7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Interested in that or not?

This topic generally covers persons who are tax residents of 180+ days per year in Thailand. There are only a limited number of ways that one can spend that much time in Thailand and dealing with Immigration is one of them.

 

And other than via the IMM folks, how would RD folks ever even know who is a 180+ day tax resident in Thailand?

5 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

This topic generally covers persons who are tax residents of 180+ days per year in Thailand. There are only a limited number of ways that one can spend that much time in Thailand and dealing with Immigration is one of them.

So what do you suggest?

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

So what do you suggest?

That as per above Immigration status is not irrelevant.

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

That as per above Immigration status is not irrelevant.

I'm still not clear where you're coming from. 

 

The subject being discussed here is about us gathering information about Thai tax for people to be able to use. If somebody is not tax resident, none of this subject applies and taxation is not relevant to them. If they are here for more than 180 days, it is hence immi. status is relevant in that respect. If all those things are true and correct, we need to be setting out the rules that apply to legally resident foreigners, not ways to circumvent those rules by using bad agents. Do you agree with that?

Here's a post I did a while ago that the mods pinned, I'm looking to simplify it and expand on it, in case anyone is unclear:

 

 

So it is reasonably established what is RD Thailand assessable income for PIT. 

 (personal income tax)

 

And it is reasonably established what is RD Thailand non-assessable income for Thai RD PIT.

 

The crux it seems to me is that, if ALL your annual foreign-sourced remittances are self-declared non-assessable income, does that mean you are under no obligation via the 60K current revenue reporting base, to report ones income in any manner to RD even though your Thai bank has full records of those deposits?

On 1/3/2024 at 10:43 PM, Mike Lister said:

Likelihood of pensions being taxed is extremely low for Americans because of their tax treaty but high if UK pensions. That said, UK pensioners over age 65 years of age will be allowed a minimum of 500k Baht in deductions and allowances meaning the first 500k baht per year is tax free, thereafter, the remainder will be taxed in bands, starting at 5%.

The issue isn't the amount of tax, it's having to file a Thai tax return. Almost no one here except a handful of ex-pats who are currently working have any clue about how to file, when to file, and most don't even know enough to ask questions.

 

When talking to other ex-pats, do they even know about these new regulations?

8 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

So it is reasonably established what is RD Thailand assessable income for PIT. 

 (personal income tax)

 

And it is reasonably established what is RD Thailand non-assessable income for Thai RD PIT.

 

The crux it seems to me is that, if ALL your annual foreign-sourced remittances are self-declared non-assessable income, does that mean you are under no obligation via the 60K current revenue reporting base, to report ones income in any manner to RD even though your Thai bank has full records of those deposits?

Let me translate into English:

 

if you have income, but don't have to pay anything, do you still have to file?

A post with nothing other than a trolling image contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

4 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Let me translate into English:

 

if you have income, but don't have to pay anything, do you still have to file?

Yes -- and if you say you don't have to pay anything because your money remitted was an inheritance from your Aunt Dolores, does that mean you ever had to HAVE an Aunt Dolores dead or alive?

8 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Let me translate into English:

 

if you have income, but don't have to pay anything, do you still have to file?

 

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

Yes -- and if you say you don't have to pay anything because your money remitted was an inheritance from your Aunt Dolores, does that mean you ever had to HAVE an Aunt Dolores dead or alive?

Way to go guys, you've convinced me that what I had in mind is not actually doable in this type of forum. Only two of the dozen or so core posters who have been involved in the thread have arrived and already they're rehashing the same carp form the past 200 pages, I’m sure when the others wake up and begin to contribute their thoughts, this subject will be headed for 300 or 400 pages! Discuss reasons why something shouldn’t be done rather than actually doing it and discussing the same rubbish over and over again, achieves nothing, it's no different from the past 200 pages.

 

There seems to be a failure to focus, which is why the thread is 200 pages of mostly drivel and pointless exchanges. Posters are being asked to find the roundabout and go stand in the middle of it yet they keep driving around the damned thing endlessly, taking exists from time to time before returning and continuing to make more circuits. It’s as if they keep forgetting what the purpose or mission is.

 

If ever you run out of fuel, let me know and we can pick this up again, maybe.

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Way to go guys, you've convinced me that what I had in mind is not actually doable in this type of forum.

Maybe you should apply to be a mod.

 

And I don't run out of fuel because my posts -- excepting quoting others -- would mostly be in the original Twitter 140 character mode.

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Maybe you should apply to be a mod.

I'm expressing my view and making an observation, not demanding or requiring anything. 

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It might be helpful and constructive if we could collectively, put together a list of facts and pieces of information that we can then post for the benefit of others, in a separate NON-DISCUSSION thread. In short, distill the past 200 pages into something useful! I know that many people are still trying to understand the basics on all of this and that lots of people don’t believe it effects them or that anything will happen. These are some of the things that I think will be helpful to others, if you have ideas, feel free to contribute:

 

A copy of the tax tables

A SIMPLE list of deductions and exemptions

Guavamans sample tax return

A SIMPLE list of the rules, that apply to everyone

A list of KNOWN FACTS that are country specific

 

All of the above are available in sherrings and mazars, the problem is, few people want to read them and even fewer understand them.

 

Simplicity and brevity will be important.

 

Thoughts?

     Ok.  Simple and brief.  Spouse and I had dinner the other evening with three Pattaya bank branch managers.  They were aware of the proposed tax change but were just as clueless as all of us.  So, at this point, the banks still seem to be in the dark regarding any banking changes they would be required to do.  They said they would keep us posted.

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm expressing my view and making an observation, not demanding or requiring anything. 

I mostly agree. But early on this topic a lot of the comments were how NOT to have to comply with whatever the new Thai RD regulations will be, if it ever comes to that.

5 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I mostly agree. But early on this topic a lot of the comments were how to NOT to have to comply with whatever the new Thai RD regulations will be, if it ever comes to that.

Whooosh went the point about not being able to focus or produce anything useable from 200 pages of ego promoting narratives rather than anything useable by the majority. And even now, posters are STILL going down that same path, again....it's a loss cause. It reminds me of, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the cause".

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Whooosh went the point about not being able to focus or produce anything useable from 200 pages of ego promoting narratives rather than anything useable by the majority. And even now, posters are STILL going down that same path, again....it's a loss cause. It reminds me of, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the cause".

To me it simple: Until you not only define what is assessable and non-assessable income, but how in fact you establish what is and what is not, all the rest else like the income tax tables and available deductions is moot point.

 

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

To me it simple: Until you not only define what is assessable and non-assessable income, but how in fact you establish what is and what is not, all the rest else like the income tax tables and available deductions is moot point.

 

Why is it necessary to define every type of assessible income from every country before you educate and inform the majority? And a follow on question might be....in the absence of any usable instructions from the RD that define all those things, how many years will that take? 

Here's a description of assessible income in Thailand for any one who needs it:

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html#:~:text=Section 40 of Thailand's Revenue,Pensions%3B and

 

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Here's a description of assessible income in Thailand for any one who needs it:

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html#:~:text=Section 40 of Thailand's Revenue,Pensions%3B and

 

And this is for non-Assessable income:

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html (scroll down)

 

 

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Why is it necessary to define every type of assessible income from every country before you educate and inform the majority? And a follow on question might be....in the absence of any usable instructions from the RD that define all those things, how many years will that take? 

Bump @jerrymahoney

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Why is it necessary to define every type of assessible income from every country before you educate and inform the majority?

 

You don't.

 

Only what Thailand considers ' assessable income ' is pertinent to the thread.

 

The ' Majority ' all come from different Countries and have different income streams, different DTA's, some might not even have DTA's.

 

The only people who can inform and educate is the Thai Gov / Thai RD. Other experts can go into overdive and tout for business once definitive instructions have been issued by the Gov / RD.

 

Everything else is speculation.

 

I asked a question yesterday.

 

Is my Gov pension ( non taxable in Thailand ) considered ' assessable income ' if it is not considered ' assessable income ' Do I need to file a Thai tax return.

 

There is no definitive answer, and others have posted similar questions since.

 

Nothing will be cut and dried until the Gov / RD extract their finger and make further announcements.

I knew it wouldn't be very long.........now we're well on the way to 300 pages, it's assured!

 

I'm off shopping.

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I knew it wouldn't be very long.........now we're well on the way to 300 pages, it's assured!

 

Coming from the  poster with the most comments on the thread and almost double the amount of his nearest challenger.

 

Not sure if the irony or comedy value of this comment is the strongest.

 

 

Here's a link to another thread full of misinformation.  Enjoy!

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316166-exemptions-under-the-new-tax-laws/

 

Personally I am amazed that people are taking this seriously. 

 

People booking flights in advance, planning 6 month holidays in Mexico etc. 

 

To me this sounds like another dumb announcement by some dumb minister that is impossible to enforce. 

 

Worse case scenario a few thousand baht to an agent will get around this,  same as it does with the 800k in the bank. 

 

It's designed to catch the big fish, political opponents. Not Dave from Rotherham and his 800 pound a month pension with 30 quid tax owed.

 

Calm down people. It will disappear like so many stupid policies do.

13 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Coming from the  poster with the most comments on the thread and almost double the amount of his nearest challenger.

 

Not sure if the irony or comedy value of this comment is the strongest.

 

 

Yes, most of them spent correcting other posters nonsense rather than being argumentative over minutiae and jumping in to answer every question asked by anyone, of any one else!

On 1/3/2024 at 8:43 PM, Mike Lister said:

Likelihood of pensions being taxed is extremely low for Americans because of their tax treaty but high if UK pensions. That said, UK pensioners over age 65 years of age will be allowed a minimum of 500k Baht in deductions and allowances meaning the first 500k baht per year is tax free, thereafter, the remainder will be taxed in bands, starting at 5%.

 

It's still double-taxed. The UK government doesn't let us get pensions without taxing us if we are over the personal allowance. My pensions are largely public sector.

On 1/4/2024 at 4:29 AM, Mike Lister said:

You will always be taxed on any income that arises in the UK, for example, rental income, pension, state pension etc. You will also always be taxed on any income that arises in Thailand, bank interest, investment interest, rental income and others. In the case of the UK, tax residency rules are slightly more complex but generally speaking, you are tax resident there, if you remain for more than 183 days per tax year, in which case, you must file as tax resident. But if you remain in the UK for under 183 days per year, OR, the residency rules allow you, you can file as not UK tax resident which means you do not have to declare any income that does not arise in the UK.

 

Moving on to the Thai tax side of things. If you remain in Thailand for under 180 days per year, you are not Thai tax resident and you do not need to file a Thai tax return. But if you remain here for more than 180 days, you must file a return and declare all assessable income that was imported and all income that arose here.

 

As a general rule, it is not possible to be tax resident in the UK and Thailand, in the same tax year, 180 days plus 183 days is 363 days, but days are counted based on where you are at midnight and if you are on a plane, you are not counted on either side. Having said that, The UK rule regarding Ties to the UK, after the first year overseas are complex and I don't intend to go into them in any depth here, other than to say you need to look at them closely if you intend to split your year.

 

Because I'm a Brit, I'll use myself as a real example, I live in Thailand year round so I am tax resident here and here alone. But I have rental property income, investment income and state pension income, all of which arise in the UK. That mean I must file a UK tax return to declare that income although because I am not UK tax resident, my income that arises elsewhere in the world, does not need to be reported on the UK return. The UK allows me 12,750 Pounds per year in a Personal Allowance so much of my UK sourced income falls within that allowance.

 

I also have income that arises in the US which means I must file a US tax return but I do so as a non-resident which means all my other worldwide income is ignored. My income is also below the threshold for filing a return which I do in order to reclaim tax deducted at source only.

 

My Thai tax return reports my US and UK pensions, both of which have been the subject of tax returns hence they are considered to have been taxed and are tax free. But just in case, Thailand allows me deductions and allowances of 500k baht per year that is effectively tax free.

 

I hope those things help

 

But... As you are, I am a full-time resident in Thailand; I have an NHS pension and will be getting the old-age pension soon. UK tax authorities tax me in the UK; obviously, how can Thailand justify taxing me on pension income here?  I think many think they will wake up and smell the coffee soon and have jumped the gun - many will leave if they do not.

REDUX from me:

 

In addition to examples of scenarios in which taxpayers should be exempt from Thai tax on foreign-sourced income, the FAQ also clarifies several points, including:
• “Remittance of income into Thailand” is defined as any action in bringing the income sourced abroad into Thailand, including wiring money from a bank account, transferring money via e-banking, or physically carrying cash into Thailand.

 

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether spending money in Thailand from an offshore bank account, credit card, or debit card could be considered a remittance of income into Thailand.

(my italics)

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/content/download/1175616/59807824/version//file/Technical-update-November-2023.pdf

 

If ATM withdrawals and credit card purchases/advanced cash from foreign based banks are NOT to be considered as remittance, then, for many, it's all over anyway.