5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Let's hope that's correct. Because there is also good news about hydrogen. Lots actually, but here's one that is exceptionally good:

World's cheapest green hydrogen' | Start-up with ultra-efficient electrolyser to develop pilot factory after securing $29m

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/worlds-cheapest-green-hydrogen-start-up-with-ultra-efficient-electrolyser-to-develop-pilot-factory-after-securing-29m/2-1-1270403

I don't believe any electrolysis can be cheaper than the gallium-aluminium process

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not so.. Like Oxygen, Hydrogen naturally occurs in weakly-bonded pairs in the atmosphere.

EDIT: I just recalled that what binds the hydrogen atoms together is called a "covalent bond".

After Googling, I altered my earlier post.

6 minutes ago, tgw said:

I don't believe any electrolysis can be cheaper than the gallium-aluminium process

It does sound promising. I had read that gallium might be in short supply but that's more because of the lack of demand. Apparently, it can be processed from aluminium tailings:

 

“An enterprising French company came to Australia to build a side-stream gallium extraction plant at Pinjarra, next to one of the bauxite processing plants, and produced the world’s supply of gallium in a few months,” said Vernon.

“And then they had to turn it off, because gallium hadn’t taken off the way they thought it would, and if they kept it going it would kill the price of gallium.

“Gallium is on the critical list today – but you can still get your hands on some if you want it.”

https://www.proactiveinvestors.com.au/companies/news/977273/are-we-really-running-out-of-critical-minerals-977273.html

20 minutes ago, macahoom said:

If my memory of 'A-level' physics and chemistry from 54 years ago is correct, I think you mean to say "because it's the smallest of all atoms."

 

There's no such thing as a molecule of hydrogen; it's an element.

 

Edit: I just Googled this, and maybe I'm wrong and it is possible to have a molecule of hydrogen. Sorry! 

I forgive you but I don't know if hydrogen ever will.

Getting back to the question of taxation and how to fund infrastructure maintenance and improvements. These are currently funded via gasoline and diesel taxes paid at the pump.

 

It'll be interesting to see how California addresses this issue, with their mandate to completely phase out ICE vehicle sales by 2035. The phase-out will begin in 2026 with 35% required to be zero-emission or hybrid, ramping up to 100% by 2035.

 

My guess is that the lost tax revenue will be recovered in two components: an excise tax levied on the sale of a new EV, and an additional tax added to the annual registration fee (road tax) on EVs.

40 minutes ago, tgw said:

I don't believe any electrolysis can be cheaper than the gallium-aluminium process

Well get used to it - or get ready for cheaper and more productive methods - basically the situation is not static.

10 minutes ago, DrDave said:

Getting back to the question of taxation and how to fund infrastructure maintenance and improvements. These are currently funded via gasoline and diesel taxes paid at the pump.

 

It'll be interesting to see how California addresses this issue, with their mandate to completely phase out ICE vehicle sales by 2035. The phase-out will begin in 2026 with 35% required to be zero-emission or hybrid, ramping up to 100% by 2035.

 

My guess is that the lost tax revenue will be recovered in two components: an excise tax levied on the sale of a new EV, and an additional tax added to the annual registration fee (road tax) on EVs.

I think there are enough models around the world to charge for energy for that not to be a problem. Most of te sceptics on this thread are either out of date, missing part of the picture or judging from a very blinkered perspective.

48 minutes ago, tgw said:

I don't believe any electrolysis can be cheaper than the gallium-aluminium process

I've looked more into it. It does have limitations. For instance, the amount of hydrogen per gram of the alloy is used is far less than the weight of the alloy. 0.544% to be precise. Then the alloy has to be recycled. Which takes energy. I'm guessing less than the energy the hydrogen it produces can create otherwise what would be the point? Still it has some interesting features. It doesn't need pure water to function. It can work with seawater or contaminated water. 

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I don’t remember when I said expensive west but I do think that the cost of living in the west is much more expensive than here in SEA.

I also didn’t realise winter is over. I always thought winter was around December, January. 
 

268 kWh over 61 days averages out to 4.4 kWh per day. How do you manage that? My base load alone is around 15kWh per day.

I live in OZ in the west and winter is over now, I am not in Europe or US our spring starts in September and no I don't have a heater and never used a fan last summer when we had a heatwave and have not paid electricity for a long time because we still have it for free because of the pandemic. Don't believe me? I can send you a copy of my last bill. But I must mentioned I get subsidized by the government which I would not get in Thailand. I paid more on electricity in Thailand then I pay now, so I am not here to argue just stating the facts . And yes the cost of eletricty in the east of Australia is huge we all know that but is is your choice if you like to live there but I am happy to live in WA since about 40 years plus a few years in Thailand

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

Well get used to it - or get ready for cheaper and more productive methods - basically the situation is not static.

I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

27 minutes ago, still kicking said:

I live in OZ in the west and winter is over now, I am not in Europe or US our spring starts in September and no I don't have a heater and never used a fan last summer when we had a heatwave and have not paid electricity for a long time because we still have it for free because of the pandemic. Don't believe me? I can send you a copy of my last bill. But I must mentioned I get subsidized by the government which I would not get in Thailand. I paid more on electricity in Thailand then I pay now, so I am not here to argue just stating the facts . And yes the cost of eletricty in the east of Australia is huge we all know that but is is your choice if you like to live there but I am happy to live in WA since about 40 years plus a few years in Thailand

You mean electricity is free in WA because of the pandemic? That’s good.

38 minutes ago, tgw said:

I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

No - I think you don't understand me or hydrogen usage future.

49 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

You mean electricity is free in WA because of the pandemic? That’s good.

Yes it is but normally it is very cheap anyway I never been a Thai basher all my life and yes I lived in Thailand many years but I do need to report things

4 hours ago, kwilco said:

I think there are enough models around the world to charge for energy for that not to be a problem. Most of te sceptics on this thread are either out of date, missing part of the picture or judging from a very blinkered perspective.

Can you provide any examples of models that facilitate the funding of road transportation infrastructure (streets, highways and bridges) by those that actually use these resources? Fuel taxes are obvious, but that revenue will decline sharply in the future as California shifts to EVs. Sales and use taxes on vehicles could help fill that void, as excise taxes on new cars and tires did many years ago. Attempts to spread these costs over the general population via increased taxes has historically been met with resistance in the US.

1 hour ago, DrDave said:

Can you provide any examples of models that facilitate the funding of road transportation infrastructure (streets, highways and bridges) by those that actually use these resources? Fuel taxes are obvious, but that revenue will decline sharply in the future as California shifts to EVs. Sales and use taxes on vehicles could help fill that void, as excise taxes on new cars and tires did many years ago. Attempts to spread these costs over the general population via increased taxes has historically been met with resistance in the US.

I'm sorry but if you can't find out for yourself, you shouldn't be on this thread and certainly not sealioning me.

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

I guess to your way of thinking it's trivial that it's bound to save Gweiloman lots of money.

So now ... it has changed from being 'Free' to 'Saving money' ?

 

5 minutes ago, seedy said:

So now ... it has changed from being 'Free' to 'Saving money' ?

 

Well, as Gweiloman pointed out, since the solar system will pay for itself and more even without the car, it is perfectly legitimate to regard that as a freebie. But what's so pathetic is that you persist in trying to wring a petty victory out of the far more important fact that it's far cheaper for him to fuel his EV than it would be for him to fuel an ICE. Do you understand what "cheaper" means?

39 minutes ago, seedy said:

So now ... it has changed from being 'Free' to 'Saving money' ?

Still FREE.

 

We started our house build almost 2 yrs ago, Jan 2021, and bought the new 2020 MG ZS at end of Sept 2020, so an EV wasn't in the game plan, and solar planned strictly for the house.  5kW not quite enough to be independent of PEA, and 8kW system is turning into overkill, so plenty of excess.  FREE to use where ever.

 

Our Mazda 2 was a fine car, as I don't think intelligent people buy a new car, just to hold them over till the solar is installed, take a first or 2 yr depreciation loss of a new purchase, then buy a new EV, the exact same car, for ฿250k more.  

 

Ignorance, range & cost of EV were the reasons not to buy for us.  They increased the range, dropped the price (govt incentive) considerably, and another year of improvements, for same price as 2020 car.  So now a good idea for the EV.

 

So yes, our energy for the new EV, is FREE, and simply excess,, since an EV wasn't a thought back then.  The EV simply makes the ROI for the solar, that much sooner.  Win win all around.

This reminds me of when people book a 2 week cruise and tell me how wonderful  going on a cruise is as food /drink is FREE..

 

I used to tell them technically you have already paid that in the price but they wouldn't have it.

26 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Still FREE.

 

We started our house build almost 2 yrs ago, Jan 2021, and bought the new 2020 MG ZS at end of Sept 2020, so an EV wasn't in the game plan, and solar planned strictly for the house.  5kW not quite enough to be independent of PEA, and 8kW system is turning into overkill, so plenty of excess.  FREE to use where ever.

 

Our Mazda 2 was a fine car, as I don't think intelligent people buy a new car, just to hold them over till the solar is installed, take a first or 2 yr depreciation loss of a new purchase, then buy a new EV, the exact same car, for ฿250k more.  

 

Ignorance, range & cost of EV were the reasons not to buy for us.  They increased the range, dropped the price (govt incentive) considerably, and another year of improvements, for same price as 2020 car.  So now a good idea for the EV.

 

So yes, our energy for the new EV, is FREE, and simply excess,, since an EV wasn't a thought back then.  The EV simply makes the ROI for the solar, that much sooner.  Win win all around.

I know what you mean for you it would be free once the initial installation costs have been met but until then it's only helping to recuperate the costs.

 

As soon as the installation has paid for itself then from that point onwards you are getting what I would call free electricity 

 

Must admit I am interested in being able to run 2 a/c in the house on solar.

 

How much was you set up ?

 

Currently I am paying 3k a month on average .

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, kwak250 said:

I know what you mean for you it would be free once the initial installation costs have been met but until then it's only helping to recuperate the costs.

 

As soon as the installation has paid for itself then from that point onwards you are getting what I would call free electricity 

 

Must admit I am interested in being able to run 2 a/c in the house on solar.

 

How much was you set up ?

 

Currently I am paying 3k a month on average .

Our PEA bills at the rental, PEA rate, was same ballpark, ฿3-3500 a month of late, and before the current increases.

 

Solar system initial cost ฿345K (installed), than added the ESS for ฿100k more, so total all in, installed ฿445k.  So title of thread needs changing, 8kW w/20kW ESS.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1268214-solar-8kw-hybrid-inverter-w10kwh-essbattery-not-diy/

 

 

On 10/27/2022 at 11:51 AM, KhunLA said:

Our EV will be charged by solar, from home.  Free, yes, as have the solar system, and it will just be excess that isn't needed for the house.  When at home, won't really be driving more than 20 ish kms a day, if that, unless a local O&A (<300 kms r/t).  Then still it will be charged at home from solar.

 

Around town, the car's 50kW battery good for 350 ish kms, if just 1/10 or 35 kms, that 1/10 of 50kW is use, then all of 5kW.   Pretty sure there is a spare 5kw on the system daily.  On a partly cloudy day, it produced 50kW, and we only need 30kw if 'everything' is on, both AC's all day & cooking.   

 

With 20 excess available to be fed back to grid if wanting.  OK not now.  Or use 5kw of excess for the car.  Hmm ... let me think about that ... 

 

It not rocket science... just basic math, don't hurt yourself

 

blue/production, red/consumption

https://aseannow.com/topic/1268214-solar-8kw-hybrid-inverter-w10kwh-essbattery-not-diy/page/2/#comment-17624478

 

 

Interested in how much this system would cost ?

 

I would love to keep our air cons on all day and 50kw a day would more than cover it.

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Our PEA bills at the rental, PEA rate, was same ballpark, ฿3-3500 a month of late, and before the current increases.

 

Solar system initial cost ฿345K (installed), than added the ESS for ฿100k more, so total all in, installed ฿445k.  So title of thread needs changing, 8kW w/20kW ESS.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1268214-solar-8kw-hybrid-inverter-w10kwh-essbattery-not-diy/

 

 

Thanks i will have a read as we are looking at building a new house so this could be worth doing.
Just a quick calculation it would take maybe 12 years to have paid for itself if i am using ฿3k a month on average.

 

I know having an EV car would help reduce that but it just would not be practical for us as we do many long trips in a month but maybe a PHEV in the future could work ,

 

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Well, as Gweiloman pointed out, since the solar system will pay for itself and more even without the car, it is perfectly legitimate to regard that as a freebie. But what's so pathetic is that you persist in trying to wring a petty victory out of the far more important fact that it's far cheaper for him to fuel his EV than it would be for him to fuel an ICE. Do you understand what "cheaper" means?

Now gone from 'free' to 'cheaper'

 

2 minutes ago, seedy said:

Now gone from 'free' to 'cheaper'

 

You just can't admit that Gweiloman's choice was a profitable one.. And I conceded nothing to you. Only that even if I were to accept your understanding of the situation, Gweiloman's choice makes financial sense.

4 hours ago, kwak250 said:

This reminds me of when people book a 2 week cruise and tell me how wonderful  going on a cruise is as food /drink is FREE..

 

I used to tell them technically you have already paid that in the price but they wouldn't have it.

Look at it this way. You go on an all inclusive cruise where  food/drink is free. But as you probably know, signature restaurants and some alcoholic beverages still have to be paid for.

 

One day the hostess comes up to you and says that for tonight, dining at the fine dining French restaurant will not incur the normal surcharge plus a bottle of cab sav. Would you consider it a freebie?

32 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Look at it this way. You go on an all inclusive cruise where  food/drink is free. But as you probably know, signature restaurants and some alcoholic beverages still have to be paid for.

 

One day the hostess comes up to you and says that for tonight, dining at the fine dining French restaurant will not incur the normal surcharge plus a bottle of cab sav. Would you consider it a freebie?

Not very likely and if they offered you a bottle of cab sav then you obviously have paid way too much for the cruise.

9 hours ago, DrDave said:

Can you provide any examples of models that facilitate the funding of road transportation infrastructure (streets, highways and bridges) by those that actually use these resources? Fuel taxes are obvious, but that revenue will decline sharply in the future as California shifts to EVs. Sales and use taxes on vehicles could help fill that void, as excise taxes on new cars and tires did many years ago. Attempts to spread these costs over the general population via increased taxes has historically been met with resistance in the US.

Currently, 20 states have EV registration fees, ranging from $50 to $200. In states that have higher gas taxes, the $73 national average may not be the appropriate point of comparison. For example, California has an EV fee of $100, but its gas tax system means that EV drivers are not in fact paying more than comparable conventional vehicle drivers. Still, the $200 annual fee in Georgia and West Virginia is far above the annual gas tax paid by the driver of a new conventional vehicle.

https://pluginamerica.org/policy/ev-road-usage-fees/#:~:text=EVs do pay taxes that,and higher municipal excise taxes.

1 hour ago, kwak250 said:

Not very likely and if they offered you a bottle of cab sav then you obviously have paid way too much for the cruise.

Not when you are a frequent customer but that’s not the point, as you well know.

15 hours ago, kwilco said:

No - I think you don't understand me or hydrogen usage future.

so could you explain how electrolysis-based hydrogen production could be cheaper than aluminium-gallium based production ?