Rockets or missiles reported to have landed in Poland near Ukrainian border, killing 2

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, internationalism said:

no, they have called russian ambassador to the ministry of foreign affairs

Why? Did he fire the cruise missile that the air defense intercepted?

[Lacessit]

Given the Russian military is scavenging microchips out of washing machines and refrigerators for missile guidance, it's not surprising this would happen.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Given the Russian military is scavenging microchips out of washing machines and refrigerators for missile guidance, it's not surprising this would happen.

That's recent. These missiles are 40 or 50 years old.

[internationalism]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why? Did he fire the cruise missile that the air defense intercepted?

to stir the sh.t.

ask your the PM morawiecki why he did it.

He is a nationalist, check on his father biography, kornel morawiecki.

check on polish political elites and their rusofobia.

they live in the past. They don't feel part of an european union, push to leave it

Edited November 16, 2022 by internationalism

[ozimoron]

Just now, internationalism said:

to stir the sh.t.

ask your the PM morawiecki why he did it.

He is a nationalist, check on his father biography, kornel morawiecki.

check on polish political elites and their rusofobia.

they live in the past. They don't feel part of an european union

A nationalist, huh? He should be pals with Putin then.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, internationalism said:

to stir the sh.t.

ask your the PM morawiecki why he did it.

He is a nationalist, check on his father biography, kornel morawiecki.

check on polish political elites and their rusofobia.

they live in the past. They don't feel part of an european union

My PM? I have no need to ask anyone, I read the source reports, Scott Ridder is not one of them.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

That's recent. These missiles are 40 or 50 years old.

I would not expect a 50 yo missile to perform as well as one manufactured today to the same specifications. Metals corrode, propellants become unstable, polymers degrade.

[internationalism]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

A nationalist, huh? He should be pals with Putin then.

putin's father was a cook, morawiecki's father was a nationalist politician.

Russia consist of some 20 republics, all different ethnicities, their population is a large part of country. And they all serve in an army now in ukraine.

Putin's nationalism is much different to morawiecki's or biden's nationalisms.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by internationalism

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, internationalism said:

putin's father was a cook, morawiecki's father was a nationalist politician.

Russia consist of some 20 republics, all different ethnicities, their population is a large part of country. And they all serve in an army now in ukraine.

Putin's nationalism is much different to morawiecki's or biden's nationalisms.

 

I didn't realise that nationalism came in different flavours. Care to explain the differences?

[internationalism]

24 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I didn't realise that nationalism came in different flavours. Care to explain the differences?

putin, as a president of 20 republics, each with different national languages, national anthems, and each with their own constitution, is a much different to president biden or president of poland. He can't be a russian nationalist, that would mean serious internal conflict.

There are russian ultra-nationalists, for example zirinovski's party. But they are far away from kremlin or local governments. They are in opposition to Putin. It was zirinovski pushing for war with nato. Putin wanted to join nato, but his offer was rejected

Edited November 16, 2022 by internationalism

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, internationalism said:

putin, as a president of 20 republics, each with different national languages, national anthems, and each has their own constitution, is a much different to president biden or president of poland. He can't be a russian nationalist, that would mean serious internal conflict.

There are russian ultra-nationalists, for example zirinovski's party. But they are far away from kremlin or local governments. They are in opposition to Putin. It was zirinovski pushing for war with nato. Putin wanted to join nato, but his offer was rejected

Rubbish, Putin was invited to join NATO. Russia demurred.

 

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Rubbish, Putin was invited to join NATO. Russia demurred.

 

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

Although Putin has never been invited to join NATO and the link you provided doesn't state that he was 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although Putin has never been invited to join NATO and the link you provided doesn't state that he was 

It clearly states that Russia was the obstacle, particularly Putin.

 

In his early years, Putin saw Russia’s “integration with the West and its institutions” as a policy priority of the time, according to Simons. But he did not want to stand “in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter” to enter NATO. Putin’s rise to power was also largely related to the support of Siloviki, an anti-Western alliance of Russian security establishment. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It clearly states that Russia was the obstacle, particularly Putin.

 

In his early years, Putin saw Russia’s “integration with the West and its institutions” as a policy priority of the time, according to Simons. But he did not want to stand “in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter” to enter NATO. Putin’s rise to power was also largely related to the support of Siloviki, an anti-Western alliance of Russian security establishment. 

Oh yeah......................it says that Putin was invited to join NATO..........I must have missed that ????

[internationalism]

25 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Rubbish, Putin was invited to join NATO. Russia demurred.

 

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

have you read article you quoted:

"But at one point in history, Putin’s Russia wanted to join NATO. 

“Russia is part of European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world. So it is hard for me to visualise NATO as an enemy,” said Putin, the country’s acting president in 2000, three weeks before the election, which made him president. 

At the time, Putin’s words were interpreted as extending an olive branch to the West. Since then, Putin has been in power, rising to the occasion and becoming the sole decision-maker of the country. 

The same year, according to the then-NATO chief George Robertson, Putin blantly asked “When are you going to invite us to join Nato?” Robertson advised the Russian president that he needs to “apply to join NATO” and not expect an invitation. 

...

Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. "

Edited November 16, 2022 by internationalism

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh yeah......................it says that Putin was invited to join NATO..........I must have missed that ????

Russian President Vladimir Putin has claimed that he once raised the possibility of Russia joining NATO with then-President Bill Clinton, and that Clinton said he had "no objection."

Putin delivered this account in a series of interviews with U.S. film director Oliver Stone set to air later this month on the U.S. television network Showtime.
 

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-putin-says-discussed-joining-nato-with-clinton/28526757.html

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, internationalism said:

have you read article you quoted:

"But at one point in history, Putin’s Russia wanted to join NATO. 

“Russia is part of European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world. So it is hard for me to visualise NATO as an enemy,” said Putin, the country’s acting president in 2000, three weeks before the election, which made him president. 

At the time, Putin’s words were interpreted as extending an olive branch to the West. Since then, Putin has been in power, rising to the occasion and becoming the sole decision-maker of the country. 

The same year, according to the then-NATO chief George Robertson, Putin bluntly asked: “When are you going to invite us to join Nato?” Robertson advised the Russian president that he needs to “apply to join NATO” and not expect an invitation. 

...

Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. "

The salient point is that there was never any western resistance to Russia joining NATO and the only reason it didn't was because Putin decided not to join.

Edited November 16, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has claimed that he once raised the possibility of Russia joining NATO with then-President Bill Clinton, and that Clinton said he had "no objection."

Putin delivered this account in a series of interviews with U.S. film director Oliver Stone set to air later this month on the U.S. television network Showtime.
 

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-putin-says-discussed-joining-nato-with-clinton/28526757.html

Is it Trumps fault that Russia didn't join NATO ?

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Is it Trumps fault that Russia didn't join NATO ?

I didn't think it was anything to do with Trump. Putin had taken that decision long before Trump peed in a Moscow hotel bed.

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I didn't think it was anything to do with Trump. Putin had taken that decision long before Trump peed in a Moscow hotel bed.

You aren't making much sense .

Russia/Putin have never been asked to join NATO and Putin has never declined the offer (because it was never made) .

   Clinton saying Russia and NATO in the same sentence doesn't make that an offer to join 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You aren't making much sense .

Russia/Putin have never been asked to join NATO and Putin has never declined the offer (because it was never made) .

   Clinton saying Russia and NATO in the same sentence doesn't make that an offer to join 

 

Putin asked and as not rebuffed but did not follow through. Unlike Trump who regularly does.

[hotchilli]

23 hours ago, vandeventer said:

When you are near a war zone sh-- happens. Whether it was Russia or Ukraine that fired the missiles, lets hope it's not the start of something that can go out of control.

I'd say Putin has already got out of control..

[vandeventer]

18 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

I'd say Putin has already got out of control..

We all know this, but we don't know how far Putin wants to take this war.

[hotchilli]

16 minutes ago, vandeventer said:

We all know this, but we don't know how far Putin wants to take this war.

I don't think he likes losing.. or backing down..

He needs to be stopped from within.

[Hanaguma]

Back to the missiles, now it turns out that they were likely fired by UKRANIAN forces....

 

The leaders of Poland and NATO said the missile that killed two people in Polish territory on Tuesday was likely fired by Ukrainian forces defending their country against a barrage of Russian strikes, and that the incident appeared to be an accident.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1277924-rockets-or-missiles-reported-to-have-landed-in-poland-near-ukrainian-border-killing-2/page/4/#comments

 

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, internationalism said:

putin's father was a cook, morawiecki's father was a nationalist politician.

Russia consist of some 20 republics, all different ethnicities, their population is a large part of country. And they all serve in an army now in ukraine.

Putin's nationalism is much different to morawiecki's or biden's nationalisms.

 

And like Dugin, Putin believes that the Russians should rule over their little brothers and sisters.

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You aren't making much sense .

Russia/Putin have never been asked to join NATO and Putin has never declined the offer (because it was never made) .

   Clinton saying Russia and NATO in the same sentence doesn't make that an offer to join 

 

You sure about that?

When Putin Loved NATO
Former NATO Secretary-General George Robertson, who had a cordial relationship with the Russian leader, recalls an era when Moscow wanted closer ties with the West.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/

Edited November 17, 2022 by placeholder

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

You sure about that?

When Putin Loved NATO
Former NATO Secretary-General George Robertson, who had a cordial relationship with the Russian leader, recalls an era when Moscow wanted closer ties with the West.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/

Yes, I am sure about that , your link doesn't show that Putin rejected an offer to join NATO

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I am sure about that , your link doesn't show that Putin rejected an offer to join NATO

Well, he rejected the opportunity to join NATO.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, he rejected the opportunity to join NATO.

No he didnt , Russia has never been asked to join NATO