Independence referendum: Scottish government loses indyref2 court case

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Do give it a rest about the USA .

Scotland has their own Parliament , as do the Irish and Welsh.

England is the only Country that doesn't have their own Parliament .

  Westminster is made up of England , Scotland , N.Ireland and Wales and its located in London 

England has the overwhelming majority of MPs. It has no need for a second chamber. 

[metisdead]

A troll post has been removed.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

There are 5m people in Scotland.  There are 55m in England.  It's ridiculous to suggest that those 5m in Scotland should have equal weight with the 55m in England on matters that affect the UK as a whole.    England does not even have a say on matters that purely affect England.   Scottish MPs in Westminster have the ability to vote against bills passed that only affect England, whereas English MPs cannot vote against measures decided in Scottish parliament.   

 

There is an imbalance of democracy for sure here, but is not in England's favour.   Independence is just a distraction to tell Scots to look over there at the nasty English and ignore the mess she is making of the NHS, Education and the drugs issues in Scotland.   Perhaps if she focused on the stuff within her control and not on the stuff outside of her control Scotland would be doing better and the Scots would complain less.  

Even more reason why Scotland probably wants independence now. They will always be overruled by the barbarians south of the wall..

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, James105 said:

There are 5m people in Scotland.  There are 55m in England.  It's ridiculous to suggest that those 5m in Scotland should have equal weight with the 55m in England on matters that affect the UK as a whole.    England does not even have a say on matters that purely affect England.   Scottish MPs in Westminster have the ability to vote against bills passed that only affect England, whereas English MPs cannot vote against measures decided in Scottish parliament.   

 

There is an imbalance of democracy for sure here, but is not in England's favour.   Independence is just a distraction to tell Scots to look over there at the nasty English and ignore the mess she is making of the NHS, Education and the drugs issues in Scotland.   Perhaps if she focused on the stuff within her control and not on the stuff outside of her control Scotland would be doing better and the Scots would complain less.  

The day after the independence vote, rather than fulfill his pledge to make Holyrood the most powerful devolved administration in the world, Cameron implemented EVEL. That's your English parliament right there.

 

As for the SG performance in education, health - it is head and shoulders above the English equivalents. Drugs are a disgrace, I grant you but the roots are complex and go back to even before Thatcher did her utmost to destroy the things she didn't like - IE the working class.

[James105]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Even more reason why Scotland probably wants independence now. They will always be overruled by the barbarians south of the wall..

Sure, and thats no different to 2014 is it when they had a chance to do something about it.   Now they need to move on and accept the result from 8 years ago.   People on here that complain when the likes of Trump lose badly should take a good hard look in the mirror I think.  

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

Sure, and thats no different to 2014 is it when they had a chance to do something about it.   Now they need to move on and accept the result from 8 years ago.   People on here that complain when the likes of Trump lose badly should take a good hard look in the mirror I think.  

They probably wouldn't be so concerned if their wishes hadn't been trodden over by a tiny majority. Britain is finding out what happens when you play zero sum politics.

Edited November 24, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

England has the overwhelming majority of MPs. It has no need for a second chamber. 

Scottish people have a say in the things that only effect England , English people do not have a say in the things that only effect Scotland 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

They probably wouldn't be so concerned if their wishes hadn't been trodden over by a tiny majority. Britain is finding out what happens when you play zero sum politics.

A majority is a majority , doesn't matter how big/small that majority is .

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Sure, and thats no different to 2014 is it when they had a chance to do something about it.   Now they need to move on and accept the result from 8 years ago.   People on here that complain when the likes of Trump lose badly should take a good hard look in the mirror I think.  

Always the way : "Its OK if I do it , but unacceptable when other people do the same thing"

   "Hes an unpatriotic , anti democracy dictator who doesn't accept the election results and should be in jail...................but I dont accept  THESE election results and they  should be invalidated because it was a close run thing * ???? 

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Nah.

 

Sturgeon is just using that as an attempt to justify re-running the vote. She wants to ruin Scotland for her own personal ambition. She'd rather have total power over an unsuccessful country than limited power over a successful one. I don't think the Scots are silly enough to fall for it.

Nah. Since Brexit happened against the Scot’s will, they should be allowed a say on whether to remain in a union after such a huge, economically perilous, change. 

[Chomper Higgot]

I can think of no better way to convince people they want something than to have someone they already distrust tell them they can’t have it.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[RayC]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

When you look at the poll data they surveyed a whopping 1708 people and the survey was sponsored by the Times , I wouldn't expect the Times to pay for a survey that stated anything different

The question asked was:

"In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" What's the problem with that?

 

Any proof that the methodology used by YouGov - arguably the most respected pollsters - was flawed?

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We have put them in power in successive SG elections since 2010. If they were truly as bad as you seem to think, do you really think that would have happened?

You have to admit it is a possibility. After all, the Tories have also been in power since 2010.

 

Btw: Welcome back. Good to see you posting again.

Edited November 24, 2022 by RayC
Addition

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

In fact, every country should have agreed before Brexit could proceed.

Rules are agreed upon before the referendum and everyone must abide by those agreed upon rules after the referendum .

    Moving the goalposts after the event isn't acceptable in a democratic vote

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scottish people have a say in the things that only effect England , English people do not have a say in the things that only effect Scotland 

EVEL did away with that until last year, when it was rescinded, however the reality is that there are very few English only laws which pass through WM. Most have at least a tangential impact on the devolved nations by way of Barnett consequentials.

[vinny41]

41 minutes ago, RayC said:

The question asked was:

"In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?" What's the problem with that?

 

Any proof that the methodology used by YouGov - arguably the most respected pollsters - was flawed?

 

 

Where did I say the methodology used by YouGov was flawed  I did point  out only 1708 people took part in the survey and the survey was sponsored by the Times newspaper.

I know loads of people that didn't bother to vote on 23rd June as they believed that it was a forgone conclusion that remain would win as that it what the pollsters were predicating

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

EVEL did away with that until last year, when it was rescinded, however the reality is that there are very few English only laws which pass through WM. Most have at least a tangential impact on the devolved nations by way of Barnett consequentials.

Scotland has control of their finances , they can give free prescriptions solely to Scottish people , England cannot do that 

[Bluespunk]

28 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Rules are agreed upon before the referendum and everyone must abide by those agreed upon rules after the referendum .

    Moving the goalposts after the event isn't acceptable in a democratic vote

What goalposts were moved?

 

As far as I know there was nothing in the legislation that said another referendum couldn’t be held.
 

Nor is there anything stating there must be a set time between referendums. 

 

Now if I am wrong then please be so good and direct me to the specific legislation that shows there is a legal reason another referendum cannot be held at this time. 

[ozimoron]

49 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Rules are agreed upon before the referendum and everyone must abide by those agreed upon rules after the referendum .

    Moving the goalposts after the event isn't acceptable in a democratic vote

Wasn't Brexit moving the goal posts?

 

There is no limit to the number of referendums a country can have or how frequently. Furthermore, please enlighten me if the independence referendum carried a forever clause. I'll wait.

Edited November 24, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Wasn't Brexit moving the goal posts?

 

There is no limit to the number of referendums a country can have or how frequently. Furthermore, please enlighten me if the independence referendum carried a forever clause. I'll wait.

You went from talking about Brexit to talking about the Scottish independence referendum .

  Not only have you moves the goalposts  , you are now shooting down the other end of the pitch .

   Prior to the Brexit referendum, it was stated that there would be one and one only and there wouldn't be second one . You then suggested there should be a new rule about Brexit where the regional vote took preference over the National vote (That was moving the goalposts about Brexit)

  Now you are shooting down the other end of the pitch by referring to the Scottish referendum having another go at that .

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

You went from talking about Brexit to talking about the Scottish independence referendum .

  Not only have you moves the goalposts  , you are now shooting down the other end of the pitch .

   Prior to the Brexit referendum, it was stated that there would be one and one only and there wouldn't be second one . You then suggested there should be a new rule about Brexit where the regional vote took preference over the National vote (That was moving the goalposts about Brexit)

  Now you are shooting down the other end of the pitch by referring to the Scottish referendum having another go at that .

Link please or stop trolling.

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Link please or stop trolling.

If you are unaware that U.K Prime Minister David Cameroon announced that there would just be the one referendum , that announcement came prior to the referendum , then you really shouldn't be commenting on an issue that you are ignorant about .

   Cameroon stated beforehand there would be just one referendum and that would the final .

   Do you really need me to  do a websearch to find that common knowledge for you?

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you are unaware that U.K Prime Minister David Cameroon announced that there would just be the one referendum , that announcement came prior to the referendum , then you really shouldn't be commenting on an issue that you are ignorant about .

   Cameroon stated beforehand there would be just one referendum and that would the final .

   Do you really need me to  do a websearch to find that common knowledge for you?

 I'm looking for a written rule, otherwise it's political bluster.

[Scott]

A video from an unapproved source has been reported and removed. 

 

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scotland is the UK  , Scotland is part of the U.K and the U.K decides , that is democracy .

  Scotland were given the opportunity to leave the U.K and the people of Scotland voted against  leaving 

 

And it was agreed that it was a once in a lifetime vote (in practice 30-40 years). 

 

We are the UK.  Many more people want it to stay that way than want it changed.

 

Even if it is a 50/50 thing, what Scots nationalists don't realise is that even in Scotland about 50% of the people won't want it. They push 'freedom' and 'independence' for all Scots like it really really matters, but don't give a toss for the half of their countrymen that don't want it.

 

And of course Scotland is just about as free as a country can be anyway- probably more so than England actually, which is wholly bound by UK law.

 

 

[vinny41]

Mr Cameron said there would be "no second referendum" once Britain has voted. "This choice cannot be undone, if we vote to leave then we will leave," he said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-cameron-says-he-will-ask-eu-leaders-for-clear-legallybinding-commitment-to-exempt-uk-from-evercloser-union-a6728181.html

 

If any county was to insist to the EU that a condition of them joining the EU would be 

1) The will hold a referendum every 5 years on EU membership In/Out

2) They are unable to enter into any Policies and funding plans that extend further than 5 years

 

I think everyone knows that the EU would simple say thanks but no thanks

 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Mr Cameron said there would be "no second referendum" once Britain has voted. "This choice cannot be undone, if we vote to leave then we will leave," he said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/david-cameron-says-he-will-ask-eu-leaders-for-clear-legallybinding-commitment-to-exempt-uk-from-evercloser-union-a6728181.html

 

If any county was to insist to the EU that a condition of them joining the EU would be 

1) The will hold a referendum every 5 years on EU membership In/Out

2) They are unable to enter into any Policies and funding plans that extend further than 5 years

 

I think everyone knows that the EU would simple say thanks but no thanks

 

On what basis? The EU is more likely to recognise national sovereignty. If the government changes the policy could well change as well. And that goes for every country. If new government replaces the current one they are very likely to conclude that the original brexit vote was an unmitigated disaster which can only be remedied by rejoining. The EU is not going to refuse that.

Edited November 24, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

And it was agreed that it was a once in a lifetime vote (in practice 30-40 years). 

 

We are the UK.  Many more people want it to stay that way than want it changed.

 

Even if it is a 50/50 thing, what Scots nationalists don't realise is that even in Scotland about 50% of the people won't want it. They push 'freedom' and 'independence' for all Scots like it really really matters, but don't give a toss for the half of their countrymen that don't want it.

 

And of course Scotland is just about as free as a country can be anyway- probably more so than England actually, which is wholly bound by UK law.

 

 

Just need to remind Scottish people that if they left the U.K , they would have to take their share in the National debt with them, which currently stands at about 150 000 Quid per person 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just need to remind Scottish people that if they left the U.K , they would have to take their share in the National debt with them, which currently stands at about 150 000 Quid per person 

Are they somehow not liable for that anyway?

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Are they somehow not liable for that anyway?

But that debt is currently parked at Westminster in England

Would have to move the debt to Holyrood in Scotland if they became independent