Increasing Water Pressure - Installing a Pump without a Tank?

[Morakot]

I'm looking into installing a pump to increase the water pressure at the house.

 

The house is in an urban area and connected to a municipal water supply (BMWA).

 

The water pressure often fluctuates so that the pressure is too low to comfortably have a shower upstairs. However there is (almost) always enough water pressure downstairs.

 

My questions:

• Are there pump systems to increase the water pressure that don't require a water tank?
• If so, would this be a recommended setup for my situation?

[Kwasaki]

Yes you can fit a pump but always best to have tank as well in case there is no water from govt coming at any time. 

[KhunBENQ]

21 minutes ago, Morakot said:

The house is in an urban area

I would not go without a tank.

Think how much space you can free up for a tank.

If you want to limit to buffering for pressure there are tanks as small as 100 or 200 liter preferably placed protected from sunlight.

If you want to be able to span a longer water outage like a day you should look for 1000 liter or more.

[KhunBENQ]

If you want to go without a separate tank, at least opt for a pump with a small attached pressure tank.

Like this:

We have this with 255 Watts for a two story house.

(but still a separate tank for the deep well water)

[hansombeast]

The pump simply pressurises the system, to run without a tank is plain silly, as the government may turn the water off for days as most people I think would have experienced here

[Photoguy21]

Make sure the output pressure from the pump can adequately handle the height it has to contend with. Every 10m in height requires 1 Bar to lift the water.

[Kwasaki]

7 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

If you want to go without a separate tank, at least opt for a pump with a small attached pressure tank.

Like this:

We have this with 255 Watts for a two story house.

(but still a separate tank for the deep well water)

Me thinks if the water from govt like he said drops off pressure how will a pump draw enough water from govt supply for the pump to work. 

[Morakot]

23 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

buffering for pressure there are tanks as small as 100 or 200 liter preferably placed protected from sunlight

 

Are there different types of tanks to consider?

Pressure tanks that are fully connected to the system? (Booster pump adding additional pressure)

Or "open" tanks that merely store water and would need a shut off valve to stop overflowing. (Pump repressures entirely)

 

 

[AsianAtHeart]

If the water pressure is adequate at some points of the day, the better solution, in my opinion, is to install a tank without a pump.  Be sure the bottom of the tank is elevated at least 2 meters above the showerhead.  Each ~2.3 ft. of elevation/drop will mean 1 psi of pressure--about 4 psi is the minimum for the average Thai showerhead to get a full, comfortable flow.

 

Then install two one-way valves (check valves): one on the municipal connection, after your water meter, to make sure that you don't backfeed through the meter and lose what you paid for (plus it could be a source of contamination to the city system); and the second check valve on the tank outflow into your home, to prevent the tank from backflow from the city water pressure and allow the tank to fill only at the top of the tank on the inflow, controlled by a float valve that should keep it from overflowing.

 

I have done this with a 1000-liter tank, and it's all working just fine.  I built my own platform to hoist it nearly 3 meters above ground level, resting on the ground beside the house (but yours, for a second-story, would need to be about double that).  However, be aware that a 1000-liter tank, when filled with water, has the weight of nearly half-a-dozen medium-sized pianos--so that tank must be adequately supported.  (1000 liters will be 1000 kgs / 2200 lbs.)  If you're not sure that where you have chosen to place it will be strong enough, do consult an engineer.

 

The advantages with the pumpless system are:

 

1) No electrical consumption or requirement (lower electric bill)

2) No noisy pump (which would run all the time that water is being used if there is no tank)

3) Stored water during an outage

4) Fewer parts to require servicing

 

The disadvantages would be:

 

1) Requires more space

2) More difficult to install

3) Will only fill when the municipal supply has adequate pressure to reach the level of inflow

4) May need a little bleach/chlorine added to the tank on occasion to control growth of algae (if the tank is too dark to permit the entrance of sunlight, this will be less of an issue)

 

FWIW, my connection to the city water is on 1/2" pipe, which increases to 3/4" shortly afterward, all the way to the tank.  It averages about 4 psi to the house (inadequate for a second story--which we don't have).  During the day, pressure regularly drops by half or more, and the tank cannot fill.  At night, the tank fills when few are using water.  It takes about 2.5 hours for the tank to fill completely, and should there be an outage this would last nearly two days on our current average usage.  Given these specifications, our tank is rarely less than half full.

 

NOTE: I have found that Thai-made valves are not reliable.  The cut-off (float) valve in the tank has not been faithful in actually stopping the flow, and the tank has overflowed, causing me to have to shut off the valve on the pipe leading to the tank--after which I later learned that valve is also defective.  You may wish to have a backup valve, and/or be sure to buy a quality valve so as not to make the same mistake.  Wherever you place your tank, be prepared for this contingency.

 

You may find that a smaller size tank is adequate for your needs, in which case it would require less space and support.

 

EDIT: I should add that the total system cost for my system, including the tank (about 3300 baht), the steel, the paint for the steel, welding rods, etc., and the valves came up to about $400-500 USD.  The tank and valves were about a third of that, and the platform construction to support the tank was the larger part.  But the system cured our water outages!

[Morakot]

11 minutes ago, hansombeast said:

The pump simply pressurises the system, to run without a tank is plain silly, as the government may turn the water off for days as most people I think would have experienced here

Would a reasonable pump not have an auto shut off for such a situation?

 

 

 

[Morakot]

12 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

May need a little bleach/chlorine added to the tank on occasion to control growth of algae (if the tank is too dark to permit the entrance of sunlight, this will be less of an issue)

Maintenance for adequate water quality is one of my key concerns.

 

How much work does it take to maintain it. There might be prolonged times when the house is not used.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, Morakot said:

Would a reasonable pump not have an auto shut off for such a situation?

 

You can have on and off switches for the pump like we have.

If we want a power shower on goes the pump. 

If the pressure from govt is not good sometimes, on goes the pump. 

[Kwasaki]

11 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

If the water pressure is adequate at some points of the day, the better solution, in my opinion, is to install a tank without a pump.  Be sure the bottom of the tank is elevated at least 2 meters above the showerhead.  Each ~2.3 ft. of elevation/drop will mean 1 psi of pressure--about 4 psi is the minimum for the average Thai showerhead to get a full, comfortable flow.

 

Then install two one-way valves (check valves): one on the municipal connection, after your water meter, to make sure that you don't backfeed through the meter and lose what you paid for (plus it could be a source of contamination to the city system); and the second check valve on the tank outflow into your home, to prevent the tank from backflow from the city water pressure and allow the tank to fill only at the top of the tank on the inflow, controlled by a float valve that should keep it from overflowing.

 

I have done this with a 1000-liter tank, and it's all working just fine.  I built my own platform to hoist it nearly 3 meters above ground level, resting on the ground beside the house (but yours, for a second-story, would need to be about double that).  However, be aware that a 1000-liter tank, when filled with water, has the weight of nearly half-a-dozen medium-sized pianos--so that tank must be adequately supported.  (1000 liters will be 1000 kgs / 2200 lbs.)  If you're not sure that where you have chosen to place it will be strong enough, do consult an engineer.

 

The advantages with the pumpless system are:

 

1) No electrical consumption or requirement (lower electric bill)

2) No noisy pump (which would run all the time that water is being used if there is no tank)

3) Stored water during an outage

4) Fewer parts to require servicing

 

The disadvantages would be:

 

1) Requires more space

2) More difficult to install

3) Will only fill when the municipal supply has adequate pressure to reach the level of inflow

4) May need a little bleach/chlorine added to the tank on occasion to control growth of algae (if the tank is too dark to permit the entrance of sunlight, this will be less of an issue)

 

FWIW, my connection to the city water is on 1/2" pipe, which increases to 3/4" shortly afterward, all the way to the tank.  It averages about 4 psi to the house (inadequate for a second story--which we don't have).  During the day, pressure regularly drops by half or more, and the tank cannot fill.  At night, the tank fills when few are using water.  It takes about 2.5 hours for the tank to fill completely, and should there be an outage this would last nearly two days on our current average usage.  Given these specifications, our tank is rarely less than half full.

 

NOTE: I have found that Thai-made valves are not reliable.  The cut-off (float) valve in the tank has not been faithful in actually stopping the flow, and the tank has overflowed, causing me to have to shut off the valve on the pipe leading to the tank--after which I later learned that valve is also defective.  You may wish to have a backup valve, and/or be sure to buy a quality valve so as not to make the same mistake.  Wherever you place your tank, be prepared for this contingency.

 

You may find that a smaller size tank is adequate for your needs, in which case it would require less space and support.

 

 

That sounds complicated. ????

[MJCM]

17 minutes ago, Morakot said:

Would a reasonable pump not have an auto shut off for such a situation?

 

 

 

Yes, but if you use a Pump directly connected to the Mains, and mains loses pressure the pump will work but not sucking Water but Air and that would also have your Water Meter Spin, so you are paying for air then.

 

IMHO the best solution should be: Mains - Storage Tank - Pump - House.

 

And ideally if you have low mains pressure, an Underground tank would be the best as even when the mains has very low pressure water will fill the (underground) tank by gravity alone and that is not so easy if your tank is above ground as that would need sufficient pressure from the Mains.

[AsianAtHeart]

4 minutes ago, Morakot said:

Maintenance for adequate water quality is one of my key concerns.

 

How much work does it take to maintain it. There might be prolonged times when the house is not used.

 

 

If you intend to leave the house for several weeks or more, you could always, a day or two ahead of your departure, shut off the tank inlet, shut off the city water until the tank was dry (then turn only the city water back on), and leave the tank empty while you were away.

 

Alternatively, put about 250 mL of plain bleach (not the scented stuff!) into the 1000-liter tank before you go and/or when you return.  It will be a bit stronger than pool water, and you may not wish to shower in it for a couple of days until the chlorine gases off/dissipates, but it would kill bacteria and algae that may have chanced to grow in the tank.  Good tanks will have a cover that should keep out insects and vermin, but they are not airtight.  

[MJCM]

25 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Alternatively, put about 250 mL of plain bleach (not the scented stuff!) into the 1000-liter tank before you go and/or when you return. 

............... h...ll that much! We use approx less then half that for our 2000 liter tank!

 

 

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

52 minutes ago, Morakot said:

Are there pump systems to increase the water pressure that don't require a water tank?

There are many that can theoretically can be used without a tank.

 

That having been said there are practical problems and potential legal ones.

 

Sucking from the mains is likely to bring in pathogens and pollutants, the mains is designed to be a positive pressure system, and as such cracks and small breaks in the pipes are no problem as the positive pressure will force clean water out of the system. 
Sucking from the mains is going to create a negative pressure in the system so all the wonderful fauna (bacteria)  and flora (interesting fungi) not to mention the animal and human waste, is going to be sucked into the system and discharged into your supply.

 

Then there is the legal point that it is virtually certain that is against the law, or at the least against all water companies rules of service to permit Sucking from the mains.

 

So it’s a bad, not to say stupid idea.

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, MJCM said:

............... h...ll that much! We use approx less then half that for our 2000 liter tank!

 

(OP bleach is sold here in Thailand under the name Haiter, and the un-scented stuff comes in a light Blue Bottle like these

 

 

As I said, too strong for showering.  This is not the dosage for normal maintenance, it's for a full cleanout.  You'd have to wait until it dissipated before using the tank again.  You could, of course, just use less, like you are doing now.  But, keep in mind, the 250 mL is a quarter of a liter--not the full liter-size bottle.

[MJCM]

17 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

  But, keep in mind, the 250 mL is a quarter of a liter--not the full liter-size bottle.

250mL is just like that, 1/4 of a liter if it now comes from a 10 Liter bottle or a liter bottle ????

 

[Morakot]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are many that can theoretically can be used without a tank.

 

That having been said there are practical problems and potential legal ones.

 

25 minutes ago, MJCM said:

IMHO the best solution should be: Mains - Storage Tank - Pump - House.

 

Thanks for the useful background info.

 

So it seems a storage tank rather than a pressure tank would be a sensible solution.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

 

Thanks for the useful background info.

 

So it seems a storage tank rather than a pressure tank would be a sensible solution.

 

 

Easy done. ???? pump and tank behind wall in pix. 

 

 

 

[MJCM]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

Easy done. ???? pump and tank behind wall in pix. 

 

 

 

Or...

 

 

????

 

Ps: No Mains Water here

[Kwasaki]

8 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Or...

 

 

????

 

Ps: No Mains Water here

Some on our farmland but only one tank fed by a Well. 

[MJCM]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

Some on our farmland but only one tank fed by a Well. 

We use only Rain Water here, those tanks (if it doesn't rain) last us around 7 months, but the first couple of weeks when the rains come can't use that water (roof and gutters dirty)

[Saanim]

Wondering why this question in the OP?  There are surely few previous threads here where it's explained that to run a pump sucking directly from a municipal water system is not only dangerous (for the owner and for the neighbours as well) but also against the law.

 

 

 

   

[Morakot]

46 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Wondering why this question in the OP?  There are surely few previous threads here where it's explained that to run a pump sucking directly from a municipal water system is not only dangerous (for the owner and for the neighbours as well) but also against the law.

 

I searched the forum, but there seems to be a time limitation on how old the results can be.

 

Care to dig up some of these old threads?

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Morakot said:

I searched the forum, but there seems to be a time limitation on how old the results can be.

You need to use your Google <deleted>,  the syntax when on a Google search window is

 

site:aseannow.com (your search terms go here)

that will allow you to do your own digging 

the dedicated search in aseannow.com  is well known to be cr*p

[Saanim]

17 hours ago, Morakot said:

I searched the forum, but there seems to be a time limitation on how old the results can be.

 

Care to dig up some of these old threads?

Anyway, many esteemed members surely know about this topic coming up quite often. So, instead of browsing through the valuable comments, somebody (or the MOD - they know the best what's good and what's wrong) should clearly say at the beginning:

"You cannot connect a pump directly to the municipality system". Period...

 

[Kwasaki]

18 hours ago, Saanim said:

Wondering why this question in the OP?  There are surely few previous threads here where it's explained that to run a pump sucking directly from a municipal water system is not only dangerous (for the owner and for the neighbours as well) but also against the law.

 

The best advice has been given already what to do. 

 

The worse that could happen is if the waterboard guy came to read the meter I guess he would of said you can't do that. ????

[unheard]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

The worse that could happen is if the waterboard guy came to read the meter I guess he would of said you can't do that. ????

Is that so?

I'd suspect the law is being enforced with some appropriate punishment measures.

Endangering everyone's water supplies is criminal.