Many Pattaya Restaurant Owners Still Suffering from Financial Problems, Hope Chinese Tourists are the Solution

[Leaver]

22 hours ago, newnative said:

Generally, building something nice and new will add value, not lessen it. 

 

Except when there is a lot of "nice and new" being built all around your own "nice and new" then the value of your own place declines. 

 

22 hours ago, newnative said:

I don't know how many condos are on the market here--

 

You said "thousands" did you not? 

 

22 hours ago, newnative said:

Client 1.  Young couple with 1 child.  Looking for a 2 bedroom/2 bath condo in Wong Amat,  Short walk to the beach.  Must be at least 70 sqm.  Project should have covered parking, a pool, and a gym.  Foreign quota a must, budget no more than 7MB.

   Client 2.  Single male, looking for 1 bedroom condo in north Pattaya.  Killer seaview and foreign quota a must, minimum 60 sqm, budget no more than 9MB.

   Client 3.  Single Thai female, looking for 1 bedroom condo in Jomtien.  Must be at least 35 sqm.  For privacy and security must be at least floor 3 or above.  Does not want pool view with noisy swimmers.  Project must be on or close to the baht bus line.  Wants a  project with lots of amenities built within the last 5 years.  Does not want to live in a mega project so only projects with 500 units or less.  Budget no more than 3MB.

 

There's an oversupply for Clients 1, 2 and 3.  Hence, thousands of properties on the market here.

 

If Pattaya has a healthy property market, why are there thousands of properties on the market here? 

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, BigStar said:

I also distinguish where an oversupply, or undersupply, may exist,

 

So, go on the record here on this forum.  Does Pattaya have and oversupply of residential property? Yes, or no?

 

 

[Leaver]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:41 PM, soi3eddie said:

Things have changed forever and may only get worse for a while from now. Chinese are unlikely to be the saviours. 

 

The world is heading into a global recession.

 

The free spending western 2 week millionaires will be thin on the ground for quite a while into the foreseeable future. 

 

Do business owners buy another lease term, or walk away? 

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, newnative said:

61% of the Chinese tourists in 2019 were independent travelers and not in tour groups. 

 

Even IF, and that's a big TAT IF, that percentage was accurate, how many were staying in Chinese AirBnB's, and doing their Thailand trip on the cheap, living out of 7/11's? 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

Except when there is a lot of "nice and new" being built all around your own "nice and new" then the value of your own place declines. 

 

 

You said "thousands" did you not? 

 

 

There's an oversupply for Clients 1, 2 and 3.  Hence, thousands of properties on the market here.

 

If Pattaya has a healthy property market, why are there thousands of properties on the market here? 

     No, something nice and new going in usually doesn't diminish your property.  Why would it?  Take a look at Hipflat's price per sqm for The Base.  The Edge--nice and new--went in right next door.  The Base's price per sqm is going up, not down.   Same for the Markland, an older condo project near Terminal 21.  At one point it was down around 60,000 baht a sqm.  All the new development nearby has carried it along and it's now at around 80,000 baht a sqm.  Just two examples.   Perhaps you're still on that track of yours that had T21 opening 700 stores and you thinking it automatically put 700 other stores out of business, for a net gain of 'zero'.   That's not how business--and property values--work.  

     No, you have said there are 'thousands' of condos for sale, repeating it several times just in this post.  I have said I don't know how many there are--but I have used your 'thousands' when I have given examples of the normal buying and selling of condos experience.   What matters most to me--as a buyer or a seller--is not the total number of condos for sale but the number of condos for sale that match what I am trying to buy or sell.

     Speaking of, with your 'thousands' of condos for sale, what have you found for clients 1, 2, and 3 to buy that meet their area of choice, price, and wants and needs?   How about this.  Just do client 2 for a start, the easiest of the 3.  You have your supposedly 'thousands' of condos to choose from, it should be a piece of cake.   He's the single guy looking for a north Pattaya beach 1 bedroom with a killer seaview, foreign quota, 60 sqm minimum size, 9MB budget.  With your 'oversupply' of your 'thousands' of condos, let's see what you can come up with.   

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Even IF, and that's a big TAT IF, that percentage was accurate, how many were staying in Chinese AirBnB's, and doing their Thailand trip on the cheap, living out of 7/11's? 

     Probably way fewer than what you'd be happy to hear about, with your pessimistic outlook.  Remember, we're talking about over 6 million tourists traveling independently in 2019.

[Leaver]

5 minutes ago, newnative said:

No, something nice and new going in usually doesn't diminish your property.  Why would it?  Take a look at Hipflat's price per sqm for The Base. 

 

The developer couldn't sell all the condo's, hence, a deal with authorities for daily rental to be allowed. 

 

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

No, you have said there are 'thousands' of condos for sale,

 

And so did you, in a previous post.  There really are "thousands" of properties on the market here.  Do you deny that? 

 

7 minutes ago, newnative said:

He's the single guy looking for a north Pattaya beach 1 bedroom with a killer seaview, foreign quota, 60 sqm minimum size, 9MB budget.  With your 'oversupply' of your 'thousands' of condos, let's see what you can come up with.   

 

There's no one stupid enough in the market to be looking for such a property.  That ship sailed years ago, hence, "thousands" of properties on the market here, and more and more going on the market every week. 

[Leaver]

4 minutes ago, newnative said:

Probably way fewer

 

Link, please? 

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

What would be your advice to the restaurant owner in the OP? 

 

She's clearly stating to the media she need the Chinese to frequent her restaurant.  Is she wrong?  Does she need the Chinese, or not? 

      Her restaurant has managed to survive 3 years of covid--she doesn't need any advice from me, a non-restauranteur. 

[Leaver]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

      Her restaurant has managed to survive 3 years of covid--she doesn't need any advice from me, a non-restauranteur. 

 

Her restaurant was forced closed for a lot of covid, just like all other hospitality venues here. 

 

Once again, what would your advice be to her?  You post on here how well the tourism, property, and retail industries are going, yet, here is a cry for help from a restaurant owner on Walking Street.   Are you saying it's fake news? 

 

Can you not throw some of your optimism her way, as she is hemorrhaging money every month? 

[newnative]

7 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Her restaurant was forced closed for a lot of covid, just like all other hospitality venues here. 

 

Once again, what would your advice be to her?  You post on here how well the tourism, property, and retail industries are going, yet, here is a cry for help from a restaurant owner on Walking Street.   Are you saying it's fake news? 

 

Can you not throw some of your optimism her way, as she is hemorrhaging money every month? 

     Asked and answered.  But, here's some 'optimism'.   There were less than 500,000 international tourists in 2021.  2022 brought about 11 million.  20 some million are predicted for 2023.  She should have more customers this year than the previous two years.

[newnative]

7 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Link, please? 

You first.

[newnative]

7 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

The developer couldn't sell all the condo's, hence, a deal with authorities for daily rental to be allowed. 

 

 

And so did you, in a previous post.  There really are "thousands" of properties on the market here.  Do you deny that? 

 

 

There's no one stupid enough in the market to be looking for such a property.  That ship sailed years ago, hence, "thousands" of properties on the market here, and more and more going on the market every week. 

      As always, deflection when you have no answer.  And, in this case, incorrect deflection.  The Base was fully booked long before its completion--I think even before ground was broken.   Of course, booked does not mean sold.  At the project's completion, several hundred units that were booked came back on the market when the buyers could not complete the sale.  Sansiri then sold these units to other buyers.   In any case, your incorrect deflection is totally irrelevant to what I posted, that The Base and Markland have increased in value--with nice and new development going in near them.  

     Your big howler, though, is your claim that there are no buyers looking for seaview condos.  According to you, 'That ship sailed years ago...'.  Seriously?  Nobody is that clueless.  Several weeks ago I sent you on an assignment to check the condo sales at Riviera Wong Amat and then go to Riviera Jomtien and then to Riviera Monaco.   You should have learned something.

   All three of these projects were not built 'years ago' and, with all three, the majority of the units offer a seaview.   If nobody is buying seaview condos, how did these projects get majority sold?  Ditto for Unixx,  Zire, Northpoint. Wong Amat Tower.  Baan Plai Haad.  Centric Sea.  Lumpini Park Beach.  Northshore.  Cetus.  The Cliff.  The Palm.  Amari.  Reflection.  Aeras.  And, any other project you can mention with seaview units.  Talk to any condo sales person and they'll tell you the seaview condos with the best views get booked first.  

    What's the value of a seaview condo?  A 72 sqm condo on floor 7 at Northpoint is listed at 7.5MB.  No seaview.   Same condo, floor 29 with seaview, 10.25MB.   You'll find similar examples at every condo project I listed, and any others offering seaview units and non-seaview units.  Just as an aside, my partner and I have only ever bought seaview units in Pattaya and its worked out nicely.

     So, Client 2 is wisely still looking for a condo in north Pattaya beach, killer seaview, at least 60 sqm, foreign name, and budget of 9MB.  How are you doing finding him something from your 'thousands' of unsold condos for sale?

     I've found him a 68 sqm unit at Northshore.  Foreign quota, nice seaview, floor 26, 7.9MB.  There is also a 64 sqm condo on floor 25 for 8.5MB.  And, another 64 sqm unit on floor 17 for 8.9MB.  Also an 80 sqm unit on floor 20 for 9MB and a 64 sqm on floor 21 for 9MB.  

    Markland has a 1 bedroom 70 sqm lower floor with not really a 'killer seaview" for 4.9MB.  Foreign quota was not mentioned in the listing--would have to be checked.

    Centric Sea does not have 1 bedrooms in the 60 sqm range.  He could buy a 2 bedroom 58 sqm on floor 33 for 6.2MB.  Also one on floor 39 for 6.3MB.  A 68 sqm on floor 28 offers better seaviews than the previous units.  It's 7.9MB.  Ditto for a 60 sqm on floor 28 for 8.2MB.

    So, looks like Northshore or Centric Sea offer Client 2 about the only realistic choices for what he is looking for.   As I said in a previous post, your 'thousands' of condos for sale get whittled down to a handful of choices at this project, a handful at that project, when location, price, and wants and needs are plugged in.  

     It will be the same for Client 1 looking for the 2 bedroom in Wong Amat--there will be a few here, a few there to look at with the various projects, not your 'thousands'.  Client 3, looking for the 1 bedroom in Jomtien, will have the most choices as there are more condo projects in Jomtien than in north Pattaya and Wong Amat--and more of the small 1 bedrooms she is looking for.  But, again, not your 'thousands'.

    

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, newnative said:

But, here's some 'optimism'.

 

We don't want optimism, we want the facts.  You are big on optimism, small on facts. 

 

5 hours ago, newnative said:

She should have more customers this year than the previous two years.

 

What she should have, and the reality, are two different things. 

 

Is this article "fake news?"  Why is she telling the journalist she is going broke, if she is not?  What advice to you have for her so she can stay in business? 

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, newnative said:

You first.

 

This what you said:

 

"Remember, we're talking about over 6 million tourists traveling independently in 2019."

 

Can you post the link where you got this figure from.  I would like to read the article. 

[Leaver]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

Of course, booked does not mean sold.  At the project's completion, several hundred units that were booked came back on the market when the buyers could not complete the sale. 

 

As I said, they didn't sell.

 

3 hours ago, newnative said:

 I've found him a 68 sqm unit at Northshore.  Foreign quota, nice seaview, floor 26, 7.9MB. 

 

Didn't YOU say you DO NOT work in real estate here? 

 

3 hours ago, newnative said:

But, again, not your 'thousands'.

 

As usual, a lot of your post is just real estate waffle talking up the market here.

 

Here's a link to one, only one, of many online real estate agents here.  Then, there are brick and mortar agencies, and classified websites.  Eg. AN, Baht Sold, Facebook etc.

 

There are currently 536 "villa or condo" on the market in Pattaya.  

 

I agree there is some cross advertising, but there are still well over a thousand on the market here, hence the term, "thousands."

 

https://www.siamrealestate.com/search/?location_phase[]=Pattaya&featured=1&as_otype=sale&object=villa-condo&as_bed_min=0&price1=0&price2=0&currency=THB&as_addl_indoor_area=&as_addl_land_area=&as_addl_minimum_yield=&asrh_di=&asrh_do=

 

Once again, how can YOU claim Pattaya has a healthy property market with such a big oversupply of properties on the market, and they keep building more?

 

Supply is bigger than demand here. 

[newnative]

16 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

We don't want optimism, we want the facts.  You are big on optimism, small on facts. 

 

 

What she should have, and the reality, are two different things. 

 

Is this article "fake news?"  Why is she telling the journalist she is going broke, if she is not?  What advice to you have for her so she can stay in business? 

 

15 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

This what you said:

 

"Remember, we're talking about over 6 million tourists traveling independently in 2019."

 

Can you post the link where you got this figure from.  I would like to read the article. 

 

16 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

This what you said:

 

"Remember, we're talking about over 6 million tourists traveling independently in 2019."

 

Can you post the link where you got this figure from.  I would like to read the article. 

   It's from the Office of Statistics.  It's statistics, not an article.  It's been posted several times.  Keep up--or look it up yourself.  61% of 11 million Chinese tourists in 2019 equals 6,700,000.

[newnative]

24 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

We don't want optimism, we want the facts.  You are big on optimism, small on facts. 

 

 

What she should have, and the reality, are two different things. 

 

Is this article "fake news?"  Why is she telling the journalist she is going broke, if she is not?  What advice to you have for her so she can stay in business? 

If you don't want optimism, why did you post this:

Can you not throw some of your optimism her way, as she is hemorrhaging money every month? 

[BigStar]

16 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

So, go on the record here on this forum.  Does Pattaya have and oversupply of residential property? Yes, or no?

 

 

I've already been on the record, which you've inevitable distorted and lied about. As you would about any new answer. So you can go back and correct yourself first. I'm not getting into another time-wasting Leaver Loop.

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, BigStar said:

I've already been on the record, which you've inevitable distorted and lied about. As you would about any new answer. So you can go back and correct yourself first. I'm not getting into another time-wasting Leaver Loop.

 

Fail. 

[newnative]

13 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

As I said, they didn't sell.

 

 

Didn't YOU say you DO NOT work in real estate here? 

 

 

As usual, a lot of your post is just real estate waffle talking up the market here.

 

Here's a link to one, only one, of many online real estate agents here.  Then, there are brick and mortar agencies, and classified websites.  Eg. AN, Baht Sold, Facebook etc.

 

There are currently 536 "villa or condo" on the market in Pattaya.  

 

I agree there is some cross advertising, but there are still well over a thousand on the market here, hence the term, "thousands."

 

https://www.siamrealestate.com/search/?location_phase[]=Pattaya&featured=1&as_otype=sale&object=villa-condo&as_bed_min=0&price1=0&price2=0&currency=THB&as_addl_indoor_area=&as_addl_land_area=&as_addl_minimum_yield=&asrh_di=&asrh_do=

 

Once again, how can YOU claim Pattaya has a healthy property market with such a big oversupply of properties on the market, and they keep building more?

 

Supply is bigger than demand here. 

    Totally wrong regarding The Base.  You seem to have reading comprehension problems.  As I said, the booked units that buyers could not complete the transfer on were put back up for sale and the units were bought by other buyers.   How is that so difficult to comprehend?  It's totally normal and common with all new projects--some buyers, for whatever reason, will not be able to transfer and the units are then sold to other buyers.

    You do not need to be an agent to look up properties for sale.   You managed to do it yourself and, apparently, found 536 villas and condos for sale in Pattaya on a website.  Now, how many of those villas listed for sale would be suitable for a buyer looking for a studio condo?   How many of those studios listed for sale would be suitable for a buyer looking for a 2 bedroom condo?  We haven't even factored in location, price, or wants and needs.  Are you starting to finally get the picture?   

    You are correct that there are many duplicate listings, and also listings that have been sold.  Hipflat has 182 units for sale at Northshore--in a project with only 187 units in total.  Obviously, many duplicates and listings for sold units, including one my partner and I sold last year--it's still listed 7 times.   That's one of the reasons I don't claim to know how many properties are actually for sale.

     I've explained in an earlier post 'why they keep building more'.   Basically, 'they' can sell the units.  Wow, that was simple.  Nobody buys, 'they' don't build 'more'.  Also simple. Time for you to maybe make your rounds of some condo projects and find out the percentage sold--remember that is different than 'booked'.   Feel free to check any of the numerous projects I mentioned in my previous post.    

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post and a reply has been removed.

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, newnative said:

As I said, the booked units that buyers could not complete the transfer on were put back up for sale

 

Buyers pulled out, geez, I wonder why.

 

7 hours ago, newnative said:

You managed to do it yourself and, apparently, found 536 villas and condos for sale in Pattaya on a website. 

 

Yes, and just from only one online agent.  Like I said, an obvious oversupply here.

 

7 hours ago, newnative said:

That's one of the reasons I don't claim to know how many properties are actually for sale.

 

Have a guess then.  Hundreds, or thousands? 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

Buyers pulled out, geez, I wonder why.

 

 

Yes, and just from only one online agent.  Like I said, an obvious oversupply here.

 

 

Have a guess then.  Hundreds, or thousands? 

       As I said, buyers don't go to closing for a variety of reasons--probably the biggest being unable to secure financing.  Original buyers that had to pull out at The Base and did not go to closing were likely all kicking themselves later--prices went up after it opened.  They had a low, pre-construction price that they had to give up. 

     Some sold their contracts to other buyers--my partner and I bought one and we got one of the few top floor condos with a single corridor floor--no condos but just windows on the other side of the hallway.   Original buyers would have been hard-pressed not to make a profit when they sold.  

      You remain obsessed with the total number of properties for sale when that number is not the important one.  As I've said before, I'm only interested in the number of properties for sale that somewhat match what I am looking to either buy or to sell.  Maybe read that twice and let it sink in.  If I am buying, and later selling, a 3 bedroom seaview condo in Wong Amat (which I did), it's totally irrelevant how many studio condos are on the market for sale--that applies to Pattaya and to anywhere else.

    How many properties, in the area I am interested in, meet my price and my wants and needs when I am buying?  Usually, it's just a handful, as my partner and I always have a number of wants and needs.  And, conversely when I am selling, how many other properties for sale in my area come close to matching my property in price, size, view, interior design, amenities, etc. ?  Usually, it's also just a handful.

[Leaver]

12 minutes ago, newnative said:

 As I said, buyers don't go to closing for a variety of reasons--probably the biggest being unable to secure financing. 

 

So they didn't sell.

 

12 minutes ago, newnative said:

Original buyers that had to pull out at The Base and did not go to closing were likely all kicking themselves later-

 

More like thinking themselves lucky as The Base just turned into a 800 room hotel, and no place to live.  Of course, completely illegal, but TiT.  Coming to a condo block near you soon. 

 

15 minutes ago, newnative said:

You remain obsessed with the total number of properties for sale when that number is not the important one. 

 

You remain in denial that the total number of properties for sale here reflects market forces of supply and demand, and with thousands, yes, thousands, of properties on the market here, the oversupply pushes prices down, thus, property ownership does not represent a good investment here.  

 

Sure, you will quote the occasional out of line sale that sold for a decent price to someone with more money than brains, but TOM (time on market) is long here, really long, unless at fire sale prices.  

 

As usual, you try to justify time on market because of the so called "uniqueness" of the property, but it's all real estate agent BS from you.  The majority of buyers are flexible.

 

When I post the same link in the future and the number of condo's for sale here have increased from 536, what will be your reply? 

[spidermike007]

Quite a contrast to what the tourist associations are saying. Who to believe? Real people or corrupt officials with an agenda? 

[kinyara]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Quite a contrast to what the tourist associations are saying. Who to believe? Real people or corrupt officials with an agenda? 

Is she really saying something that contradicts officialdom ?  What she said, " Many of the restaurants yet to recover are seafood restaurants that are dependent on the Chinese ". If you are catering to a market that hasn't been back until now it's hardly surprising you are yet to see a recovery. All the powers that be that I have seen quoted have highlighted the importance of the Chinese market in the overall tourism recovery, hence their glee at China allowing them to travel again.

 

What it does seem to contradict in this lady's case is the view expressed by the likes of Leaver that the Chinese are  just Walking Street gawpers who don't actually patronise businesses on the street, in her case she is confirming they were/are her main customers. She is of course a Thai business owner who her about to arrive Chinese customers will be paying in Thailand with money brought into Thailand, an additional example that goes against the grain of those that are in denial regarding the spending patterns of the overall Chinese market. 

 

 

 

[Leaver]

10 hours ago, kinyara said:

s she really saying something that contradicts officialdom ?  What she said, " Many of the restaurants yet to recover are seafood restaurants that are dependent on the Chinese ". If you are catering to a market that hasn't been back until now it's hardly surprising you are yet to see a recovery.

 

How can this be, if Pattaya is "operating to capacity?" 

 

Someone is not telling the truth. 

 

If the Chinese are not back in full swing, that the thread "Pattaya is operating to capacity" is BS, and if it is BS, the lady restaurant owner is correct and she is not busy.

 

If the thread "Pattaya is operating at capacity" is correct, then why isn't her restaurant busy like before?

 

10 hours ago, kinyara said:

What it does seem to contradict in this lady's case is the view expressed by the likes of Leaver that the Chinese are  just Walking Street gawpers who don't actually patronise businesses on the street, in her case she is confirming they were/are her main customers. She is of course a Thai business owner who her about to arrive Chinese customers will be paying in Thailand with money brought into Thailand, an additional example that goes against the grain of those that are in denial regarding the spending patterns of the overall Chinese market. 

 

It's well know the Chinese tour groups bargain down the prices to rock bottom.  Some baht is better than no baht. 

 

The Chinese also own many businesses here, including properties, boats, buses etc.  In this case, very little of the money makes it to Thailand.

 

I didn't invent the term "zero baht tourism."  If there is / was no truth to it, why was there a big crack down on it years ago, with conviscation of assets etc? 

 

Are you suggesting "zero baht tourism" is fake news, a myth, a lie, never happened and doesn't happen? 

[Leaver]

17 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Quite a contrast to what the tourist associations are saying. Who to believe? Real people or corrupt officials with an agenda? 

 

Exactly. 

 

You have two opposing threads themes.  One saying how Pattaya is at capacity, the other saying my restaurant is far from capacity, and neither are many others. 

 

Perhaps time will reveal the truth, but thinking back to 2019, things were not so great for many businesses here, add to that the Tree Town complex, and more staff than customers can only be sustained for so long. 

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, newnative said:

     Now, you're just being intentionally obtuse.  

Or you are being played old chap!