DeSantis’s request for COVID vaccine probe denounced by health experts

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

If you are so eager to know, then why don't you start by reading scientific publications about it? A large amount of data is already available, and has been investigated. Some links have been already provided in this thread.

 

Here's a meta-analysis of the different studies. It also references most of the scientific studies made so far.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/12/2/e050278

 

As mentioned by Bkk Brian, it takes long time to do a serious scientific investigation, such as the one I linked, and to have a Grand Jury making this assessment instead of scientists is a joke.

 

Science is like castor oil for the vaccine deniers.

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

development has nothing to do with it.  It's the mandates to force people to get an experimental drug, to attend school or work that is the issue.

 

Vaccines effectiveness is very questionable ... IMHO

So the Covid unvaccinated dying in significantly higher numbers than those who were vaccinated is cause by.....??

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Oh OK I get it now. Like everything else, this is really about Trump as far as you are concerned.

 

Forget uncovering the truth, Orange Man Bad is far more important. 

Understandably your first reaction is to defend Trump. But think about it after your emotional outburst. Trump funded the $10 billion program to help develope the vaccines. His administration has knowledge that could be useful information for the grand jury. Why try to protect him to hide the truth. Nothing to hide as you brillantly said.  

[Tippaporn]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:54 PM, Phoenix Rising said:

There's no point. The anti-vaxxers we interact with here are impervious to facts and are so firmly and deeply lodged in the rabbit hole there's no way back for them. Take the clear and obvious correlation between vaccination rates and death rates. A moderately intelligent 5 year old would come to the obvious conclusion presented with the data from the CDC, but not these guys. Quite fascinating to watch them, really.

Did you ever consider that we have facts which you are ignorant of?  The MSM keeps you in the dark.  Not only that, they work to discredit the truth.  The truth is everywhere if you look for it.  But you'll never look outside your self created paradigm since you've been so indoctrinated to believe everything outside of that paradigm is a lie.  There's a great big world out there if you've the courage to step outside of your safe space.

Give DeSantis and Dr. Ladapo huge credit for possessing the courage to face the oncoming onslaught that the media and big pharma will most assuredly attempt to wreak on them.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Tippaporn

[candide]

18 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Did you ever consider that we have facts which you are ignorant of?  The MSM keeps you in the dark.  Not only that, they work to discredit the truth.  The truth is everywhere if you look for it.  But you'll never look outside your self created paradigm since you've been so indoctrinated to believe everything outside of that paradigm is a lie.  There's a great big world out there if you've the courage to step outside of your safe space.

Give DeSantis and Dr. Ladapo huge credit for possessing the courage to face the oncoming onslaught that the media and big pharma will most assuredly attempt to wreak on them.

 

B.S.! It's not about believing MSM, etc... It's about believing scientifically validated data and analyses. 

[Tug]

32 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Did you ever consider that we have facts which you are ignorant of?  The MSM keeps you in the dark.  Not only that, they work to discredit the truth.  The truth is everywhere if you look for it.  But you'll never look outside your self created paradigm since you've been so indoctrinated to believe everything outside of that paradigm is a lie.  There's a great big world out there if you've the courage to step outside of your safe space.

Give DeSantis and Dr. Ladapo huge credit for possessing the courage to face the oncoming onslaught that the media and big pharma will most assuredly attempt to wreak on them.

 

No sir they knowingly cost lives and further seed this virus in a quest for power it’s in my opinion a major crime and I wish people like this would be imprisoned for knowingly spreading this life costing bs furthermore no one has the right to spread disease all stop the facts speak for themselves what they are doing is pandering for votes it’s bunk and criminal in my opinion 

[TorquayFan]

Re Ron De Santis - vax issues have to be questioned.

 

In the UK there are similar contentions https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d0cc6561-6ab9-46ea-8d6d-f07ac0cf136d and the notable Andrew Bridgen MP's comments at 7.04 pm

 

1. It's said there have been almost 500,000 yellow card reports of adverse effects relating to the use of the Pfizer/BioNTech MRNA covid vaccines and apparently this is more than total reported yellow cards from all sources over the last 40 years. It's also held that normally it's just 1 in 10 of these events that get reported . . .

 

The journal 'Vaccine' analysed the original Pfizer trial data and concluded that one in 800 adverse reactions ranked as SERIOUS 'adverse events', more than the chances of being hospitalised with the original wuhan strain.

 

2. The original emergency approval for the Pfizer covid vaccine was given because it showed it reduced the risk of infection by 95%, (is that an absolute risk reduction of 95%?)

 

Later data from the Omicron era says the absolute risk reduction is 0.84% meaning that 119 people are treated to prevent 1 infection and that for people over the age of 80, 7,380 people need the vax to prevent 1 death and that number becomes enormous with younger age groups.

 

3. A paper from Israel showed a 25% increase in cardiac arrests in 16-39 year olds and the UK showed an extra 14,000 cardiac arrests in 2021 over 2020. Myself I've seen many other reports of this nature.

 

4. The MP feels that FDA/MHRA would be more independent if not mainly financed directly or indirectly through Pharma and that all trial data should be in public domain.

 

In concluding the MP implores the Govt to halt the use of MRNA vaccines completely and whilst the debate doesn't bubble on, there are frequent reports of the Govt making massive commitments, (not disclosed) to Moderna for massive future supplies of MRNA covid vaccines, presumably as updated for new variants. Similar reports from Canada, Australia, the USA.

 

Are the UK Govt  locked into early 2020 panic mode as far as Covid is concerned ?

I've tried hard to understand what's going on here. I may have misinterpreted something, in which case, I am eager to learn. Covid wise I am not 'vax' or 'anti vax' but I want to know more about what's going on. OK my comments are about the UK but it's likely that Thailand will follow Europe/USA in their future moves so it affects us here.

 

MMmmmmm

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed.  

 

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Did you ever consider that we have facts which you are ignorant of?  The MSM keeps you in the dark.  Not only that, they work to discredit the truth.  The truth is everywhere if you look for it.  But you'll never look outside your self created paradigm since you've been so indoctrinated to believe everything outside of that paradigm is a lie.  There's a great big world out there if you've the courage to step outside of your safe space.

Give DeSantis and Dr. Ladapo huge credit for possessing the courage to face the oncoming onslaught that the media and big pharma will most assuredly attempt to wreak on them.

 

Which is why research published in the most highly rated scientific journals don't support your allegations? Because of some kind of conspiracy?

[TorquayFan]

 

Generally I have been in favour of the covid vaccines throughout, but as more data emerges, I am really beginning to wonder. But it is hard to have a discussion when everything is doubted and there are allegations of conspiracy theory applied when it suits.

 

IMHO the anti-vax at the start of Covid, had no facts and their positions were based on prejudice only, but as time goes on, we have got a lot more actual information arising which I am finding hard to ignore.

 

My youngest Son is in Florida - I dont think Ron de Santis is manipulating this - he should be heard.

 

Likewise, the MP Andrew Bridgen in his recent speech in my post above, made many good points worthy to consider.

 

I havent even mentioned this Dr Malhotra and his comments - concerns about the increase in heart problems are valid.

 

Just suggesting, instead of trading positions, we should look at facts as they are now.

 

In the face of valid doubts, Moderna are making international efforts to install MRNA vax by the billion around the World - lets be sure about the MRNA before we go along with that !

 

[Bkk Brian]

10 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Re Ron De Santis - vax issues have to be questioned.

 

In the UK there are similar contentions https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d0cc6561-6ab9-46ea-8d6d-f07ac0cf136d and the notable Andrew Bridgen MP's comments at 7.04 pm

 

1. It's said there have been almost 500,000 yellow card reports of adverse effects relating to the use of the Pfizer/BioNTech MRNA covid vaccines and apparently this is more than total reported yellow cards from all sources over the last 40 years. It's also held that normally it's just 1 in 10 of these events that get reported . . .

 

The journal 'Vaccine' analysed the original Pfizer trial data and concluded that one in 800 adverse reactions ranked as SERIOUS 'adverse events', more than the chances of being hospitalised with the original wuhan strain.

 

2. The original emergency approval for the Pfizer covid vaccine was given because it showed it reduced the risk of infection by 95%, (is that an absolute risk reduction of 95%?)

 

Later data from the Omicron era says the absolute risk reduction is 0.84% meaning that 119 people are treated to prevent 1 infection and that for people over the age of 80, 7,380 people need the vax to prevent 1 death and that number becomes enormous with younger age groups.

 

3. A paper from Israel showed a 25% increase in cardiac arrests in 16-39 year olds and the UK showed an extra 14,000 cardiac arrests in 2021 over 2020. Myself I've seen many other reports of this nature.

 

4. The MP feels that FDA/MHRA would be more independent if not mainly financed directly or indirectly through Pharma and that all trial data should be in public domain.

 

In concluding the MP implores the Govt to halt the use of MRNA vaccines completely and whilst the debate doesn't bubble on, there are frequent reports of the Govt making massive commitments, (not disclosed) to Moderna for massive future supplies of MRNA covid vaccines, presumably as updated for new variants. Similar reports from Canada, Australia, the USA.

 

Are the UK Govt  locked into early 2020 panic mode as far as Covid is concerned ?

I've tried hard to understand what's going on here. I may have misinterpreted something, in which case, I am eager to learn. Covid wise I am not 'vax' or 'anti vax' but I want to know more about what's going on. OK my comments are about the UK but it's likely that Thailand will follow Europe/USA in their future moves so it affects us here.

 

MMmmmmm

 

 

The thing with a parliamentary debate is that's its democratic even when Andrew Bridgen makes misleading claims and some pure conspiracy theories. The point of a debate is that there are two sides and you fail to have transcribed the full reply from the cabinet minister which covered just about all his points including the conspiracies. The response is all there in the video.

 

If that's not enough, this also goes through some of his misleading claims:

 

Andrew Bridgen's vaccine debate claims fact checked

https://fullfact.org/health/andrew-bridgen-vaccine-safety-debate/

 

He has been fact checked before for misleading claims and asked for a response, he declined

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[TorquayFan]

Thanks Brian - I will study that - absolute - and - relative risk - bit later. Got a blind spot there and do not get it atm.

 

Some good points in your link. Andrew Bridgen may be an unusual MP but we have to assess what he says - but it is already decided who he is apparently.

 

For me 500,000 yellow cards is enough to cause some alarm never mind the accompanying doubts on the 1 in 10. And all the evidence of excess heart deaths including comments from Dr Malhotra are hard to dismiss.

 

And it is a fact I believe that Pharma finance MHRA and FDA directly or indirectly to some extent, so plenty of grey areas and influences at work.

 

I did listen to the routine reply from the Minister but thought it a simple put down of the inconvenient, as would be expected.

 

I want to know more about these heart stats.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, TorquayFan said:

Thanks Brian - I will study that - absolute - and - relative risk - bit later. Got a blind spot there and do not get it atm.

 

Some good points in your link. Andrew Bridgen may be an unusual MP but we have to assess what he says - but it is already decided who he is apparently.

 

For me 500,000 yellow cards is enough to cause some alarm never mind the accompanying doubts on the 1 in 10. And all the evidence of excess heart deaths including comments from Dr Malhotra are hard to dismiss.

 

And it is a fact I believe that Pharma finance MHRA and FDA directly or indirectly to some extent, so plenty of grey areas and influences at work.

 

I did listen to the routine reply from the Minister but thought it a simple put down of the inconvenient, as would be expected.

 

I want to know more about these heart stats.

The yellow cards issue was fully explained in the response by the cabinet minister and also in the fact check. Dr Malhotra's unsuppoted article is also well documented and unsubstantiated.

 

Article by cardiologist Aseem Malhotra made unsupported claims about the benefits and risks of COVID-19 vaccination

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/article-by-cardiologist-aseem-malhotra-made-unsupported-claims-about-benefits-risks-covid-19-vaccination/

 

If you want a recent robust and peer reviewed study:

New evidence finds heart conditions extremely rare after COVID-19 vaccination

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-evidence-finds-heart-conditions-extremely-rare-after-covid-19-vaccination

[Bkk Brian]

24 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks Brian - I have looked at your links but I do not find them any more substantial than the links showing concern about the MNRA vax such as this one  https://worldcouncilforhealth.org/multimedia/aseem-malhotra-press-conference/

 

Dr Malhotra likes to play the influencer but on the other hand, his pedigree is very impressive. IMO if MRNA concerns are well founded it will become evident as time goes on and more evidence is found.

 

In the meantime, those for and against MRNA should accept that others may have an honest but different view. Being dismissive and invoking conspiracy theory does not help and that can be played both ways of course.

 

Whilst disagreements persist, I am concerned about the MRNA and hope that a 2nd Generation vaccine with more universal coverage will come along, possibly a DNA vax - ( I have declared my interest in this before, Scancell and Covidity).

 

Well see. Thanks and ATB - off to repair my apostrophe LOL

That is a two part article authored by him alone not a scientific study, not only have I provided a full fact check on that I have additionally posted for your attention a robust and recent fully peer reviewed study that finds very different results to his articles. 

 

Your link by the way, perhaps steer clear of the conspiracy theories..................

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-council-for-health-bias/

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Phoenix Rising]

15 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Did you ever consider that we have facts which you are ignorant of? 

Yet every time you non-lemmings link to this "alternative truth" that you've discovered it invariable leads to sites so full of utter drivel a 12 y/o with even a moderate ability of critical thinking can see through it instantly. 

Get help now!

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

 

Generally I have been in favour of the covid vaccines throughout, but as more data emerges, I am really beginning to wonder. But it is hard to have a discussion when everything is doubted and there are allegations of conspiracy theory applied when it suits.

 

IMHO the anti-vax at the start of Covid, had no facts and their positions were based on prejudice only, but as time goes on, we have got a lot more actual information arising which I am finding hard to ignore.

 

My youngest Son is in Florida - I dont think Ron de Santis is manipulating this - he should be heard.

 

Likewise, the MP Andrew Bridgen in his recent speech in my post above, made many good points worthy to consider.

 

I havent even mentioned this Dr Malhotra and his comments - concerns about the increase in heart problems are valid.

 

Just suggesting, instead of trading positions, we should look at facts as they are now.

 

In the face of valid doubts, Moderna are making international efforts to install MRNA vax by the billion around the World - lets be sure about the MRNA before we go along with that !

 

1. Why are the Chinese suffering so badly when the only difference is a lack of effective vaccines in that country?

 

2. Far more issues were reported using AZ vaccines in younger people than ever was the case for mRNA vaccines. My second vaccine (after AZ) had to be Pfizer for that reason and because I was considered to be in the older, safe age bracket, I had to get a GP to write to the Aust. government to get approval.

 

sources: many links posted in earlier threads covering all these topics. I don't think it's necessary to post links when rehashing old arguments where the links have all been posted so many times previously.

Edited December 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[TorquayFan]

OZI - yes that is right about A-Z. And it has been quietly withdrawn from use.

 

Brian - thanks for Media fact check. MMmmm. Thats handy.

 

There is IMO enough evidence around for us at least to be wary and keep an open mind on the MHRA and as time goes on, more facts may emerge. I hope the situation does not become such that its right to consider another booster!

[ThailandRyan]

On 12/27/2022 at 1:13 PM, Tippaporn said:

This is to appease @Bkk Brian>

". . . conspiracy theory . . . "

Is that all you've got, placeholder?  Call everyone who disagrees with you a conspiracy theorist?  In essence, any opinion, any at all, which counters yours is automatically a conspiracy theory?  I hope you understand that I see right through that tactic.

Why don't you counter, in an intellectual, rational fashion, the other article I posted?  Or perhaps counter what's in the video I presented?  Or is it easier to use bully-boy schoolyard tactics of name calling?

Sen. Ron Johnson's panel provides a great deal of expert data and findings, and I hope DeSantis works with him.  Is there anything presented there that you disagree with, and over which we can have a rational debate?  Or aren't those allowed in your world?

Post a link that is verifiable and shows what you believe as true is true? You can't as your links are from known conspiracy sites....

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, Tug said:

No sir they knowingly cost lives and further seed this virus in a quest for power it’s in my opinion a major crime and I wish people like this would be imprisoned for knowingly spreading this life costing bs furthermore no one has the right to spread disease all stop the facts speak for themselves what they are doing is pandering for votes it’s bunk and criminal in my opinion 

Sure. And it's definitely not a way of attacking Trump indirectly. After all, until he got booed a few times, Trump was not at all reluctant to claim credit for development of the vaccine.

Ron DeSantis outflanks Trump on the right with his call for Covid vaccine probe
One Trump adviser said Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis' call for the investigation is a "shot across the bow" with 2024 implications.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/ron-desantis-outflanks-trump-call-covid-vaccine-probe-rcna61554

 

DeSantis reverses himself on coronavirus vaccines, moves to right of Trump
In a potential wedge issue for the 2024 primary, DeSantis is attacking the life-saving covid shots he once praised and promoted

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/17/desantis-vaccine-reversal/

 

[rattlesnake]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:54 AM, Phoenix Rising said:

There's no point. The anti-vaxxers we interact with here are impervious to facts and are so firmly and deeply lodged in the rabbit hole there's no way back for them. Take the clear and obvious correlation between vaccination rates and death rates. A moderately intelligent 5 year old would come to the obvious conclusion presented with the data from the CDC, but not these guys. Quite fascinating to watch them, really.

I can assure you the fascination is mutual.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I can assure you the fascination is mutual.

Would you care to explain why China has such a problem with hospitalisations when the virus is allegedly "just a cold" when the only difference between that country and others is a lack of an effective vaccine?

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Sure. And it's definitely not a way of attacking Trump indirectly. After all, until he got booed a few times, Trump was not at all reluctant to claim credit for development of the vaccine.

Ron DeSantis outflanks Trump on the right with his call for Covid vaccine probe
One Trump adviser said Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis' call for the investigation is a "shot across the bow" with 2024 implications.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/ron-desantis-outflanks-trump-call-covid-vaccine-probe-rcna61554

 

DeSantis reverses himself on coronavirus vaccines, moves to right of Trump
In a potential wedge issue for the 2024 primary, DeSantis is attacking the life-saving covid shots he once praised and promoted

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/17/desantis-vaccine-reversal/

 

Thank you for posting a great article that clearly demonstrates this is nothing but political posturing, summed up quite eloquently by '“We know he’s not really anti-vax, he’s on the record, but now he’s taking this position for really blatant political purposes, it appears, and it’s really undermining to health care professionals,” said David Pate, a retired health systems executive and lifelong Republican who has advised Idaho Gov. Brad Little (R). 

 

You would think it quite incredible that life and death situations can be quite so easily politicised in America but when you read the comments of people like Tippaporn, you understand there is still a huge base of 'sceptics' (primarily GOP) who are just salavating at any attempt to validate the nonsense they have been sprouting for the last 2 years. But it does also show how any candidate looking to take over the Republican party has to cater to the 'out there' base that Trump has such a strangle-hold of.

 

This is going to be an interesting race to the bottom for the GOP leadership but a sad state of affairs that it has to get to this.     

[NativeBob]

Quite ironic how that hungarian woman went with mRNA, helluva billions for "entrepreneurs" and... Where's she today?

Who in clear mind would endorse mRNA vaccine? Lunacy at large

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, NativeBob said:

Quite ironic how that hungarian woman went with mRNA, helluva billions for "entrepreneurs" and... Where's she today?

Who in clear mind would endorse mRNA vaccine? Lunacy at large

who? what? on topic? link?

Edited December 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[Phoenix Rising]

9 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Quite ironic how that hungarian woman went with mRNA, helluva billions for "entrepreneurs" and... Where's she today?

Who in clear mind would endorse mRNA vaccine? Lunacy at large

Huh???

 

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Quite ironic how that hungarian woman went with mRNA, helluva billions for "entrepreneurs" and... Where's she today?

Who in clear mind would endorse mRNA vaccine? Lunacy at large

How about all the "entrepreneurs" from Big pharma whose vaccines failed?

As for Katalin Karako, whose gender and nationality are apparently of concern to you, she has enjoyed an extremely distinguished scientific career.

Edited December 29, 2022 by placeholder

[Rimmer]

Off topic and replies removed

[Doctor Tom]

Oh dear, one more Republican <deleted>.  Will the steady stream of political no hopers and intellectually challenged candidates for office ever stop, on both sides?  

[Scott]

Since there is no mandate to be vaccinated and since their are options available other than the mRNA vaccines, I don't know exactly what this investigation will do other than create more confusion.

 

Most people know that vaccines work by introducing either actual genetic material from the virus itself or some combination of molecules close enough to the actual virus to stimulate an immune response.  

 

Most of the symptoms we experience are caused by our immune system priming itself to fight a specific infection.  A virus would prefer to enter the body unnoticed and gain a foothold without ever alerting the immune system.  The HIV virus does a good job of bypassing an immune response and that is part of why it is so deadly and dangerous.

 

As far as heart problems, it should be noted that heart issues were more common after a Covid infection, compared with cardiac issues after vaccination.  The heart and the pericardium are replete with the ACE 2 receptors which are the primary target of the virus.  

 

The Food and Drug Administration has required that the drugmakers conduct studies assessing the potential long-term impacts of myocarditis, as part of its approval of the mRNA Covid vaccines in the U.S. Early findings from the research could be published as early as next year.

 

What we do know is that myocarditis is more prevalent in people who get Covid and are unvaccinated than occurs with those who are vaccinated.  

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-research-long-term-effects-rcna55666