the thing here. Remainers cannot actually show any true figures because of what else has gone on. 

 

To say the country is poorer and a joke solely because of Brexit is impossible.

 

It will take a few more years to gauge the benefits/downside of leaving the EU.

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And by that time you'll probably have sent your application for a reentry into the EU.

[RayC]

  On 9/21/2022 at 9:00 AM, nauseus said:

To me he's a hero.

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Each to his own. My tuppence worth. To me:

 

Cameron is a privileged, entitled toff who views the country's politics as a toy with which he can amuse himself.

 

May is a decent woman who acts with a sense of duty, and in a manner in which she thinks is in the best interests of the country. Unfortunately, she made strategic mistakes from which she could not recover.

 

Johnson is similar to Cameron with the addition of being an opportunistic chancer, who (apparently) would stop at nothing to further his own personal cause. I have nothing but contempt for the man.

[RayC]

  On 9/21/2022 at 7:46 AM, puchooay said:

 

That's the thing here. Remainers cannot actually show any true figures because of what else has gone on. 

 

To say the country is poorer and a joke solely because of Brexit is impossible.

 

It will take a few more years to gauge the benefits/downside of leaving the EU.

Expand  

I agree that to suggest that the UK is in a  poorer state solely because of Brexit is overstating things. Moreover, showing a casual link - as opposed to simple correlation - between events is extremely difficult. However, most economists agree that Brexit has already had a negative impact on the UK.

 

The time when the perceived benefits of Brexit seems to disappear further into the distance all the time. As Keynes said, "In the long run, we are all dead". Any benefits won't be of much use to us then.

[nauseus]

  On 9/21/2022 at 10:56 AM, RayC said:

Each to his own. My tuppence worth. To me:

 

Cameron is a privileged, entitled toff who views the country's politics as a toy with which he can amuse himself.

 

May is a decent woman who acts with a sense of duty, and in a manner in which she thinks is in the best interests of the country. Unfortunately, she made strategic mistakes from which she could not recover.

 

Johnson is similar to Cameron with the addition of being an opportunistic chancer, who (apparently) would stop at nothing to further his own personal cause. I have nothing but contempt for the man.

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The result of the referendum itself proved that it was something that the majority of Britons wanted - they were far more aware of what the European project was really about than they were in the 1970's. 

[placeholder]

  On 9/21/2022 at 12:31 PM, nauseus said:

The result of the referendum itself proved that it was something that the majority of Britons wanted - they were far more aware of what the European project was really about than they were in the 1970's. 

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Maybe back then. But now?

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/