Germans split as last three nuclear power stations go off grid

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2 minutes ago, transam said:

Making their own decisions, that is what I said.....????

"You seem to be worried about money that Finland has plenty of. I would also suggest that Finland knows exactly what it is doing."

I criticized the project on account of its cost overruns and delays. You reply with the fact that Finland has lots of money. Why did you invoke that fact if not to counter my observation that it ran almost 4 times over budget. As for Finland knowing what it was doing, given that it hired a company that screwed up disastrously, you have evidence to support that? Given that their court case shows they unhappy with their choice?

You've still got nothing.

[Rimmer]

A baiting post has been reported and has now been removed

[JustAnotherHun]

Exploding costs?

So what!

As if they only would explode when NPPs are built.

 

Again some German highlights:

 

Berlin Airport:

Projected costs 2 Billion Euro

Final Costs: 7.08 Billion €

Construction start 2006, expected completion 2011. Completed October 2020.

 

Stuttgart 21 (an underground train station):

First projected in 1994. Construction start 02/2010. Projected completion 12/2019. Expected costs: 2.5 Billion €.

Estimated costs from 2022: 9.55 Billion €. Should be partly completed in 2025.

 

 

 

[placeholder]

36 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Exploding costs?

So what!

As if they only would explode when NPPs are built.

 

Again some German highlights:

 

Berlin Airport:

Projected costs 2 Billion Euro

Final Costs: 7.08 Billion €

Construction start 2006, expected completion 2011. Completed October 2020.

 

Stuttgart 21 (an underground train station):

First projected in 1994. Construction start 02/2010. Projected completion 12/2019. Expected costs: 2.5 Billion €.

Estimated costs from 2022: 9.55 Billion €. Should be partly completed in 2025.

 

 

 

Do they explode when solar plants are built? Or when wind turbine arrays are built?

And nuclear plants are pretty much historically the worst.

 

"The graphic below is from Flyvbjerg’s upcoming book, co-authored with Dan Gardner, How Big Things Get Done: The Surprising Factors That Determine the Fate of Every Project, from Home Renovations to Space Exploration and Everything In Between (strongly recommended for energy developers, institutional investors and policy makers). It’s assembled from the 16,000 projects Flyvbjerg and his team have gathered into their dataset of megaprojects. The black vertical line is the dividing line between projects that typically are delivered on time and budget vs those that typically aren’t, with the extremes showing which projects are best (solar and wind generation construction) and worst (all things nuclear and Olympics)."

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/18/the-nuclear-fallacy-why-small-modular-reactors-cant-compete-with-renewable-energy/#:~:text=“Small modular reactors won't,to decommission%2C and still require

[SpaceKadet]

Just two days after Germany shuts down its remaining 3 reactors, Finland brings online its latest nuclear power plant. At 1,600MWe it is Europe largest, and together with the other two plants will supply 40% of the countries electricity.

Just when surrounding countries push for "renewables" and start discovering the reality, they will also start buying electricity from outside. Produced mostly by.... eh.... nuclear power. 

 

Seems you need to update your figures, placeholder.

[Hanaguma]

That is the tragedy of governing by virtue signal. Germany can tout being non-nuclear, yet still burns coal by the boatload.  And buys nuclear produced energy from other countries.

 

Surplus of energy is the hallmark of a growing and modernizing civilization. The explosion of energy sources in the 20th century dragged untold millions out of poverty. It also liberated women from onerous labor- refrigerators, washing machines, and the like were key components of womens liberation.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

Just two days after Germany shuts down its remaining 3 reactors, Finland brings online its latest nuclear power plant. At 1,600MWe it is Europe largest, and together with the other two plants will supply 40% of the countries electricity.

Just when surrounding countries push for "renewables" and start discovering the reality, they will also start buying electricity from outside. Produced mostly by.... eh.... nuclear power. 

 

Seems you need to update your figures, placeholder.

Update what figures? How does this change the fact that the project was completed 12 years late and almost quadrupled in cost? And if it's such a big success why did the Finnish govt cancel the construction of nuclear power plant #4 after seeing costs skyrocked and delays multiply? How does this justify Finland's slow pace in adopting much cheaper wind power? 

[Hanaguma]

One of the biggest negatives about renewable power, besides storage, is simple land usage.  Depending on the study, it takes 100 times more land to produce wind/solar energy as compared to a nuclear plant.  In crowded Europe, this is a big problem. 

[placeholder]

38 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

That is the tragedy of governing by virtue signal. Germany can tout being non-nuclear, yet still burns coal by the boatload.  And buys nuclear produced energy from other countries.

 

Surplus of energy is the hallmark of a growing and modernizing civilization. The explosion of energy sources in the 20th century dragged untold millions out of poverty. It also liberated women from onerous labor- refrigerators, washing machines, and the like were key components of womens liberation.

I think that the Germans should not have shut down their plants but let them die their unnatural death. As for burning coal by the boatloads, the consumption of coal temporarily increased due to the Ukraine War. But Germany has massively increased its use of wind and solar and has accelerated investment in these resources. 

Wind and solar constituted 37.3% of electric power used in 2022

The share of electricity generated from renewable energies increased in 2022 to reach 48.3% (42.7% in 2021). Wind (onshore and offshore) accounted for a share of 25.9%. Solar PV accounted for 11.4% and biomass for 8.2%. The remaining 2.8% was accounted for by hydropower and other renewables. 

https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/germanys-power-consumption-falls-2022-generation-renewables-rises.html#:~:text=The share of electricity generated,by hydropower and other renewables.

 

And it is also engaged in a massive conservation drive. One thing it is doing in that regard is promoting the use of heat pumps.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/05/germany-launches-rebate-program-for-residential-heat-pumps/

[transam]

1 hour ago, SpaceKadet said:

Just two days after Germany shuts down its remaining 3 reactors, Finland brings online its latest nuclear power plant. At 1,600MWe it is Europe largest, and together with the other two plants will supply 40% of the countries electricity.

Just when surrounding countries push for "renewables" and start discovering the reality, they will also start buying electricity from outside. Produced mostly by.... eh.... nuclear power. 

 

Seems you need to update your figures, placeholder.

...........Indeed...

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

...........Indeed...

One with huge cost overruns and 12 years late. They actually canceled its sister facility and sued the company building the reactor. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

One with huge cost overruns and 12 years late. They actually canceled its sister facility and sued the company building the reactor. 

I suppose no other venture ends up going over budget in your book, eeer, links........

 

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

I suppose no other venture ends up going over budget in your book, eeer, links........

 

Almost 4 times over the original estimation and 12 years late? That's quite an exceptional achievement in a negative way.

Divers have established that the reason the Titanic sunk after hitting that iceberg was faulty riveting.

I guess your exculpation for the builders of the Titanic would be "has no ship ever sunk before?"

Edited April 18, 2023 by placeholder

[transam]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Almost 4 times over the original estimation and 12 years late? That's quite an exceptional achievement in a negative way.

Divers have established that the reason the Titanic sunk after hitting that iceberg was faulty riveting.

I guess your exculpation for the builders of the Titanic would be "has no ship ever sunk before?"

What on earth are you talking about now...............Titanic rivets.........

[placeholder]

Just now, transam said:

What on earth are you talking about now...............Titanic rivets.........

It's called an analogy. 

analogy implies likeness or parallelism in relations rather than in appearance or qualities. pointed out analogies to past wars ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=analogy&oq=analogy&aqs=edge..69i57j0i433i512l4j0i512l2j0i10i512.1961j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

It's called an analogy. 

analogy implies likeness or parallelism in relations rather than in appearance or qualities. pointed out analogies to past wars ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=analogy&oq=analogy&aqs=edge..69i57j0i433i512l4j0i512l2j0i10i512.1961j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Hey, have a break, eh..........................

[xtrnuno41]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

Almost 4 times over the original estimation and 12 years late? That's quite an exceptional achievement in a negative way.

Divers have established that the reason the Titanic sunk after hitting that iceberg was faulty riveting.

I guess your exculpation for the builders of the Titanic would be "has no ship ever sunk before?"

Ah ok, but "we" waste money also very good .

Holland traintrack, estimated 3 billion GUILDERS(that is pro EU in the nineties=1.359.120.377 euro), later on they were still busy and in 2006, it already costed 6 billion EURO 

And then they find out the safety system needed to be replaced, costing ? Probably another billion.

Beside that the (goods transport) line made a loss of several 100 million/YEAR, while it was working without that system. Well done boys.

 

We would have about 80 F-35's, wrong it was HALVED due to developing costs.

Of course we do needed that number, so up it goes.

And that thing is flying with an additional 6-700 hard and software errors.

well done boys

If my car has  just one failure, it is rejected for the annual test.

 

Well i spare you further cases of money wasting by the government, as the list is endless.

But guess there are countries doing better,,, in wasting.

 

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Ah ok, but "we" waste money also very good .

Holland traintrack, estimated 3 billion GUILDERS(that is pro EU in the nineties=1.359.120.377 euro), later on they were still busy and in 2006, it already costed 6 billion EURO 

And then they find out the safety system needed to be replaced, costing ? Probably another billion.

Beside that the (goods transport) line made a loss of several 100 million/YEAR, while it was working without that system. Well done boys.

 

We would have about 80 F-35's, wrong it was HALVED due to developing costs.

Of course we do needed that number, so up it goes.

And that thing is flying with an additional 6-700 hard and software errors.

well done boys

If my car has  just one failure, it is rejected for the annual test.

 

Well i spare you further cases of money wasting by the government, as the list is endless.

But guess there are countries doing better,,, in wasting.

 

Thanks for the deflection. Is that the best you've got? Government wastes money elsewhere so no problem?

[xtrnuno41]

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for the deflection. Is that the best you've got? Government wastes money elsewhere so no problem?

You re welcome. Of course there are better ones, depending on personal view, but will not  expand further.

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

You re welcome. Of course there are better ones, depending on personal view, but will not  expand further.

If by better ones you mean better reasons to build nuclear power plants, you're setting a very low bar. Most reasons couldn't help but be better than the one you offered.

[xtrnuno41]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If by better ones you mean better reasons to build nuclear power plants, you're setting a very low bar. Most reasons couldn't help but be better than the one you offered.

Ok we have communication problem.

Money wasting is another problem and i was referring to that.  

But Im pro nuclear power as we cant do without electricity. There was a time i was against it, but we need it.

Windmills are nice and so solar power, but not efficient. Now and then the blades need to be changed (we dont know what to do with the old ones, already a problem) and so the solar panels.

 

Yes we had quite some problems with nuclear plants, but the other alternatives also have there problems, for instance space. Birds are killed, disrupting eco systems and what happens with the vibration of mills in the sea or dont they produce vibes?

Now everybody is hunting for Lithium and that brings a lot of problems as wel, as there is not much Li on this planeet and it cost a lot of sweet water to win it.

 

But there is another solution and that is cutting back on humans, we are our own problems.

Maybe the baby boom of the fifties and their dying will solve a bit?

Or we have fusion? Can we have meltdown on a fusion reactor, as wel?

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Ok we have communication problem.

Money wasting is another problem and i was referring to that.  

But Im pro nuclear power as we cant do without electricity. There was a time i was against it, but we need it.

Windmills are nice and so solar power, but not efficient. Now and then the blades need to be changed (we dont know what to do with the old ones, already a problem) and so the solar panels.

 

Yes we had quite some problems with nuclear plants, but the other alternatives also have there problems, for instance space. Birds are killed, disrupting eco systems and what happens with the vibration of mills in the sea or dont they produce vibes?

Now everybody is hunting for Lithium and that brings a lot of problems as wel, as there is not much Li on this planeet and it cost a lot of sweet water to win it.

 

But there is another solution and that is cutting back on humans, we are our own problems.

Maybe the baby boom of the fifties and their dying will solve a bit?

Or we have fusion? Can we have meltdown on a fusion reactor, as wel?

I don't know what you mean by wind and solar aren't so efficient. Measured in monetary terms they give the biggest bang for the buck.

The problem has been storage. But like batteries, the decline in price has way outpaced predictions. Not so long ago it was expected that the cost to build a battery wouldn't reach $20 per KWh until 2030 at the earliest. That $20 mark is important because that's when 95% solar and wind become feasible. And that's when you're only counting on batteries to get you there. But it looks like the target has already been reached.

As for birds, in the United States by far the worst threat is cats. That's followed by buildings. Followed by pollution from fossil fuels. Followed by wind turbines.

Possibly when wind turbines are being built, the noise might cause some damage. But so do offshore oil wells and ships. And they sure don't cause the pollution attributable to oil wells and ships.

The problem of recycling wind turbine blades has been solved. The are able to be dissolved and used again.  And recycling PV cells is becoming a profitable business.. And there's actually a shortage of EV batteries available for recycling because they are lasting longer than expected in EV's and once they fall below 80% of capacity they can still be used for storage projects.

Lithium availability is currently not a problem. Prices have fallen drastically. But in the future it could be a problem except that it looks like lithium is just a way station to other batters including aluminium sulfide. Also, mining lithium from sources where high thermal energy exists has been successfully exploited in Germany. If the same proves true for deposits in the Salton Sea in America, that could easily provide huge amounts.  Sodium based batteries are also beginning to compete with lithium

Actually, the problem isn't so much humans as it is wealthy humans who consume a hugely disproportionate share of resources including energy. 

[JustAnotherHun]

11 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Windmills are nice and so solar power, but not efficient. Now and then the blades need to be changed

Correct.

Right now, Germany has 15.000 tons of hazardous waste from shutdown windmills. Until 2025 it will rise to 25.000 tons a year and in the following years up to 60.000 tons (data by Oeko-Institut Darmstadt). These numbers count the waste from rotors only, not the hundreds of thousands tons of concrete on and in the ground.

 

At the moment, Germany builds 1.5 windmills each week. To replace all the dirty coal plants in the comming years, they plan to buid 4-5 each DAY (Olaf Scholz). That is wishful thinking.

 

The German government was asked about the concepts to recycle all the hazardous waste. Answer: "we don't have any".

 

 

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Correct.

Right now, Germany has 15.000 tons of hazardous waste from shutdown windmills. Until 2025 it will rise to 25.000 tons a year and in the following years up to 60.000 tons (data by Oeko-Institut Darmstadt). These numbers count the waste from rotors only, not the hundreds of thousands tons of concrete on and in the ground.

 

At the moment, Germany builds 1.5 windmills each week. To replace all the dirty coal plants in the comming years, they plan to buid 4-5 each DAY (Olaf Scholz). That is wishful thinking.

 

The German government was asked about the concepts to recycle all the hazardous waste. Answer: "we don't have any".

 

 

Good News! I'm sure you will be pleased to learn of this:

 

This Signals a New Era for the Wind Industry’: Vestas Announces Chemical Recycling Method for Turbine Blades

Danish wind turbine maker Vestas has announced that it has developed a chemical mixture that breaks down wind turbine blades and allows them to be recycled. The solution could be used to break down discontinued blades, as well as blades that are already sitting in landfills.

The chemical compound — developed with the help of the Danish Technological Institute, Aarhus University and epoxy maker Olin — breaks down epoxy resin into its raw materials, reported Electrek.

https://www.ecowatch.com/wind-turbine-blades-recycling-vestas.html

[transam]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I don't know what you mean by wind and solar aren't so efficient. Measured in monetary terms they give the biggest bang for the buck.

The problem has been storage. But like batteries, the decline in price has way outpaced predictions. Not so long ago it was expected that the cost to build a battery wouldn't reach $20 per KWh until 2030 at the earliest. That $20 mark is important because that's when 95% solar and wind become feasible. And that's when you're only counting on batteries to get you there. But it looks like the target has already been reached.

As for birds, in the United States by far the worst threat is cats. That's followed by buildings. Followed by pollution from fossil fuels. Followed by wind turbines.

Possibly when wind turbines are being built, the noise might cause some damage. But so do offshore oil wells and ships. And they sure don't cause the pollution attributable to oil wells and ships.

The problem of recycling wind turbine blades has been solved. The are able to be dissolved and used again.  And recycling PV cells is becoming a profitable business.. And there's actually a shortage of EV batteries available for recycling because they are lasting longer than expected in EV's and once they fall below 80% of capacity they can still be used for storage projects.

Lithium availability is currently not a problem. Prices have fallen drastically. But in the future it could be a problem except that it looks like lithium is just a way station to other batters including aluminium sulfide. Also, mining lithium from sources where high thermal energy exists has been successfully exploited in Germany. If the same proves true for deposits in the Salton Sea in America, that could easily provide huge amounts.  Sodium based batteries are also beginning to compete with lithium

Actually, the problem isn't so much humans as it is wealthy humans who consume a hugely disproportionate share of resources including energy. 

Oh, the lefty card, "wealthy humans".......

Thanks for that, opened up your agenda box.....

[n00dle]

On 4/15/2023 at 11:36 AM, transam said:

Stop telling folk they are trolling just because you don't like their opinion..

Good grief man...........

hear hear! far better to quietly report anyone you disagree with

[xtrnuno41]

I don't know what you mean by wind and solar aren't so efficient. Measured in monetary terms they give the biggest bang for the buck.

 

monetary terms. Meaning it pays off to invest, but cant cope with usage.

So more and more have to come.

 

Birds will have more problems then with windmills instead of pollution. It is not sure if there will be an increase by using more windmills, possible.

 

Noise of windmills will increase as there are many more to be built.

There are now already a lot, just saw docu about London Array and building them.

SHELL is about to built 69 of them with blades of 97 meters, extra and all countries keep on planting them.

 

Good to hear Danish company has "solution" but it is only for epoxin based blades, they must not alter the blades then with other materials. But what about  the mixture of chemicals doing it? As we are speaking also about circulair recycling.

With PET you also have a recycling, but company is struggling with selling recycled PET, as it cost just some more then new PET. There we go, choosing recycle or new and which company you put down then. SHELL or recycle company, as SHELL is making PET.

So it will happen the same with Danish company?

 

Al2S3 batteries, ok, but for now one Al company in my country is bankrupt due to high gas prices. There will be more to follow, im sure. And the new battery isnt real yet there. But they are working on better batteries, i know.

 

Still dont know what they are going to do with the CO2, as 3 companies here are subsidised to put CO2 in old gasfields. Each company 3 billion euro. Using CO2 again for making PETROL adding H2 to it.

They need however green H2 which became a "problem", probably who was in charge of the green H2. I think, a reason why SHELL left the country.

So no clue what they are doing, back to petrol again, but then circular?

 

The made H2 which should also be available for industries and house hold. Well thats a lot of windmills again. They really are piling up the windmills in the seas.

 

I still dont understand why no one ever think about the Sahara, lots of space, lots of sun, lots of energy. Maybe also to develop the Sahara to a green place in time.

But ok im not Bill Gates who buys all the farmland in the USA.

 

Not too many people? I disagree. I have seen the docu 10 billion on youtube and agree. There are too many of us.

In my lifetime, it trippelt.

So maybe they work on that too and we are waiting on the next virus. I still have a weird feeling about that.

Edited April 19, 2023 by xtrnuno41
additional txt

[SpaceKadet]

Interesting article from CNBC.

Germany has shut down its last three nuclear power plants, and some climate scientists are aghast

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/germany-shuts-down-last-nuclear-power-plants-some-scientists-aghast.html

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3 hours ago, transam said:

Oh, the lefty card, "wealthy humans".......

Thanks for that, opened up your agenda box.....

Thanks for the Pavlovian response. Someday you will catch me out not being able to back what I allege. Sadly, for you today is not that day. 

 

Richest 1%'s emissions twice that of poorest 50%: analysis

The richest one percent of people are responsible for more than twice as much carbon pollution as the poorest half of the world's population—3.1 billion people—new research showed Monday.

Despite a sharp decrease in carbon emissions due to the pandemic, the world remains on pace to warm several degrees this century, threatening poor and developing nations with the full gamut of natural disasters and displacements.

An analysis led by Oxfam showed that between 1990 and 2015, when annual emissions ballooned 60 percent, that rich nations were responsible for depleting nearly a third of Earth's carbon budget.

https://phys.org/news/2020-09-richest-emissions-poorest-analysis.html

 

[placeholder]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:53 AM, Hanaguma said:

Surplus of energy is the hallmark of a growing and modernizing civilization. The explosion of energy sources in the 20th century dragged untold millions out of poverty. It also liberated women from onerous labor- refrigerators, washing machines, and the like were key components of womens liberation.

You sure about that?

 

 

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.GDP.PUSE.KO.PP?locations=DE

 

And I'm not sure what gave you the strange idea that solar and wind aren't abundant? Maybe you don't get outdoors much?