Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[The Cyclist]

11 hours ago, UKresonant said:

I'm horrified by the potential complexity it could become, as all my pensions are taxed in the UK.

 

Why are you horrified by potential ?   That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

My 2 pensions are also taxed in the UK, which is why I do not think they will be taxed again in Thailand.

 

I have stopped 1 pension being remitted to Thailand ( better safe than sorry ) and will continue to remit my Gov pension.

 

I am quite happy to hand the RD a printed  copy of the UK - Thai DTA in addition to a video of MC Hammers ' You cant touch this '

 

And then stand my ground. Something I wouldn't do with my other pension.

 

12 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Would be flip a coin perhaps if the UK tax authorities would issue me a Certificate of Residence or not.  

 

Wouldn't make any difference, if you go over the 180 day tax threshold of Thailand. Depending on what else comes out during 2024. 

 

A simple announcement of ' All pensions  from Countries with a DTA with Thailand are exempt ' Which would come as no surprise if this was announced.

 

The target here isn't pensioners being taxed in their home Countries, it is people with convoluted structures who are using loppholes to avoid tax.

 

[jerrymahoney]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

. Quite why people thought they didn't need to file is anyone's guess!

For 10+ years I received an affidavit from the US Embassy for 65K+ income either at the embassy in Bangkok or on counselor outreach. And for all those years I then received the one-year extension with me physically present in the Immigration office.

 

Neither the US Embassy counselor officials nor any IMM officer in 2 different locations ever suggested there was any Thailand tax obligations related to my stated or proved foreign-sourced income.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

For 10+ years I received an affidavit from the US Embassy for 65K+ income either at the embassy in Bangkok or on counselor outreach. And for all those years I then received the one-year extension with me physically present in the Immigration office.

 

Neither the US Embassy counselor officials nor any IMM officer in 2 different locations ever suggested there was any Thailand tax obligations related to my stated or proved foreign-sourced income.

I can't think of any reason why Immigration would tell visa applicants, they probably didn't even know. Ditto I would guess, US consular officials. BUT, none of that changes the fact that there has always been a requirement, the fact that nobody mentioned it, doesn't make it go away.

 

I'm very certain that most people who reclaimed the tax with held on bank interest, at least had an opportunity to consider the fact they were only filling out part of a tax return and ignoring the bulk of it. That was how I first was told that I needed to file a return and that was years ago, you can't tell me I am the only person in Thailand who was told.

Edited January 4 by Mike Lister

[jayboy]

27 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone with assessible income of 60k per year or more, is obliged to file a tax return. That's what the law says, that's what the law has always said, the fact that the RD may have turned a blind eye to it in some cases in the past, is not a reliable excuse for not filing. Quite why people thought they didn't need to file is anyone's guess! I suppose it's like drunk driving, the police don't seem to care so it must be OK to do it. And TBH, I don't know how anyone can tell whether the number of expats who filed in the past is tiny, nobody knows whether it's the silent majority who are not AN members or what.

 

Don't be so defensive.Nobody is criticizing those who quite unnecessarily filed Thai tax returns when not expected to do so.The fact that you compare not filing a return in the past as akin to drunk driving suggest you may have lost a sense of perspective.

[daveyhkt1]

It seems quite clear that more after people avoiding paying tax and so where a double taxation agreement exists hopefully shouldnt be an issue....

 

TH – Taxation of Foreign-Sourced Income into Thailand - KPMG Global

 

Quote

If the assessable income is subject to tax in the source country, the tax paid in the source country can be credited against the personal income tax liabilities in Thailand per rules prescribed in the applicable double taxation treaties. 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Quite why people thought they didn't need to file is anyone's guess!

 

I would hazard a guess that a lot people thought they didn't have to file a Thai tax return because

 

* They did not work or earn money in Thailand.

 

* In Thailand for years but never a tax resident.

 

* Income remitted was already taxed at source.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I knew nothing about the requirements for filing tax returns until this thread.

 

I dont think anyone with there head screwed on the correct way is going to go to the RD and say ' Hey Mr, please advise me how to throw money at you '

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Don't be so defensive.Nobody is criticizing those who quite unnecessarily filed Thai tax returns when not expected to do so.The fact that you compare not filing a return in the past as akin to drunk driving suggest you may have lost a sense of perspective.

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

[jerrymahoney]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't think of any reason why Immigration would tell visa applicants, they probably didn't even know. Ditto I would guess, US consular officials. BUT, none of that changes the fact that there has always been a requirement, the fact that nobody mentioned it, doesn't make it go away.

You asked WHY? That is why it never occurred to me that I was liable for taxes although I completely agree the more than 60K level requiring a filing was always there.,

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would hazard a guess that a lot people thought they didn't have to file a Thai tax return because

 

* They did not work or earn money in Thailand.

 

* In Thailand for years but never a tax resident.

 

* Income remitted was already taxed at source.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I knew nothing about the requirements for filing tax returns until this thread.

 

I dont think anyone with there head screwed on the correct way is going to go to the RD and say ' Hey Mr, please advise me how to throw money at you '

 

 

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held. Did none of those people every read the tax form or understand tax? Did nobody ever ask them at the RD if they had other income? Doubtful I say, extremely doubtful.

[topt]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

Drink driving could suggest potential injury/death to innocents..........so personally I think it is unreasonable.

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held. Did none of those people every read the tax form or understand tax? Did nobody ever ask them at the RD if they had other income? Doubtful I say, extremely doubtful.

Definitely a whiff of holier than thou coming through on both quoted texts.......disappointing 

[jayboy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

 

If I may say so you're just digging yourself in deeper.Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of tax evasion.If you want to give yourself a pat on the back for voluntarily filing tax returns in the past by all means do so.But it's more productive for forum members to understand real and practical requirements going forward - so let's concentrate on that rather than pointless and irrelevant virtue signalling.

 

Incidentally if you got entangled in the Thai tax net in the past there presumably must have been a reason.Was it to claim tax back on deposits in Thai banks? If so do you understand the meaning of "de minimis"?

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held

 

If that it / was the case. And I have no idea if it is true or false.

 

Then surely it would be down to the RD ( Who you would think should know the rules / tax laws ) to educate those 1000's of expats and retirees, who apparently reclaim money every year, by filling at the RD.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Drink driving could suggest potential injury/death to innocents..........so personally I think it is unreasonable.

Definitely a whiff of holier than thou coming through on both quoted texts.......disappointing 

I simply don't feel inclined to join the herd that is complaining about all of this and and believing what nasty plotting/incompetent people the RD is for not having worked out all the details and told all foreigners by now. 

 

Only one small aspect of tax collection has changed, nothing more, income that is imported one year but earned in a prior year, is now taxable. It is not as if the RD has introduced a whole new series of rules and way of calculating all taxes et al that represent a major upheaval, they haven't. Some of you guys are annoyed at me because you haven't followed the rules and I did and now you're having to scramble. As far as you're concerned, that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to, and you were the smart guys because you did the opposite. View it all as you will!

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If that it / was the case. And I have no idea if it is true or false.

 

Then surely it would be down to the RD ( Who you would think should know the rules / tax laws ) to educate those 1000's of expats and retirees, who apparently reclaim money every year, by filling at the RD.

There's always going to be somebody that can be blamed but in a country where English is not the first language and the native population is so reluctant to speak English to foreigners, it should come as no surprise to anyone that the education wasn't as forthcoming as some might have wished.

 

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

If I may say so you're just digging yourself in deeper.Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of tax evasion.If you want to give yourself a pat on the back for voluntarily filing tax returns in the past by all means do so.But it's more productive for forum members to understand real and practical requirements going forward - so let's concentrate on that rather than pointless and irrelevant virtue signalling.

 

Incidentally if you got entangled in the Thai tax net in the past there presumably must have been a reason.Was it to claim tax back on deposits in Thai banks? If so do you understand the meaning of "de minimis"?

I was never tangled in any tax net. At the risk of appearing  holier than thou by some, I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices. Then, god forbid, I read the forms and asked questions, after which I looked on the web at sites such as the RD, Mazars and Sherings. At that point I better understood what the law said and I chose to abide by it, bad person that I am! Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm so I felt tax in my adopted country might be important!!!

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's always going to be somebody that can be blamed

 

Can you get rid of the blame game ? I don't happen to be blaming anyone.

 

It was what it was / is for years, and now it might be changing, time will tell.

 

You are the person who repeatedly posts links about how few Thais file and pay tax. Why would any sane expat or retiree ( Unless they were working and earning money in Thailand, or claiming a refund on withholding taxes  ) file a Thai tax return, when Thailand cannot sort itself out with its own people ?

 

Nothing would be changing, if Thailand didn't join CRS.

 

This is not Thailands doing, this is OECD led through joining the CRS.

Edited January 4 by The Cyclist

[jayboy]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices

 

You must have had astonishingly high levels of savings to make the claiming of interest worth the while, since interest rates offered by Thai banks have been abysmal for years.

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to,

 

You're too hard on yourself.You didn't do anything wrong (apart from the pointless virtue signalling.)

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Can you get rid of the blame game ? I don't happen to be blaming anyone.

 

It was what it was / is for years, and now it might be changing, time will tell.

 

You are the person who repeatedly posts links about how few Thais file and pay tax. Why would any sane expat or retiree ( Unless they were working and earning money in Thailand, or claiming a refund on withholding taxes  ) file a Thai tax return, when Thailand cannot sort itself out with its own people ?

 

Nothing would be changing, if Thailand didn't join CRS.

 

This is not Thailands doing, this is OECD led through joining the CRS.

I'm not going to debate this matter with you cyclist because you are plain and simple argumentative on almost every topic you engage in. Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion. Likewise, me filing a COMPLETE tax return because I had to under law, in order to obtain a refund of tax with held, was my decision that you have no place to question. And if you wish to blame the OECD and CRS for all of this, well, you did say to drop the blame game!

[OzzBlizz]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I was never tangled in any tax net. At the risk of appearing  holier than thou by some, I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices. Then, god forbid, I read the forms and asked questions, after which I looked on the web at sites such as the RD, Mazars and Sherings. At that point I better understood what the law said and I chose to abide by it, bad person that I am! Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm so I felt tax in my adopted country might be important!!!

522 post in 197 pages = 3 post per page, and I still haven't seen anything of relevance from you. 

[topt]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I simply don't feel inclined to join the herd that is complaining about all of this and and believing what nasty plotting/incompetent people the RD is for not having worked out all the details and told all foreigners by now. 

 

Only one small aspect of tax collection has changed, nothing more, income that is imported one year but earned in a prior year, is now taxable. It is not as if the RD has introduced a whole new series of rules and way of calculating all taxes et al that represent a major upheaval, they haven't. Some of you guys are annoyed at me because you haven't followed the rules and I did and now you're having to scramble. As far as you're concerned, that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to, and you were the smart guys because you did the opposite. View it all as you will!

Not disagreeing with anything you say here except the "you guys" which since you have replied to me includes me.

Please show me where I have suggested you are an "idiot"?

 

I thought my post was clear in that I was criticising firstly a comparison you used and secondly the way you came across.........Apologies if that didn't come across clear enough but since @jayboy has been essentially signalling the same I am surprised. 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, jayboy said:

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

Cough Cough. Tax evasion is illegal 

 

Tax avoidance is a whole different ball game.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Cough Cough. Tax evasion is illegal 

 

Tax avoidance is a whole different ball game.

Yes, well, when you complete just one part of the tax return to refund tax with held and then purposely mit to declare other income, that's tax evasion and also a fraudulent tax return. 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not going to debate this matter with you cyclist because you are plain and simple argumentative on almost every topic you engage in. Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion. Likewise, me filing a COMPLETE tax return because I had to under law, in order to obtain a refund of tax with held, was my decision that you have no place to question. And if you wish to blame the OECD and CRS for all of this, well, you did say to drop the blame game!

 

Mike start taking your meds. The above is one of the biggest loads of tosh I have seen you post on this thread.

 

1. I am not questioning your decision to file a tax return. I couldn't care less what you do, or anyone else for that matter.

 

2. I am not blaming the CRS or the OECD. I am stating that  nothing would be changing from the 01 Jan 2024  if it was not for Thailand joining the CRS, which is OECD led.

 

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion.

 

How odd

 

I thought the whole thread was about paying tax in Thailand. Whether that be locals, expats, or both involved in tax avoidance.

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

You must have had astonishingly high levels of savings to make the claiming of interest worth the while, since interest rates offered by Thai banks have been abysmal for years.

 

I've lived here for over 20 years, at one point I had over 15 mill on time deposits so yes, the tax refund was worth reclaiming.

 

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

As I pointed out to cyclist, yes, I understand that very well, sadly, you appear not to.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, well, when you complete just one part of the tax return to refund tax with held and then purposely mit to declare other income, that's tax evasion and also a fraudulent tax return. 

 

Thought you worked for 1 of the big 4 ?
 

The above would not be tax evasion if tax had already been paid at source.

[Mike Lister]

Ok look, some of you guys must be bored or lonely and I'm sorry for that but this exchange is going nowhere and serves zero useful purpose, now we've got poster's joining in just to attack when they don't even understand the basics of what's being discussed!

 

So, have at it, but without me.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Thought you worked for 1 of the big 4 ?
 

The above would not be tax evasion if tax had already been paid at source.

"if".....back onto my ignore list cyclist, save your energy, you're just far too argumentative on things that are not useful of constructive.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

"if".....back onto my ignore list cyclist, save your energy, you're just far too argumentative on things that are not useful of constructive.

 

So it wouldn't be tax evasion then. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So it wouldn't be tax evasion then. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

 

If you are paying the appropriate tax on income - It can never be classed as tax evasion.

 

Is that why the Big 4 keep getting skelped with massive fines. They dont know the difference between ' Avoidance ' and ' Evasion '

 

That comes under those pesky basics you keep talking about.