Popular Post Chomper Higgot Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: Not to mention the trade union bosses. I still remember the images of Arthur Scargill at the miners' strikes. "Come on lads. That's it. Get that picket line going. Don't worry about your bills. Don't worry about feeding your families. Don't worry about the violence. It's all for a cause". How did he travel to the picket line??? In a chauffeur driven Jag. Hogwash. Arthur Scargill was very clear in his arguments, that the then Tory Government wanted to close the UK mines, throw UK miners out of work an import cheap coal from Poland. He was right, that is exactly what the Thatcher Government did. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Hogwash. Arthur Scargill was very clear in his arguments, that the then Tory Government wanted to close the UK mines, throw UK miners out of work an import cheap coal from Poland. He was right, that is exactly what the Thatcher Government did. Was it anything to do with the mines not paying for itself...? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chomper Higgot Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, transam said: Was it anything to do with the mines not paying for itself...? No, it was to do with breaking the unions. Working people in the UK have paid the price ever since. Wages lagging the cost of living, final salary pensions stripped away, workers rights decimated and the birth of the gig economy. The inflection point was 1979. Edited October 7, 2022 by Chomper Higgot 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Mickmanus Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 1 hour ago, transam said: Was it anything to do with the mines not paying for itself...? It was costing more to get the coal out the ground than what it was worth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said: Hogwash. Arthur Scargill was very clear in his arguments, that the then Tory Government wanted to close the UK mines, throw UK miners out of work an import cheap coal from Poland. He was right, that is exactly what the Thatcher Government did. But he was driving round in a Jag, with a big salary while the miners struggled. So, my comment was not hogwash. You went off topic to try to make it look that way. Funny really. 55555. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said: Hogwash. Arthur Scargill was very clear in his arguments, that the then Tory Government wanted to close the UK mines, throw UK miners out of work an import cheap coal from Poland. He was right, that is exactly what the Thatcher Government did. I know a few ex miners. They were quite happy with the turn out. Some were offered the chance to buy the mines. Of course they declined as it was money down the drain. Some got jobs with private firms who did buy some of the mines. They got very well paid for the 6 months they worked, until the firms realised they were losing money as the mines were not cost effective. Others took advantage of the free offer of retraining in other jobs. Got good new jobs and never looked back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post placeholder Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 18 minutes ago, puchooay said: I know a few ex miners. They were quite happy with the turn out. Some were offered the chance to buy the mines. Of course they declined as it was money down the drain. Some got jobs with private firms who did buy some of the mines. They got very well paid for the 6 months they worked, until the firms realised they were losing money as the mines were not cost effective. Others took advantage of the free offer of retraining in other jobs. Got good new jobs and never looked back. 'The salient thing about comments like yours is that they unsupported by any confirmable evidence. On the other hand, there's this: Former mining communities 'still scarred by past' https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-50069336 An English village, 30 years after its mine closed https://www.marketplace.org/2014/04/08/english-village-30-years-after-its-mine-closed/ Former coal mining communities have less faith in politics than other 'left behind' areas https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/former-coal-mining-communities-have-less-faith-in-politics-than-other-left-behind-areas Yorkshire’s mining towns have been forgotten for too long - Peter McNestry https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/yorkshires-mining-towns-have-been-forgotten-too-long-peter-mcnestry-2451193 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, placeholder said: 'The salient thing about comments like yours is that they unsupported by any confirmable evidence. On the other hand, there's this: Former mining communities 'still scarred by past' https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-50069336 An English village, 30 years after its mine closed https://www.marketplace.org/2014/04/08/english-village-30-years-after-its-mine-closed/ Former coal mining communities have less faith in politics than other 'left behind' areas https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/former-coal-mining-communities-have-less-faith-in-politics-than-other-left-behind-areas Yorkshire’s mining towns have been forgotten for too long - Peter McNestry https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/yorkshires-mining-towns-have-been-forgotten-too-long-peter-mcnestry-2451193 When I was told by my miners friends there were no such thins as internet or links. What we did have were facts by observation and living in communities affected by changes in circumstance. What we didn't have were keyboard warriors with veiled accusations calling us liars just because they'd spent hours trawling the internet to find media posts that may or may not be impartial. Sad state of affairs right now that so many people have to rely on what they read rather than what they have experienced first hand. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Mickmanus Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, puchooay said: When I was told by my miners friends there were no such thins as internet or links. What we did have were facts by observation and living in communities affected by changes in circumstance. What we didn't have were keyboard warriors with veiled accusations calling us liars just because they'd spent hours trawling the internet to find media posts that may or may not be impartial. Sad state of affairs right now that so many people have to rely on what they read rather than what they have experienced first hand. You can find any info you want when doing websearchs . Search "Coal mine closure success" *Coal mine closure failures* And you will get two different sets of results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said: You can find any info you want when doing websearchs . Search "Coal mine closure success" *Coal mine closure failures* And you will get two different sets of results My point is. I had some perfectly good conversations with people who had true life experiences. Some people seem to think I need to provide a link to conversations I had 30 years ago. Pathetic. Edited October 7, 2022 by puchooay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Slip Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, puchooay said: When I was told by my miners friends there were no such thins as internet or links. What we did have were facts by observation and living in communities affected by changes in circumstance. What we didn't have were keyboard warriors with veiled accusations calling us liars just because they'd spent hours trawling the internet to find media posts that may or may not be impartial. Sad state of affairs right now that so many people have to rely on what they read rather than what they have experienced first hand. No, what we had was closed mines, unemployment and the tories attacking the working class. They're at it now too, but have extended their net. One of my best mates was from Donny- his pop was a coal miner. No keyboard warriors there. Your miner friends? Must have been west coast. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placeholder Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 19 minutes ago, puchooay said: When I was told by my miners friends there were no such thins as internet or links. What we did have were facts by observation and living in communities affected by changes in circumstance. What we didn't have were keyboard warriors with veiled accusations calling us liars just because they'd spent hours trawling the internet to find media posts that may or may not be impartial. Sad state of affairs right now that so many people have to rely on what they read rather than what they have experienced first hand. Sure.Just more of the same from you. Emotional claims of first hand experiene with name-calling to back it up. Ex mining communities are mostly thriving? You really want to go with that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 25 minutes ago, Slip said: No, what we had was closed mines, unemployment and the tories attacking the working class. They're at it now too, but have extended their net. One of my best mates was from Donny- his pop was a coal miner. No keyboard warriors there. Your miner friends? Must have been west coast. Wakefield, Barnsley and Wales With regards to "no keyboard warriors there", could you provide can link, please? 55555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Mickmanus Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 22 minutes ago, puchooay said: My point is. I had some perfectly good conversations with people who had true life experiences. Some people seem to think I need to provide a link to conversations I had 30 years ago. Pathetic. I think that you misunderstood . I wasn't suggesting that you need to post a link , I was making the point that others can post links which show something different to what you said, jut by typing in certain words in a websearch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 21 minutes ago, placeholder said: Sure.Just more of the same from you. Emotional claims of first hand experiene with name-calling to back it up. Ex mining communities are mostly thriving? You really want to go with that? No. I've never said that. Once again you are mis quoting. However, had a greater majority embraced the opportunities as the guys I know did, things would have been a lot more prosperous for all. The mines would have closed sooner or later. Maybe a Labour government would gave pumped millions in to keep them open. That would, as we now know, have been futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Mickmanus Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 28 minutes ago, placeholder said: Ex mining communities are mostly thriving? You really want to go with that? Is that a strawman argument ? Making up quotes and then falsely attributing that quote to another person and then calling them liars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said: I think that you misunderstood . I wasn't suggesting that you need to post a link , I was making the point that others can post links which show something different to what you said, jut by typing in certain words in a websearch Indeed. But, at the same time some posters are suggesting my experiences are " Salient and unsupported by confirmable evidence" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placeholder Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said: Is that a strawman argument ? Making up quotes and then falsely attributing that quote to another person and then calling them liars Wasn't aware that I used quotation marks or that I called anyone a liar. And as for a straw man, I pointed out that there is plenty of evidence that the closing of the mines was a brutal blow for the miners and I couldn't find any that said otherwise. Doubtless there are a few cases of miners who thrived afterwards, but a significant number? And this is a general discussion about the effects of public policy. Representing what may be a few cases of success as significant is, to say the least, misleading. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Mickmanus Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, placeholder said: Wasn't aware that I used quotation marks or that I called anyone a liar. And as for a straw man, I pointed out that there is plenty of evidence that the closing of the mines was a brutal blow for the miners and I couldn't find any that said otherwise. Doubtless there are a few cases of miners who thrived afterwards, but a significant number? And this is a general discussion about the effects of public policy. Representing what may be a few cases of success as significant is, to say the least, misleading. No one suggested that" Ex mining communities are mostly thriving" , you are the only one to say that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post baboon Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 38 minutes ago, puchooay said: No. I've never said that. Once again you are mis quoting. However, had a greater majority embraced the opportunities as the guys I know did, things would have been a lot more prosperous for all. The mines would have closed sooner or later. Maybe a Labour government would gave pumped millions in to keep them open. That would, as we now know, have been futile. Maybe they would. But better that than borrowing billions to give tax cuts for the already wealthy. At least miners' wages would not be stuck in some offshore account in the Caymans or wherever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thaibeachlovers Posted October 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, puchooay said: And the bosses, top engineers, consultants, IT guys, finance guys, etc were all earning a salary that, in modern times, would be well over 100k a year. What is it about this misconception that nationalisation means there are no high earners? There are. The only difference is the tax payer has to pay for their salaries as the nationalized companies are making losses. It was different world back then. People actually worked to benefit society, not to get rich off it. Also back then, no IT guys ( no computers like now ) finance was a dirty word, and "consultants" was not a word in common use. My father was a top accountant and was a big wheel in government accounting departments in a few different countries, but we were middle class income family, and definitely not rich. Edited October 7, 2022 by thaibeachlovers 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 10 hours ago, puchooay said: When I was told by my miners friends there were no such thins as internet or links. What we did have were facts by observation and living in communities affected by changes in circumstance. What we didn't have were keyboard warriors with veiled accusations calling us liars just because they'd spent hours trawling the internet to find media posts that may or may not be impartial. Sad state of affairs right now that so many people have to rely on what they read rather than what they have experienced first hand. And yet you never offered any verifiable evidence, just the ‘testimony’ of ‘former miner friends’ that supports your views. We should perhaps put this down to serendipity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said: It was different world back then. People actually worked to benefit society, not to get rich off it. Also back then, no IT guys ( no computers like now ) finance was a dirty word, and "consultants" was not a word in common use. My father was a top accountant and was a big wheel in government accounting departments in a few different countries, but we were middle class income family, and definitely not rich. Agreed. https://equalitytrust.org.uk/how-has-inequality-changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said: Also back then, no IT guys That's funny. Now I know you don't know what you are talking about. 555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 1 minute ago, puchooay said: That's funny. Now I know you don't know what you are talking about. 555 At the time I'm talking about, the only computers would have been those big room sized things that used tape. So OK, there would have been guys that operated/ fixed them, but not as we know them today. If you know different, tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 14 hours ago, puchooay said: Wakefield, Barnsley and Wales With regards to "no keyboard warriors there", could you provide can link, please? 55555 I've been to Barnsley. Didn't seem any worse off than anywhere else I went in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 13 hours ago, baboon said: Maybe they would. But better that than borrowing billions to give tax cuts for the already wealthy. At least miners' wages would not be stuck in some offshore account in the Caymans or wherever. Really? The tax cust from20 to 19% benefits all tax payers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: At the time I'm talking about, the only computers would have been those big room sized things that used tape. So OK, there would have been guys that operated/ fixed them, but not as we know them today. If you know different, tell us. I don't have to. You have already contradicted yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puchooay Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 15 hours ago, placeholder said: 'The salient thing about comments like yours is that they unsupported by any confirmable evidence. On the other hand, there's this: Former mining communities 'still scarred by past' https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-50069336 An English village, 30 years after its mine closed https://www.marketplace.org/2014/04/08/english-village-30-years-after-its-mine-closed/ Former coal mining communities have less faith in politics than other 'left behind' areas https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/former-coal-mining-communities-have-less-faith-in-politics-than-other-left-behind-areas Yorkshire’s mining towns have been forgotten for too long - Peter McNestry https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/yorkshires-mining-towns-have-been-forgotten-too-long-peter-mcnestry-2451193 Why not level it up? Post some links about how the NUM paid the rent for Scargill's luxury flat. How about the Court case in 2012 where he lost his battle with the NUM to live there for life, £34000 a month paid by NUM at £20 per member. Even better, the story about him trying to but the flat for £1m, half price, under Thatcher's right to buy scheme. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, puchooay said: I don't have to. You have already contradicted yourself. Go bait someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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