British TikToker praises Thai gas man’s effort to master the English language

[ketilnm]

5 hours ago, Highlandman said:

I don't waste my time with beggars. I just ignore them like Thais do.

BIG man you are.

[richard_smith237]

9 hours ago, kwilco said:

It doesn't - he just thinks it does.

THere is also the point that he might make more effort beg=fore speaking Thai on a phone and change his phrasing.

most of this is either prejudice or confirmation bias.

 

I have trained in languages for several decades and am aware of how people learn languages - not just Thai people but from all over the world. I have studies how people have acquired language and noted the problems and mistakes they make.

One thing to bear in mind is that something like 90% of language learners over estimate their ability in whatever language they speak and are therefore much more likely to blame others for their own shortcomings.

I thought'd you'd trained in road safety...     you did that too right ?

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree with what you state, but suspect you are jumping in way too quickly with the conformation bias and prejudice argument in much the same way you jump in with the 'its not about poor policing, its about road design and many other facets' argument when there is a discussion about road safety and you accusing many posters of their prejudice in blaming the police after they complain about someone driving drunk the wrong way down a one way street and killing someone...  

 

 

You'd be right, but also wrong...  its still about policing... and in this discussion about communication in different languages in a different race nation there definitely exists an element of "the eyes not believing the ears" ... its just something that happens... I've witnessed it happen to native speakers who don't look stereotypically Thai....   Sometimes something is confirmed because it's so readily confirmable, whether if conforms to our bias or not. 

 

I used to suspect 'it was me' and my Thai was just so rubbish...  it obviously was in earlier years. 

I sometimes found a taxi driver would easily understand me, at other times another taxi driver didn't...  that it was down to my miss pronunciation and the 'adaptability' (intelligence) of the 'listener'....  perhaps down to their exposure of foreigners speaking Thai... 

.. thats easily understandable. 

 

 

BUT... what I have also experienced is the 1000 yard stare... asking a question in Thailand and the other person (Thai) has no idea what I've asked, no idea that I'm even speaking Thai...  

.... sometimes the penny drops and it like flicking an "oh he speaks Thai switch" and the conversation ensues, my question is answered etc...  its like the other party has to first understand that I am speaking Thai before they recognise that I am speaking Thai.... 

 

My Thai is far from good...  but I know when and where my Thai is good enough that when I encounter such an 'its not me, its them' issue and I also know when 'it really is me'.... 

 

No confirmation bias...  no prejudice... just an example of what life brings when communicating in a foreign language different race nation...  

 

Sometimes, "it really is just them".....  you don't like that and want to argue it, but it's a reality. 

At other times, "it really is just us"... and thats also quite understandable but it seems thats the only argument you want to accept. 

 

[scottiejohn]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Last week, a beggar approached me outside 7/11 and wanted to practice her English. She said, 'you you money me'. As I was a teacher here for 25 years, I corrected her bad grammar.  Don't know why, but she wasn't very appreciative. 

 

I hope you miss posted the above in this forum and that it was meant for the "bad taste joke section" where it belongs!

[richard_smith237]

54 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

His Thai is perfect according to an earlier post to which I responded.

"Perfect in whose opinion?" I asked

He has not yet answered!

But another person has responded repeatedly with pompous and insulting posts with have nothing to do with the question I asked!

This whole thread has gone so off topic it should be closed!

 

A bit pompous of you to suggest a discussion is closed because you don't understand the direction it has taken. 

 

I explained my response twice for you...   I can't understand it for you though, you'll need drop the 'I got butt hurt' attitude to open up to understanding that... 

 

You still haven't answered if you can speak Thai which may highlight the degree of understanding you are capable of in this discussion (which has taken evolution from the original topic yet remains pertinent as threads often do as they evolve - we are still discussing speaking foreign languages and the effort it takes to understand then, our level of understanding and that of those we communicate with in the newly learned language).

 

----

Well done to the pump attendant for speaking English and trying...    if they are the only comments its a very short thread. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by richard_smith237

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

A bit pompous of you to suggest a discussion is closed because you don't understand the direction it has taken. 

????

[observer90210]

I use Google Translate on the smartphone and it thus avoids unnecessary arguments ????

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Last week, a beggar approached me outside 7/11 and wanted to practice her English. She said, 'you you money me'. As I was a teacher here for 25 years, I corrected her bad grammar.  Don't know why, but she wasn't very appreciative. 

 

I hope you miss posted the above in this forum and that it was meant for the "bad taste joke section" where it belongs!

I wonder if we need a 'PG for threads and posts...  so that some snowflakes don't get too upset with a harmless attempt at adding a little ebullience. 

[scottiejohn]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

A bit pompous of you to suggest a discussion is closed because you don't understand the direction it has taken. 

I fully understand why I suggested/asked it to be closed!

As you have just said; "the direction it has taken. "  away from the topic!

 

I suggest you go and start a new topic about who has perfect Thai etc and let the petrol pump attendant get the kudos he deserves for his efforts!

 

[scottiejohn]

5 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

I use Google Translate on the smartphone and it thus avoids unnecessary arguments ????

Not with some of the posters on here who will say the Google translation is not as good as their perfect Thai which nobody seems to understand!!

Edited August 18, 2023 by scottiejohn

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

You still haven't answered if you can speak Thai which may highlight the degree of understanding you are capable of on the discussion (which has taken evolution from the original topic yet remain pertinent as threads often do).

I'd like to know this as it obviously is important to what has been said. 

Those who can't speak Thai cannot understand what you have eloquently said. 

Those who have not lived here for many years, don't speak the language and therefore can't understand the culture, don't understand how in tourist areas the local want to strictly separate farang from Thais. They really don't care if your Thai is perfect, you are a farang and they love to keep you in your place.

When you live here for years, in my case most of my life, the racial attitude of many Thais becomes clear. 

As you say, when you live in a tourist place and have dedicated most of your life to fit into a culture, to be 'kept in your place' gets frustrating at times. 

My local 7/11 really takes the biscuit. I was there a month ago using the chip dip service I needed for Bitkub. I had never done this before so asked a couple of staff how it was done. The shop was quiet and they commented that they had never had a farang do this before and also how well I spoke Thai. I went in a couple of days later with my 20 year old daughter and they asked her if I wanted a member! 

I've been 4/5 times since and every time the stare at the till not telling me how much the bill is, which is what they do with foreigners. 

As St Francis said -   'seek rather to understand than to be understood', ah the tribulations of being a farang in Thailand. 

[JeffersLos]

I've had quite a few Thai cashiers look at me blankly with rabbit-in-headlight eyes when I've repeatedly told them what I want in Thai, only for their colleague to shout at them exactly what I said after the second or third time.

 

But with the 6th Thai tone.

 

The you're a complete tool tone. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by JeffersLos

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

I've had quite a few Thai cashiers look at me blankly with rabbit-in-headlight eyes when I've repeatedly told them what I want in Thai, only for their colleague to shout at them exactly what I said after the third time.

 

But with 6th Thai tone.

 

The you're a complete tool tone. 

Exactly....   this is also not uncommon at all... 

 

Someone who trained in languages for several decades will now highlight some form of prejudice, or that your imperfect Thai was understood by one but not the other because it was imperfect and nothing to do with you looking non-Thai and them not simply struggling to reconcile that their eyes are seeing a foreigner but the ears are not hearing foreign speak !!... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bepah umayun]

8 hours ago, Yorkshire Tea said:

Many petrol station workers around Chiang Mai speak a bit of English.  Same in 7-11s.  Never occurred to me to rave about it on social media...

He also had to fill his social media tank.

[jayboy]

8 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

Jesus wept, there are some miserable old gits on this forum

That's true but, to be fair, it was an exceptionally boring story.

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

25 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

A bit pompous of you to suggest a discussion is closed because you don't understand the direction it has taken. 

I fully understand why I suggested/asked it to be closed!

As you have just said; "the direction it has taken. "  away from the topic!

 

I suggest you go and start a new topic about who has perfect Thai etc and let the petrol pump attendant get the kudos he deserves for his efforts!

 

Interesting how you think you decide the how manner in which a thread meanders and evolves is acceptable or not....  pompous perhaps !

 

...  The thread is about speaking a foreign language, it still is - if you want the thread to remain about British tik-tokers complimenting a petrol attendant English language efforts then it becomes quite limited...

 

- Kudos to the pump attendant for learning some English and practicing it. 

- Kudos to all Thai's who are learning or have learnt to speak English or another foreign language. 

- Kudos to all non-Thai's who are learning or have learnt to speak Thai.

 

Is reading and writing too far off topic or, kudos there too ???

 

Are you deserving of any Kudos

in your efforts to learn Thai ??? have you made any effort at all ?

 

 

25 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

27 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

I use Google Translate on the smartphone and it thus avoids unnecessary arguments ????

Not with some of the posters on here who will say the Google translation is not as good as their perfect Thai which nobody seems to understand!!

Thank you...    you have highlighted what little idea you have. 

 

Google translate is excellent at translating signs, menus etc...  and can definitely help, it serves an excellent purpose and definitely a 'better to have than not to have'... its serves as extremely rudimentary translation...  a pretty basic level of Thai is going to get you further and could be complimented with google translate when further vocab is needed, but most definitely speaking basic Thai cannot be replaced.

 

And thats for basic translation now consider humour, idioms, metaphors etc 

 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

It doesn't - he just thinks it does.

THere is also the point that he might make more effort beg=fore speaking Thai on a phone and change his phrasing.

most of this is either prejudice or confirmation bias.

 

I have trained in languages for several decades and am aware of how people learn languages - not just Thai people but from all over the world. I have studies how people have acquired language and noted the problems and mistakes they make.

One thing to bear in mind is that something like 90% of language learners over estimate their ability in whatever language they speak and are therefore much more likely to blame others for their own shortcomings.

Expand  

I thought'd you'd trained in road safety...     you did that too right ?

 

Yes - It's interesting what you are implying and why - presumably because you can't imagine how people can have multiple careers or experience?

You seem to be judging others by your own limitations.

 

nice to see you read my stuff, though.

Edited August 18, 2023 by kwilco

[BangkokReady]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

The number of expats who've said to me

"I don't speak Thai, but I understand what they are saying" - how daft can you get?

It is possible.  If you understand enough words in Thai, even if you aren't sure about the tones, you can guess from the context and the words in the sentence what is meant.  Or you might be able to recognise a specific sentences.  Either way, this can make a word clear that might otherwise be ambiguous.

 

When it comes to speaking, you have to get the tone and pronunciation perfect, otherwise Thais will not understand.  So speaking is quite different from understanding.

 

ESL speakers have the bonus that even if words in English are mispronounced, incorrectly stressed, and - in some cases - in the wrong order, it's still likely that they can be understood.

 

Hence you have "Thinglish", where Thais can speak broken English with a Thai accent, Thai stress and Thai grammar, and still be understood.

[Woof999]

I was feeling a little too chipper for much of today. This thread has sorted me right out.

[richard_smith237]

Just now, kwilco said:

Yes - It's interesting what you are implying and why - presumably because you can't imagine how people can have multiple careers or experience?

You seem to be judging others by your own limitations.

Interesting....   how many multiple decade careers have you had - props to you, particularly if you were successful at them all. 

 

I do agree... I certainly am limited... just the one career so far.

 

You do make a lot of valid points in the road safety and communication discussion, but you mask them when you object and refute singular factors mentioned individually and not explained with an encompassing multifaceted understanding when in reality there perfectly valid opinions that don't require interlinked, complex understanding....    you miss the 'occams razor' principle in such discussions... 

... sometimes 'it just is what it is'... and that is so in this discussion regarding Neeranams initial observation that seems to have been targeted and objected to because his initial statement was somewhat uncomplimentary to the subject of the Op... 

 

... 'it is what it is'....  a perfectly valid observation... sometimes Thai people don't recognise we are speaking Thai and thus don't understand because the 'eyes don't believe the ears'....  With your decades of linguistics, when 'race' is also brought into the mix its an understandable and perhaps recognisable mistake we witness - there's nothing more complex and nothing further to shoe horn into the melee...  the expectation is that we can't speak Thai, so when we do, for some Thai's it simply does not compute... 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

The number of expats who've said to me

"I don't speak Thai, but I understand what they are saying" - how daft can you get?

... don't you understand that the vast majority of people learning a language can understand more of it than they speak ?... Particularly when there are tonal complexities one may not yet have verbally mastered, context, key words and body language... 

 

How daft can you get, indeed, Kwilco !...  haven't you had trained in linguistics for decades ?

 

[kwilco]

41 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

It is possible.  If you understand enough words in Thai, even if you aren't sure about the tones, you can guess from the context and the words in the sentence what is meant.  Or you might be able to recognise a specific sentences.  Either way, this can make a word clear that might otherwise be ambiguous.

 

When it comes to speaking, you have to get the tone and pronunciation perfect, otherwise Thais will not understand.  So speaking is quite different from understanding.

 

ESL speakers have the bonus that even if words in English are mispronounced, incorrectly stressed, and - in some cases - in the wrong order, it's still likely that they can be understood.

 

Hence you have "Thinglish", where Thais can speak broken English with a Thai accent, Thai stress and Thai grammar, and still be understood.

THey are just covering up their own failing - they're the same ones who  usr cynicism to cover up ignorance. If you don't speak Thai you will never learn about Thailand and it's culture because the locals won't be able to communicate with of any level other than f=do you want steamed or fried rice (and I bet they choose fried)

[kwilco]

29 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

  you miss the 'occams razor' principle in such discussions... 

I most certainly don't! I suspect you don't fully understand it yourself. - simplest explanation.

Edited August 18, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

 

32 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

sometimes Thai people don't recognise we are speaking

Most certainly because we don't realise how badly we speak.

The biggest stumbling block is that not i=only is Thai a tonal language but on the other dside English is a stressed language.

Speaker after speaker fails to understand how this works.

If you listen to a Thai speaker speaking English, you often get to a point where you may not understand thm, yet they are actually saying the correct words - the problem is they are stressed incorrectly - the result is you simply can't hear that word - exactly the same happens with foreigners trying to speak Thai - they think they know the words but the succession of incorrect  tones just makes it incomprehensible to a Thai person - especially one who isn't trained to listen to foreigners as they mash up the language.

I hear time and again foreigners saying that they w=should be able to made sense by context etc, but they fail to do likewise with stress.

It is glib "explanations" that need the sting of Occams razor they are simple solutions they are nebulous unsubstantiable concepts with no basis. THey are avoiding the simple explanations or conclusions.

[richard_smith237]

@ Kwilco...   personal observation makes it clear to me that the that the 'eyes not believing the ears' thing is very real... 

 

... not just my personal examples, because, as you point out, my Thai is often flawed, although I believe in such encounters I can recognise so, thus when I identify this issue I am confident I am not the source of of the 'failure to comprehend'.... its could be me but I don't think so.. why... ???

 

.... because, my Thai friends, dual nationals, native Thai speakers etc of international appearance, Wife and her friends of a somewhat non-stereotypical Thai appearance..  When the conversational recipient fails to recognise that conversation is initiated in the their native language the explanation is quite simple...  

 

... the person being spoken when the conversation is initiated is trying so hard to pick out a key 'English' word that they don't recognise the Thai... 

 

Or.. they panic into an 'I don't speak English frenzy' and go into 'cannot cannot mode'... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by richard_smith237

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, Highlandman said:

Why would anyone have a conversation with a gas station attendant? All you're ever going to say is how much you need and the type of fuel.

Because I am not ignorant?

[Uttaradit farang]

Kudos to the lad for learning English. 
most of the kids in the village I live speak good English maybe due to the fact it’s taught to them in schools..  

the older generation only speak a few words, Good morning, Hello, Etc. 

 

can’t understand why this made the news. Most of the younger Generation in Thailand have been heavily influenced by the English language, Movies, Social media.  I know a few who use YouTube to learn English. 

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Uttaradit farang said:

Kudos to the lad for learning English. 
most of the kids in the village I live speak good English maybe due to the fact it’s taught to them in schools..  

the older generation only speak a few words, Good morning, Hello, Etc. 

 

can’t understand why this made the news. Most of the younger Generation in Thailand have been heavily influenced by the English language, Movies, Social media.  I know a few who use YouTube to learn English. 

Why does other useless information get reported as news? ????????

[Uttaradit farang]

2 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Why does other useless information get reported as news? ????????

Maybe should have said by a Tiktoker on his first trip to Thailand. ????

[observer90210]

17 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

 

 

Thank you...    you have highlighted what little idea you have. 

 

Google translate is excellent at translating signs, menus etc...  and can definitely help, it serves an excellent purpose and definitely a 'better to have than not to have'... its serves as extremely rudimentary translation...  a pretty basic level of Thai is going to get you further and could be complimented with google translate when further vocab is needed, but most definitely speaking basic Thai cannot be replaced.

 

And thats for basic translation now consider humour, idioms, metaphors etc 

 

I think that even without Google, people here and there lack elementary sense of humour oridioms, and have a confused vision of any metaphor and untimately lack rudimentary social skills that are to have a minimum of politeness or humility in daily interactions in Thailand.

 

Our western arrogance has no place in Asia, no matter how much we think that we are humourous or shine with intelligence. At the end of the day it just a matter of those who have class and those who do not my dear fellow.

 

 

[observer90210]

22 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

NO!

It was neither clear, wanted or required and is nothing to do with my question!

Please drop it and let the posts get back on topic!

Let it go pal, put the trolling-bloke on ignore as I did. ????