Thainess - a true definition?

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, peterrabbit said:

If you ever bothered to read the original post you will see I never screamed at anyone because I was too sick to argue with anyone. I was too sick to even argue over the 600b they charged me for the paracetamol and cough medicine. If I had not been so sick I would have demanded an explanation from Her boss at the very least. If I had not been so sick and not thinking straight then maybe I would have chosen to go straight to a private hospital instead but having taken my family to the Government hospital for their medication two days before I thought this was the place to go. How wrong a decision that turned out to be.

It was a doctor NOT a nurse and She was being forced by her superiors to deny me, against her clinical judgement, necessary medication because of a policy decision by senior management to not prescribe antiviral Covid medicines to Falangs.

 

Why don't just stop distorting the facts.

 

 

 

Something doesn't ad up here. Maybe it is the current rate of the GBP, but if you were that sick, it makes no sense to go to a hospital you have to wait for hours. 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

So, I was right the first time, a nice guy - Fluffy didn't say she raised her voice, he just didn't like the results which were not up to her... 

And he (the Op) didn’t say he raised his voice... but he most certainly ‘should’ have raised his disappointment and ask her to pass that along to those making the decisions. 

 

Whether she [the Dr.] would do so is a different matter, either way, its discriminatory treatment and must be highlighted in a manner which stressed the disappointment rather than simply walking away disappointed. 

 

---------

 

I have had situations in a hospital where I have disagreed with the Dr who was a junior paediatrician, I asked her to bring Supervising Doctor on Duty, I spoke with them both of my disagreement with the suggestion of the junior Doctor - The senior agreed. I said I wanted no further interaction with the Junior Doctor. The Senior was excellent and discussed all decisions with me in detail. 

 

A different situation (damaged back) Dr. Said just a pulled muscle... I disagreed, Doctor insisted he was correct, meanwhile couldn’t stand and had shooting pains down my legs.

I was really annoyed that the doctor wouldn’t investigate any further (private hospice), I was in a lot of pain, I asked my Wife to ‘please take me out of here, this guy is an lazy idiot’ (yes, I wanted to be rude, I was quite angry)... I we went to another private hospital, I was x-rayed... 1 damaged disk found on x-ray, given an MRI, 3 damaged disks in total...   The Doctor at the first hospital was lazy and the Doctor at the second hospital agreed !!!... 

 

Sometimes, we just have to speak up (that doesn’t mean shouting as some people seem to think speaking up means). 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Something doesn't ad up here. Maybe it is the current rate of the GBP, but if you were that sick, it makes no sense to go to a hospital you have to wait for hours. 

Why are you arguing with the obvious and defending the poor treatment. 

 

The Op clearly states he went to the very same hospital he took his relatives to because this is where they were treated well. His experience was different and based on his nationality. 

[Neeranam]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Why are you arguing with the obvious and defending the poor treatment. 

 

The Op clearly states he went to the very same hospital he took his relatives to because this is where they were treated well. His experience was different and based on his nationality. 

We don't know the full story 

Maybe he went with a woman with tattoos, or other such thing that Thai people don't like, Chang vests, etc, raised voice, Colonial superior attitude. 

[2baht]

58 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

You seem to have an issue with me being a naturalized Thai.

Not at all, you'll be Prime Minister of Thailand soon! ????????

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, 1FinickyOne said:

So, I was right the first time, a nice guy - Fluffy didn't say she raised her voice, he just didn't like the results which were not up to her... 

I did not say she raised her voice either, I said if and I stand by what I said. Now this debate is over, it is going nowhere.

[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

You seem to have an issue with me being a naturalized Thai.

I have no issue with it at all.  However, I simply do not believe that you will ever be considered "Thai".  Perhaps it is you who has the issue with this?

 

If people with one Thai parent, born and raised in Thailand, with "Thai" genes and Thai ancestry, but with one non-Thai parent, are considered to only be "half Thai", what hope does a British White man with no Thai ancestry, not born or raised in Thailand, who simply gained Thai citizenship later in life?

 

You seem to like bringing up examples and trying to create analogies using other countries, but as they are very different places to Thailand, they don't work.

[peterrabbit]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

We don't know the full story 

Maybe he went with a woman with tattoos, or other such thing that Thai people don't like, Chang vests, etc, raised voice, Colonial superior attitude. 

Why are you constantly trying to introduce falsehoods into the story?

 

I went with my wife and no She does not have any tattoos and speaks very polite Thai to officials. 

I have never had a colonial superior attitude in my life and never have or would I wear a "Chang" or other such T shirt or advertising billboard type clothes. I always dress respectfully when visiting Thai Government organisations.

I know that shouting at Thais gets you nowhere, as it's considered a huge loss of face if you do, not just on them but yourself,  so I never scream at Thais, but at times I may feel like it which I'm sure many expats must share.

There were only a few people there at that time in the morning but the staff were slow in processing people. 

It took approx 30 minutes before I saw the Doctor. She was very polite but her English was not good so it was difficult for her to fully explain the situation. At first she told me I was a high risk case and that I needed the antivirals and she was going to prescribe them for me. However when it came time for the hospital pharmacy to dispense the drugs it was clear she had been overruled by someone in authority. It appeared to me that she was trying to communicate her frustration/displeasure/dissatisfaction of being deliberately prevented from dispensing drugs which from her own clinical expertise she knew I must have as a matter of urgency purely on the grounds that I was a falang and the policy put in place was to prevented me from receiving them. Yes She used the word Falang whether she meant that or non Thais I have no idea. She wanted to give me the drugs but Her superiors had stopped her from doing so. She impressed upon me how important it was that I get these drugs ASAP so she wrote down what I needed with the dose and told me to get them but could not tell me exactly where.

I was too sick to argue or think of anything other than getting the medicine I required and back into my sick bed I was in absolutely no condition to complain/argue/shout or do anything about what had happened.

My post is about a policy being implemented by Thai government health authorities of denial of Covid antiviral medicines to falangs. It is a disgusting policy, the refusal of medical treatment to patients based on their nationality. It contravenes every accepted medical ethic and should not be tolerated by anyone.  It has nothing to do with financial reasons as I have already stated I was fully prepared to pay for it from which the 

health authorities would have made a profit. There can be NO excuse for the implementation of such a policy by the health authorities least of all "National" interests. Whether this is an isolated example only occurring in Pattaya or is more widespread I have no idea but it needs to STOP.

[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Why are you arguing with the obvious and defending the poor treatment.

Cognitive dissonance.  It is essential to his psychology that Thais are the good guys and foreigners are the bad guys.  Therefore, his subconscious mind bends the truth and distorts the facts to prevent a Thai from ever being in the wrong, even if it means the most illogical and trivial are dreamt up or blown out of proportion.

 

It simply has to be that the foreigner did something wrong and all Thais involved are completely innocent.  His mind will not allow any other outcome to present itself.

 

It's sadly a very common occurrence amongst the Thai apologists here.

 

Edit:  This also answers the question @peterrabbit just asked.

 

Quote

Why are you constantly trying to introduce falsehoods into the story?

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by BangkokReady

[kinyara]

20 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

Why are you constantly trying to introduce falsehoods into the story?

 

I went with my wife and no She does not have any tattoos and speaks very polite Thai to officials. 

I have never had a colonial superior attitude in my life and never have or would I wear a "Chang" or other such T shirt or advertising billboard type clothes. I always dress respectfully when visiting Thai Government organisations.

I know that shouting at Thais gets you nowhere, as it's considered a huge loss of face if you do, not just on them but yourself,  so I never scream at Thais, but at times I may feel like it which I'm sure many expats must share.

There were only a few people there at that time in the morning but the staff were slow in processing people. 

It took approx 30 minutes before I saw the Doctor. She was very polite but her English was not good so it was difficult for her to fully explain the situation. At first she told me I was a high risk case and that I needed the antivirals and she was going to prescribe them for me. However when it came time for the hospital pharmacy to dispense the drugs it was clear she had been overruled by someone in authority. It appeared to me that she was trying to communicate her frustration/displeasure/dissatisfaction of being deliberately prevented from dispensing drugs which from her own clinical expertise she knew I must have as a matter of urgency purely on the grounds that I was a falang and the policy put in place was to prevented me from receiving them. Yes She used the word Falang whether she meant that or non Thais I have no idea. She wanted to give me the drugs but Her superiors had stopped her from doing so. She impressed upon me how important it was that I get these drugs ASAP so she wrote down what I needed with the dose and told me to get them but could not tell me exactly where.

I was too sick to argue or think of anything other than getting the medicine I required and back into my sick bed I was in absolutely no condition to complain/argue/shout or do anything about what had happened.

My post is about a policy being implemented by Thai government health authorities of denial of Covid antiviral medicines to falangs. It is a disgusting policy, the refusal of medical treatment to patients based on their nationality. It contravenes every accepted medical ethic and should not be tolerated by anyone.  It has nothing to do with financial reasons as I have already stated I was fully prepared to pay for it from which the 

health authorities would have made a profit. There can be NO excuse for the implementation of such a policy by the health authorities least of all "National" interests. Whether this is an isolated example only occurring in Pattaya or is more widespread I have no idea but it needs to STOP.

How are you going to learn from this experience, what are you going to do differently in future to ensure you receive urgent healthcare when you require it ?  

[473geo]

I think the moral of this 'report' is find a doctor close to you who runs surgery

For one thing they may stock the drugs you require, secondly they are not 'overseen' to the extent they would refuse to assist, if the doctor could not treat you they are your link via referral to a place that can 

One of the more common complaints in the UK was people going to A&E for minor issues, while I understand doctors run surgeries at Thai government hospitals, the possibility of long a wait is high, 30 minutes is not too bad for either of the choices ????

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

We don't know the full story 

Maybe he went with a woman with tattoos, or other such thing that Thai people don't like, Chang vests, etc, raised voice, Colonial superior attitude. 

You do know the full story - the Op provided a great deal of detail. 

 

You are now attempting to blame the discrimination directed towards the Op on something you imagine....   you are getting desperate to excuse the inexcusable almost as if you wish to level the same level of discrimination at the Op yourself. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, kinyara said:

How are you going to learn from this experience, what are you going to do differently in future to ensure you receive urgent healthcare when you require it ?  

It's a good question - but how are we to know what discriminatory practices are in place an an establishment until we encounter them?

 

We know national parks operated discriminatory dual pricing against non-Thai’s.

We know hospitals can practice discriminatory dual pricing against non-Thai’s.

We have now learned that some ‘hospitals’ can refuse needed medication to non-Thai’s during and after being treated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

31 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Why are you arguing with the obvious and defending the poor treatment.

Cognitive dissonance.  It is essential to his psychology that Thais are the good guys and foreigners are the bad guys.  Therefore, his subconscious mind bends the truth and distorts the facts to prevent a Thai from ever being in the wrong, even if it means the most illogical and trivial are dreamt up or blown out of proportion.

 

It simply has to be that the foreigner did something wrong and all Thais involved are completely innocent.  His mind will not allow any other outcome to present itself.

 

It's sadly a very common occurrence amongst the Thai apologists here.

 

Edit:  This also answers the question @peterrabbit just asked.

 

Quote

Why are you constantly trying to introduce falsehoods into the story?

 

 

I wonder IF instead of discussing ’Thainess’ Neeranam has instead chosen to give us his examples of 'Thainess’ by presenting excuses for and attempting to defend this type of discrimination by a Thai against a non-Thai...... 

 

 

[473geo]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It's a good question - but how are we to know what discriminatory practices are in place an an establishment until we encounter them?

 

We know national parks operated discriminatory dual pricing against non-Thai’s.

We know hospitals can practice discriminatory dual pricing against non-Thai’s.

We have now learned that some ‘hospitals’ can refuse needed medication to non-Thai’s during and after being treated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good grief Thailand is one big 'national park' and if you still need to visit waterfalls and lakes late in life what have you been doing! You deserve to pay!!

 

Only hospital treatment I experienced in Thailand 36 stitches 1000 baht exceptional on the spot treatment

 

For the last part of your comments see my recent post above 

 

So let us not take the OPs post as anything more than a heads up for what many of us already cater for, the unexpected can occasionally become the expected in Thailand

[OneMoreFarang]

50 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

She impressed upon me how important it was that I get these drugs ASAP so she wrote down what I needed with the dose and told me to get them but could not tell me exactly where.

Maybe you wrote this already earlier.

Couldn't she write you a prescription and with that you should be able to get it in a pharmacy? 

[ed strong]

Question i have is...........Why is the op prescribing his own treatment?

 

Perhaps the doctor only prescribes or gives out medicine to those that need it and perhaps you did not fall into that category?

 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

58 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

She impressed upon me how important it was that I get these drugs ASAP so she wrote down what I needed with the dose and told me to get them but could not tell me exactly where.

Maybe you wrote this already earlier.

Couldn't she write you a prescription and with that you should be able to get it in a pharmacy? 

He did write it earlier....  (one of the earlier pages). 

 

She was unable to write the prescription as that would be for the Hospital Pharmacy, or enable him to get the required molnupiravir from the hospital pharmacy - so it was the prescription itself which was blocked - The Doctor would (could) only write a prescription for the Cough Mixture and Paracetamol which the Op purchased from the hospital Pharmacy for 620 Baht. 

 

The Doctor told the Op that he needed the molnupiravir and wrote it down on a piece of paper. 

 

The Op explained that he’d called Fascino (Pharmacy), they didn’t have it in stock, so it was unlikely any other Pharmacy would have it in stock seeing that Fascino is the ‘go to Pharmacy to get anything’. 

 

The Ops only solution was to go through the ‘whole process again’ see another Doctor at a different hospital (Memorial) who would prescribe the recommended molnupiravir.

Edited October 25, 2022 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Question i have is...........Why is the op prescribing his own treatment?

No... The question you should really be asking is Why didn’t you comprehend what the Op has posted. 

The Op has clearly stated the Doctor wanted to prescribe molnupiravir but couldn’t because she had been told she was not allowed to prescribe that antiviral medication to a ‘farang’. 

 

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Perhaps the doctor only prescribes or gives out medicine to those that need it and perhaps you did not fall into that category?

Again.... You are commenting without having read / understood the Ops post - the Doctor told the Op that this was the medication (molnupiravir) that he needed. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

23 minutes ago, 473geo said:

So let us not take the OPs post as anything more than a heads up for what many of us already cater for, the unexpected can occasionally become the expected in Thailand

Yep... completely agree.....   and its extremely sad to ‘expect’ that we could receive discriminatory treatment at a hospital of all things... 

 

----------

 

I recall the outrage, defence and deep and heated discussion on this forum and others when at the height of the Pandemic a Thai lady in the UK had covid symptoms which were at the time mild, she went to hospital and was given paracetamol and sent home.

 

I think she died a few days later, she’d video-logged her own decline....   terrible treatment by the NHS in the UK, but they were also treating British with the same degree of symptoms in exactly the same manner, so little was known about Covid at the time, they could only treat ’very severe symptoms’ in hospital, for anyone else it was simply ‘go home and take paracetamol - hospitals are full’.... 

 

At the time, there were accusations by Thai’s (on Thai forums) that this lady had been treated unequally, however, its obvious that while the treatment this lady received was extremely poor, primarily due to her ’non severe symptoms and her younger age' she was treated the same as anyone else.... Sadly, she did not go back to hospital when her symptoms worsened.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by richard_smith237

[ed strong]

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

No... The question you should really be asking is Why didn’t you comprehend what the Op has posted. 

The Op has clearly stated the Doctor wanted to prescribe molnupiravir but couldn’t because she had been told she was not allowed to prescribe that antiviral medication to a ‘farang’. 

 

Again.... You are commenting without having read / understood the Ops post - the Doctor told the Op that this was the medication (molnupiravir) that he needed. 

 

 

Ok no need to get ratty.....Its very confusing, one minute he had the prescription then the big boss wouldnt let him have it, then he left with the prescription and was given paracatemol and cough mixture.

 

Sounds like the op got confused and as it apparently turns out that he didnt need the life changing medicine after all.

 

Now looking at the whole situation from afar it turns out that everything happened as it was needed to.

 

Posting on this thread will do more harm for your health than any confusion at the hospital lol

 

 

[peterrabbit]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Maybe you wrote this already earlier.

Couldn't she write you a prescription and with that you should be able to get it in a pharmacy? 

From what I could deduce the prescriptions are produced on a computer which is directly linked to the Pharmacy for disbursement. I think she created a such a prescription but it was rejected/amended by someone possibly in the pharmacy or a supervisor of some sort. So she could not produce a proper computerised prescription for me as the system is interlinked and whoever changed Her prescription did NOT want this being recorded in the hospital system. She was deliberately prevented from producing a computerised prescription by her superiors so to all intent according to the system, it never happened. According to the computer She never prescribed me antivirals as there would be NO record of it.

 

So she wrote me a hand written note of what I needed to take.

 

IMO I think this policy has NOT been officially sanctioned or authorised and is being implemented "under the table", so the people who are running it are trying to cover their actions. If there is no evidence in the computer system that antiviral prescriptions are deliberately not being prescribed to falangs then its deniable that this is taking place.

[spidermike007]

As stated previously, a private hospital would have been a better choice. I avoid public hospitals most of the time, as they tend to devour many hours of my day. Not worth it. 

 

Also, you always have the option of turning down any prescription drug. Especially useless and over priced ones. 

 

I do not see this as racism, as much as ignorance, and very dumb policy. Covid is not a huge problem anymore, and unless the medicine is in short supply, why inconvenience a foreigner, who shows up for treatment, and is willing to pay? 

Edited October 25, 2022 by spidermike007

[richard_smith237]

35 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Question i have is...........Why is the op prescribing his own treatment?

 

Perhaps the doctor only prescribes or gives out medicine to those that need it and perhaps you did not fall into that category?

 

There is also another response to this question: 

 

The knowledge and medication surrounding the treatment of Covid-19 has evolved rapidly over the past 12 months - for someone of knowledge it would be perfectly reasonable to discuss any medication with a doctor, particularly someone who’s family member has received exactly the same treatment and medication a few days previously. 

 

 

Certainly, when I need treatment, here or in the UK, I discuss in depth any treatment I may need because I and others like me are capable of reading published information and assimilating the data to a sufficient base to engage with the doctor on that intellectual level. 

 

IF you are incapable of doing this I can understand why you may not be able to discuss such things with a Doctor and simply take their word for it on blind faith. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Ok no need to get ratty.....Its very confusing, one minute he had the prescription then the big boss wouldnt let him have it, then he left with the prescription and was given paracatemol and cough mixture.

No.. the Op was not given a Prescription for molnupiravir.

That was written on a piece of paper for him - the Op called a Fascino pharmacy which did not have the medication he was told he needed. 

 

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Sounds like the op got confused and as it apparently turns out that he didnt need the life changing medicine after all.

No.. the Op wasn’t confused, you are (sorry for ‘getting ratty’ again).... The Op went to Memorial Hospital (a private / non-government hospital), saw another Doctor who prescribed molnupiravir (which cost approx 4000 baht). 

 

 

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Now looking at the whole situation from afar it turns out that everything happened as it was needed to.

Not really, the Op needed medical advice and treatment and was refused medication at one hospital and forced to go to another.....  Thats not as it ’needs to be’ at all.

 

6 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Posting on this thread will do more harm for your health than any confusion at the hospital lol

Indeed... particularly when people seem to have gone native and respond with a cognitive bias and attempt to defend the indefensible. 

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

If people with one Thai parent, born and raised in Thailand, with "Thai" genes and Thai ancestry, but with one non-Thai parent, are considered to only be "half Thai", what hope does a British White man with no Thai ancestry, not born or raised in Thailand, who simply gained Thai citizenship later in life?

 

You seem to like bringing up examples and trying to create analogies using other countries, but as they are very different places to Thailand, they don't work.

Now you are racial talking nonsense.

My kids were born to a foreign and a Thai parent, and I assure you they are not Half Thai, they are 100% Thai and 100% British. 

 

I bet you consider Chinese Thais to be real Thais?

 

It was a simple question which you conveniently didn't answer. 

Do you think Arnie is an American, or was Bob Hope an American?

If you are a Brit, was Freddie Mercury British, David Milliband, or Mo Farah?

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Now you are racial talking nonsense.

My kids were born to a foreign and a Thai parent, and I assure you they are not Half Thai, they are 100% Thai and 100% British. 

 

I bet you consider Chinese Thais to be real Thais?

 

It was a simple question which you conveniently didn't answer. 

Do you think Arnie is an American, or was Bob Hope an American?

If you are a Brit, was Freddie Mercury British, David Milliband, or Mo Farah?

If you lived your life in both countries with legal papers I would agree. What the genetics says, is different. I'm 63% Scandinavian. 20% north European, 14% Finnish, 1% eastern European basically Rus Ukraina.

 

Meaning even I'm 100% Norwegian I'm not!

 

[1FinickyOne]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Perhaps, 1FinickyOne, you are unable to give negative feedback without screaming at anyone... 

 

But, for many of us, we can object and give negative feedback (also known as ‘not taking any cr@p’) without screaming and behaving like a juvenile child. 

 

In this case the Op may well have voiced his understandable annoyance. It's ok to show people that we are not happy with something when facing poor or discriminatory treatment. 

 

 

Sorry, I never scream and I do act rationally and accept the culture that I am living in... in the case of the OP, he also did not scream but was angry at someone who was just doing their job and who sounded sympathetic... he was just in the wrong place.

[1FinickyOne]

3 hours ago, peterrabbit said:

If you ever bothered to read the original post you will see I never screamed at anyone because I was too sick to argue with anyone. I was too sick to even argue over the 600b they charged me for the paracetamol and cough medicine. If I had not been so sick I would have demanded an explanation from Her boss at the very least. If I had not been so sick and not thinking straight then maybe I would have chosen to go straight to a private hospital instead but having taken my family to the Government hospital for their medication two days before I thought this was the place to go. How wrong a decision that turned out to be.

It was a doctor NOT a nurse and She was being forced by her superiors to deny me, against her clinical judgement, necessary medication because of a policy decision by senior management to not prescribe antiviral Covid medicines to Falangs.

 

Why don't just stop distorting the facts.

 

 

 

Yo Fluffy - lots of pent up anger there... your posting this as "Thainess" was rather leading... you make a mistake, an understandable one, and you are a great guy for not screaming at her, though you wanted to... and you should know that meds are much more expensive in a hospital than a pharmacy, yet you chose to make the purchase... sounds to me as you blaming Thais for your lack of knowledge is more arrogant farang-ness than Thainess... 

 

The only thing they did wrong was not grant your every wish... even when it was against policy. 

 

Glad you survived but you need a chill pill too...

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Sorry, I never scream and I do act rationally and accept the culture that I am living in... in the case of the OP, he also did not scream but was angry at someone who was just doing their job and who sounded sympathetic... he was just in the wrong place.

Thats good... And of course no one has the right to raise their voice or be impolite in such situations (and we know thats not the case here).

 

But, the Op had every right to feel upset and voice that (not express it) to the person who is the representative of the establishment treating him with discrimination.

 

In this case, it would be fair of the Op to calmly and politely tell the Doctor that the act of discrimination to deny him needed medication is atrocious and ask that she pass that on to her supervisors.

 

 

Of course, we know that Thai culture and Kraeng-jai prevents such information from travelling up the chain which is why we witness such clumsy policies so frequently.... ultimately the decision makers operate in their own echo-chamber and never learn how wrong they often are until social media gets a hold of these things.