Anyone Used "Lawyers For Expats"?

[gc2023]

My wife (non-Thai) just retired and she wants to "buy" a property in Thailand to retire to (most likely Chiang Mai area). She doesn't want a condo, she wants a house with land. So I am trying to figure out how to do this while trying to protect myself as much as possible.

 

I am wondering - anyone talked to "Lawyers For Expats" (https://www.lawyersforexpatsthailand.com/)? What is your opinion of them?

 

I ask because I have talked to several real estate lawyers now. Pretty much everyone pushes creating the company route. I am not comfortable with that, especially since from my understanding the use of nominees is kind of sketchy legally and given our limited ties to Thailand currently we would likely be relying on nominees provided by the lawyer (one said they would provide a list of random names and we would choose 3 from that).

 

So I found a lawyer that would do it what I understand is the "legal way" - one American Thai youtube lawyer that creates video after video warning of the dangers of creating companies with nominees. Pretty much the introductory call was mostly about showing us why leasing is the right way to go. But I am not sure I liked the attitude and if felt a bit weird about his ideas about holding the title (he personally could hold the title and we would have to pay land taxes upfront to him for 30 years).

 

Obviously I needed another opinion I found another one called "lawyers for expats". He talked a good game and it felt like he was sharing more information about the process than any other lawyer that came before. He seemed to suggest you could design the sales contract and a "memorandum of understanding" in such a way for the lease that could give you more freedom with transferring the property etc. This all sounded good and was giving me more confidence in the process.

Because I hadn't really explored these same questions with the American Thai youtube lawyer, I went back and got specific about asking what additional clauses we could put in the lease. He pretty much said that I am seeing this all wrong - what the other lawyer told me was all nonsense and any of these provisions aren't worth the paper they are printed on (like the 30+30+30 lease). But it also felt like if I went with him he would do the absolute minimum.

As part of my search for someone to trust, I did try <deleted> They may be a good legal firm but the people they provided to talk to us had limited English skills, didn't seem very knowledgeable and still talked about creating a company which seemed no better than others we had talked to (and they don't have any associated accounting firm to help with the yearly paperwork).

 

I am getting lost in all the contradictory information here. I like the guy from "lawyers for expats" the best...but I don't know if his story was just too good.

 

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Any other recommendations for lawyers to talk to? Or am I just overthinking this, especially if I am not looking to create a company?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rimmer
Lawyer name removed

[Peterw42]

leasehold isn't ownership, its long term rental.

Its not the "Legal way" to own a property, pure and simple its renting a property long term.

To all intent and purpose, it may provide you with a level of something that resembles ownership, but one day the lease will end.

You may not be interested in company ownership, but a situation where a lawyer owns the property and you rent from him sounds ultimately worse.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Peterw42

[MRToMRT]

28 minutes ago, gc2023 said:

Pretty much the introductory call was mostly about showing us why leasing is the right way to go. But I am not sure I liked the attitude and if felt a bit weird about his ideas about holding the title (he personally could hold the title and we would have to pay land taxes upfront to him for 30 years).

Ouch, so you pay for the property and put it in his name (i.e he is the legal buyer)?!$!?

Hopefully you will get some 1st hand recommendations, but be wary as Thailand is full of scammers both Thai and expat. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by MRToMRT

[KhunLA]

You're original reservations ARE correct.  YOU CAN'T OWN LAND.

 

Condo is the only thing you & wife can own.  Simply accept that fact, and go from there.  Keep in mind 'corruption rules', and can work for you OR against you.

 

If somebody wants what you illegally, technically, have, they will take it, legally.

 

Your choice, but do have a PLAN B when going down that road.  Invest only what you can afford to lose.

 

When someone offers you what you know they can't legally offer you ... that's pause to think real hard about moving forward.  UP2U

Edited January 13, 2023 by KhunLA

[BukSeedaLao71]

Hi there,

 

I am not sure if I am the best person to answer your question but I have "bought" property in Thailand before. My wife was Thai and I did the 30 year lease agreement. She owned the house and land as it has to be in her name; foreigners cannot own land or homes in Thailand. The lease agreement is solid in so far as she cannot sell the house because it has been leased to me for 30 years but in turn I cannot sell the house either. Also if I wanted to kick her out I could because for all intents and purposes I have paid her 30 years rent in advance. That being said, many arguments get settled out of court sometimes with "plomo" in extreme circumstances. Would I want to give a lawyer ownership to my property? No way, but thats just me. If you go the company route I do believe there is a way (but I am really not 100% sure because I have never done it) that you can give yourself the majority of voting shares and/or have a caveat that no directors can convene a board meeting to make a decision without you present and that your signature on a document for perhaps sale or rental or mortgaging of the property is required so technically nothing can be done behind your back. However, signatures do get forged in kahoots with "lawyers". Another potentially risky thing with a company set up is that doing it thru a lawyer with nominees is technically illegal IF all the shares of the money being put into the company are not coming from the nominees bank accounts into the original property sellers account to whom you are acquiring the property. So unless you are prepared to drop the 3 way split of 51% of the value of your property in cash into 3 unknown Thai peoples bank accounts and rely on them to deposit the money in the property sellers account its not really legal. The Thai govt. know this and so do the lawyers and its been going on for decades. However, a number of  years back (I dont remember how long) a Thai politician wanted to rescind all foreign ownership of land and was talking of investigating all Company set-ups and forcing sale if they were found dodgey; which would have amounted to 99% of them I would imagine. Luckily some Farang big hitters with massive multi million dollar investements in Thailand arced up and the Thais were forced to back down. So either way, with my limited knowledge, both alternatives are not satisfactory to me. But thats just my 2c worth. Personally, I own a condo and if I buy land again, which I may do in the future, I will form a company with my son who is not long off 20 years old and has Thai citizenship and deposit the 51% of funds into his bank account first before we purchase. I will just make sure he knows his inheritance is worth more than the property hahaha.

Edited January 13, 2023 by BukSeedaLao71

[donx]

13 hours ago, gc2023 said:

My wife (non-Thai) just retired and she wants to "buy" a property in Thailand to retire to (most likely Chiang Mai area). She doesn't want a condo, she wants a house with land. So I am trying to figure out how to do this while trying to protect myself as much as possible.

Can you clarify something? Are you saying that both you and your wife are non-Thai? If so, then I can understand why most of the lawyers are suggesting having a Thai company own the property.

[gc2023]

Yes, neither my wife or I are Thai.

[gc2023]

13 hours ago, BukSeedaLao71 said:

Another potentially risky thing with a company set up is that doing it thru a lawyer with nominees is technically illegal IF all the shares of the money being put into the company are not coming from the nominees bank accounts into the original property sellers account to whom you are acquiring the property. So unless you are prepared to drop the 3 way split of 51% of the value of your property in cash into 3 unknown Thai peoples bank accounts and rely on them to deposit the money in the property sellers account its not really legal. The Thai govt. know this and so do the lawyers and its been going on for decades. However, a number of  years back (I dont remember how long) a Thai politician wanted to rescind all foreign ownership of land and was talking of investigating all Company set-ups and forcing sale if they were found dodgey; which would have amounted to 99% of them I would imagine. Luckily some Farang big hitters with massive multi million dollar investements in Thailand arced up and the Thais were forced to back down. So either way, with my limited knowledge, both alternatives are not satisfactory to me. But thats just my 2c worth. Personally, I own a condo and if I buy land again, which I may do in the future, I will form a company with my son who is not long off 20 years old and has Thai citizenship and deposit the 51% of funds into his bank account first before we purchase. I will just make sure he knows his inheritance is worth more than the property hahaha.

Thanks very much for your response.

Another thing I was told by at least one lawyer was that when you go to the land office to transfer title a foreigner could not be a shareholder in the company. The company would be started with only the Thai shareholders and my name would be added later...which would be another point where if they decided to screw me I would have zero recourse.

Edited January 13, 2023 by gc2023

[gc2023]

13 hours ago, KhunLA said:

You're original reservations ARE correct.  YOU CAN'T OWN LAND.

 

Condo is the only thing you & wife can own.  Simply accept that fact, and go from there.  Keep in mind 'corruption rules', and can work for you OR against you.

 

If somebody wants what you illegally, technically, have, they will take it, legally.

 

Your choice, but do have a PLAN B when going down that road.  Invest only what you can afford to lose.

 

When someone offers you what you know they can't legally offer you ... that's pause to think real hard about moving forward.  UP2U

Thanks very much for this response.

 

You are right. I am trying to follow the principal "Invest only what we can afford to lose". What we would try to get would be very modest. Trying to find a modest place close enough to shops where a car would be useful but we could live without it (i.e. we could walk to local Thai restaurants & street food/local markets)...as well as being able to have some sort of garden (which means a house rather than condo).

[FriendlyFarang]

Just rent, much easier and less headaches, you can move any time.

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, gc2023 said:

Thanks very much for this response.

 

You are right. I am trying to follow the principal "Invest only what we can afford to lose". What we would try to get would be very modest. Trying to find a modest place close enough to shops where a car would be useful but we could live without it (i.e. we could walk to local Thai restaurants & street food/local markets)...as well as being able to have some sort of garden (which means a house rather than condo).

My house in CM cost 1.8Mbht, 300k up front, monthly repayments over 27 years of 11kbht.

The houses currently rent for 9-10kbht/month.

If I'd rented I'd have 300kbht in my pocket and save 1kbht/month in payments.

 

I see no advantage in owning, renting is cheaper and it's easier to move.

Why do you want to buy?

[jeffriesbkk]

Why on earth do you want to buy land when neither of you are Thai?

Disaster waiting to happen. You cannot legally control a Thai company and thus own land. Thailand is dirt cheap to  rent houses and condos if you know what your doing and you have a good Thai friend as a front. Ive been doing it for 23 years.

[gc2023]

14 hours ago, jeffriesbkk said:

Why on earth do you want to buy land when neither of you are Thai?

Disaster waiting to happen. You cannot legally control a Thai company and thus own land. Thailand is dirt cheap to  rent houses and condos if you know what your doing and you have a good Thai friend as a front. Ive been doing it for 23 years.

My wife is keen on it. She is Burmese...there are millions of Burmese in Thailand so it is almost like home for her (when we are in Thailand we are finding them all the time). Partially it is a reaction to the rapid rise in housing prices in Western countries. Houses we looked at with more space and more land have doubled in price since 2019 (we were in contract for a house then in the US but it fell through). I believe she fears something similar will happen in Thailand (FOMO). She also wants control to be able to customize the place how she likes and grow her own plants in the garden. She also likes to keep pets which I assume will significantly reduce the potential rental pool.

I don't feel we should be in any rush to "buy/lease" but if something does come up I am trying to be prepared as much as possible for it.

Edited January 14, 2023 by gc2023

[couchpotato]

40 minutes ago, gc2023 said:

My wife is keen on it. She is Burmese...there are millions of Burmese in Thailand so it is almost like home for her (when we are in Thailand we are finding them all the time). Partially it is a reaction to the rapid rise in housing prices in Western countries. Houses we looked at with more space and more land have doubled in price since 2019 (we were in contract for a house then in the US but it fell through). I believe she fears something similar will happen in Thailand (FOMO). She also wants control to be able to customize the place how she likes and grow her own plants in the garden. She also likes to keep pets which I assume will significantly reduce the potential rental pool.

I don't feel we should be in any rush to "buy/lease" but if something does come up I am trying to be prepared as much as possible for it.

Millions of Burmese in Thailand...!!!!!!!