Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Klonko]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The currency interest aspect is a red herring. Few people would invest in THB for the interest rate on cash but they would invest for the exchange rate appreciation and/or the security of having sufficient cash on hand to avoid future exchange rate angst, THB is very volatile.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Indeed, if you read what I wrote you'll see we agree.

[Klonko]

23 minutes ago, Hornell said:

"I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so."
Absolutely right!  I have never read so much waffle and rubbish.  Close the thread, Admin!

I beg to disagree. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but it is the only place with a wide discussion of possible issues which may need to be addressed. First I asked my tax lawyer for advice with respect to my personal situation, but the answer was too  generic. Then I asked my tax lawyer very specific questions, which also have been raised in this thread, and got specific answers thereto. Based thereon, I structured a workable setup for my situation.

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, Hornell said:

"I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so."
Absolutely right!  I have never read so much waffle and rubbish.  Close the thread, Admin!

I don't think it should be closed because it does serve a useful purpose for many. The problem is that many people won't be able to distinguish fact from opinion or guesswork unless some posters are more reasonable with their comments. It's OK to take a subjective view and state an opinion on tax related matters, as long as people say that's what it is. But when people start using the thread as a vehicle to blast all things Thai, things that are totally incorrect and inappropriate, that's detrimental to what the thread and other are trying to achieve

[TravelerEastWest]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Paying more VAT than the average Thai is entirely reasonable when your income is 1 million baht a year and theirs is only a fifth of that amount. That doesn't give you special privileges, why would you expect that it does?

 

You say you cannot use the hospitals for SFA like Thais but you can, anyone can. The problem is that you wont because you don't know how and if you did, you still wont use them because they are not westernised and don't meet your standards. I use my local Amphur hospital for care, as do other foreigners around me. The medical standards are high, the quality of care is very high and the cost is extremely low. The problem from your perspective is that you have to jostle with hoards of locals, queue for unacceptably long periods and hardly anyone nearby speaks good English.

 

Then you say you pay more for most things than Thai's because of dual pricing, if you do, you need to get wise! The groceries in TOPS, Lotus's and Big C are not segregated such that foreigners pay one price and Thai's another, theatre tickets cost the same.  Electric, water, and car tax bills are the same plus new clothes are not priced differently. Diesel and petrol costs are the same, hotels rooms cost the same as do meals in restaurants.

 

Finally you say you don't get benefits such as the 10k handout, really, you actually said that! You understand I hope that is because you are not a Thai citizen and you don't pay into the social security system and likely never have yet you appear to want something(s) for nothing. 

 

I can only conclude one of two things about the things you have written. Either, you do not understand anything about the environment here or you have completely unreasonable expectations, which every it is, you do not appear equipped to comment on matters such as taxation of foreigners in Thailand either because of your lack of knowledge or your inability to be reasonable and fair.

 

A good post I agree with 90%...

[The Cyclist]

11 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Well the it seems clear that with previous years income no longer converting to be considered savings in a ring fenced account before sending to Thailand in a later year.

 

Yes, they have closed a loophole that was being exploited.

 

What is not clear. for ius farangs is if Thailand is going to tax foreign income, in our case, UK income, which has already been taxed by HMRC.

 

So for the time being I will continue to have my Government Pension ( taxed in the UK and covered by a DTA ) remitted to Thailand.

 

Until clarity is gained, I have stopped my Private Pension ( Taxed in the UK, not covered by a DTA ) from being remitted to Thailand.

 

That is my bases covered until the powers that be clarify things and drain the muddy water.

[The Cyclist]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so. For example:

 

It's not nagativity on their part, people like you, me and others are far too positive in our outlook 🤣🤣

Edited November 4, 2023 by The Cyclist
additional text

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

hotels rooms cost the same

That's generally not true.

Sometimes, yes.

I once witnessed how a Thai inquired about the price of a room in Phuket, she explicitly asked for the Thai price.  She was surprised when told in this hotel foreigners pay the same as Thais.

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

as do meals in restaurants

In some places,  yes.

Many other places even have a Thai menu and a more expensive English menu

 

Please ask any Thai person, the general consensus is that foreigners pay more for about everything.  Which isn't true, either - but very often it is true.

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so. For example:

 

Paying more VAT than the average Thai is entirely reasonable when your income is 1 million baht a year and theirs is only a fifth of that amount. That doesn't give you special privileges, why would you expect that it does?

 

You say you cannot use the hospitals for SFA like Thais but you can, anyone can. The problem is that you wont because you don't know how and if you did, you still wont use them because they are not westernised and don't meet your standards. I use my local Amphur hospital for care, as do other foreigners around me. The medical standards are high, the quality of care is very high and the cost is extremely low. The problem from your perspective is that you have to jostle with hoards of locals, queue for unacceptably long periods and hardly anyone nearby speaks good English.

 

Then you say you pay more for most things than Thai's because of dual pricing, if you do, you need to get wise! The groceries in TOPS, Lotus's and Big C are not segregated such that foreigners pay one price and Thai's another, theatre tickets cost the same.  Electric, water, and car tax bills are the same plus new clothes are not priced differently. Diesel and petrol costs are the same, hotels rooms cost the same as do meals in restaurants.

 

Finally you say you don't get benefits such as the 10k handout, really, you actually said that! You understand I hope that is because you are not a Thai citizen and you don't pay into the social security system and likely never have yet you appear to want something(s) for nothing. 

 

I can only conclude one of two things about the things you have written. Either, you do not understand anything about the environment here or you have completely unreasonable expectations, which every it is, you do not appear equipped to comment on matters such as taxation of foreigners in Thailand either because of your lack of knowledge or your inability to be reasonable and fair.

 

You are mostly right, but I understand TaG.

There are many things in Thailand I don't like, but overall I like it here.  It's a balance.  The immigration hassle that started some years  ago could shift the balance, but I still like it. If the RD will give me the same treatment as immigration - or even worse - I may reconsider

So, all the things TaG doesn't like about Thailand play part in his decision to stay or to leave.  It's not just the tax.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

52 minutes ago, Lorry said:

That's generally not true.

Sometimes, yes.

I once witnessed how a Thai inquired about the price of a room in Phuket, she explicitly asked for the Thai price.  She was surprised when told in this hotel foreigners pay the same as Thais.

 

47 minutes ago, Lorry said:

In some places,  yes.

Many other places even have a Thai menu and a more expensive English menu

 

Please ask any Thai person, the general consensus is that foreigners pay more for about everything.  Which isn't true, either - but very often it is true.

 

I have never seen evidence of those things, nor have I heard of cases of them from other long standing expats that I know, not in over 25 years here and I wasn't born yesterday. Perhaps in tourist areas and in the case of newbies or clearly guilables, maybe but there again, some people deserve what they get. To try and imply that two tier pricing exists in many or most things here is a the sign of somebody who listens to bar stool stories rather than understands what the realities are of being a foreigner who lives in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

38 minutes ago, Lorry said:

You are mostly right, but I understand TaG.

There are many things in Thailand I don't like, but overall I like it here.  It's a balance.  The immigration hassle that started some years  ago could shift the balance, but I still like it. If the RD will give me the same treatment as immigration - or even worse - I may reconsider

So, all the things TaG doesn't like about Thailand play part in his decision to stay or to leave.  It's not just the tax.

 

 

No, I am entirely right! This thread is about taxation of foreigners in Thailand, it is not about the things we like and don't like it's about tax. Inventing grievances against the foreigner such as not being able to collect the 10k baht that will be paid out is utter nonsense and has no place in a discussion about tax, it's nothing more than an excuse to create make believe grievances. And not being able to use the same hospital system is more utter carp, the reality is that poster doesn't know and doesn't understand, mostly it has nothing to do with a discussion about tax.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

In some places,  yes.

Many other places even have a Thai menu and a more expensive English menu

 

Please ask any Thai person, the general consensus is that foreigners pay more for about everything.  Which isn't true, either - but very often it is true.

I really don't care what the average Thai thinks about who should pay for what and nobody else should either. Who pays for what is down to the people involved, there is no national rule that must be followed.

 

Hotel rooms and air plane seat costs are variable, all over the world, there is a rack rate and then there are discounts, there is no fixed price. All anyone has to do is to look on the web site of a hotel to find out what the costs are, if they can then negotiate additional discounts by saying they want the Thai rate or the handsome person rate or any other reason they can think of, good for them, that's the way the game is played here.

 

[Celsius]

Here it comes....

 

 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Celsius said:

Here it comes....

 

 

The guy has no tax or legal qualifications as far as I can see, he's just another youtuber who's trying to make money so he can live here. TBH the guy comes across as a bit of a pot head but maybe that's just me, at least who could have a shave FFS!

 

He's using the same information that everyone else has so what makes his opinion so important and what makes this video different from another video on YouTube?

 

 

 

 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

No, I am entirely right! This thread is about taxation of foreigners in Thailand, it is not about the things we like and don't like it's about tax. Inventing grievances against the foreigner such as not being able to collect the 10k baht that will be paid out is utter nonsense and has no place in a discussion about tax, it's nothing more than an excuse to create make believe grievances. And not being able to use the same hospital system is more utter carp, the reality is that poster doesn't know and doesn't understand, mostly it has nothing to do with a discussion about tax.

Well I will tell you what I think about farang not getting the 10,000 baht...

 

Right here

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by redwood1

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

He's using the same information that everyone else has so what makes his opinion so important and what makes this video different from another video on YouTube?

 

Absolutely no new information in that video. However it did highlight a point I made a couple of times on the thread.

 

" To close a loophole and is mostly aimed at Thais "

 

 

 

[Puccini]

22 hours ago, UKresonant said:

...(1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated...

 

How does this "...may be..." work out in real life? Do representatives of the UK and Thailand throw dice every year to decide which country gets to tax this type of income for that year?

[Celsius]

37 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The guy has no tax or legal qualifications as far as I can see, he's just another youtuber who's trying to make money so he can live here. TBH the guy comes across as a bit of a pot head but maybe that's just me, at least who could have a shave FFS!

 

He's using the same information that everyone else has so what makes his opinion so important and what makes this video different from another video on YouTube?

 

 

 

 

 

He has been longer in Thailand than you

[Mike Teavee]

44 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The guy has no tax or legal qualifications as far as I can see, he's just another youtuber who's trying to make money so he can live here. TBH the guy comes across as a bit of a pot head but maybe that's just me, at least who could have a shave FFS!

 

He's using the same information that everyone else has so what makes his opinion so important and what makes this video different from another video on YouTube?

I must admit that I didn't know about the updated Q&A Statement https://thelegal.co.th/2023/10/18/qa-statement-issued-by-revenue-department-clarifying-taxation-applied-on-foreign-sourced-income/

 

This added very little information except for the point about income earned in a year when the person was Non-Tax Resident would not be liable for tax whenever it was brought into the country.  This is really good news for me as I plan on selling my house next year & taking the 25% Tax Free lump sum from my Pension in 2026, so as long as I stay no more than 180 days in Thailand during those years, I'm free to bring the proceeds in tax free at any point in the future. 

 

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I have never seen evidence of those things, nor have I heard of cases

Never seen an English menu with higher prices than the Thai menu?

Never seen Thai rates for accommodation?

Sorry, I don't buy that. 

If you have been here so long,  you should even be able to remember that Thai Airways used to have special rates for Thais.

Even the BTS charges foreign retirees more than Thai retirees.

[stat]

17 hours ago, Klonko said:

0.5-1.5% interest forsaken in my home currency over 3-5 years better than 10% tax rate in Thailand.

you  must japanese then. EUR is 3.4% at a reputable brokerage over 10K ... But agreed if something in the area of 20K USD no biggie. Just do a quick calculation and then decide.

Edited November 4, 2023 by stat

[stat]

17 hours ago, Hornell said:

"I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so."
Absolutely right!  I have never read so much waffle and rubbish.  Close the thread, Admin!

Sir why you post in a thread that you want to be closed?

[stat]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

Never seen an English menu with higher prices than the Thai menu?

Never seen Thai rates for accommodation?

Sorry, I don't buy that. 

If you have been here so long,  you should even be able to remember that Thai Airways used to have special rates for Thais.

Even the BTS charges foreign retirees more than Thai retirees.

For Mike Lister:

 

Ok you we can agree peanuts in this case but it stretches throughout the thai economy. Claiming one has never seen dual pricing and living in LOS is weird though.

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

He has been longer in Thailand than you

Which has what to do with my question?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, stat said:

For Mike Lister:

 

Ok you we can agree peanuts in this case but it stretches throughout the thai economy. Claiming one has never seen dual pricing and living in LOS is weird though.

Please show us where I said I had never seen dual pricing in Thailand!

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, Lorry said:

Never seen an English menu with higher prices than the Thai menu?

Never seen Thai rates for accommodation?

Sorry, I don't buy that. 

If you have been here so long,  you should even be able to remember that Thai Airways used to have special rates for Thais.

Even the BTS charges foreign retirees more than Thai retirees.

Just because national parks and some tourist attraction have dual pricing, doesn't mean that dual pricing is widespread, it isn't. I live in the North, not in the midst of some farang ghetto in a tourist hot spot, all prices for everything here and everywhere I travel are the same. Hand on heart no, I've never seen dual priced menus and I've never seen dual priced accommodation, I would refuse to eat or stay in any such place and so should everyone else, if you don't, you deserve to pay more. We travel around Thailand about three times a year, Phuket, Bangkok, Pattaya, Huan Hin, last week we were in Sukhothai and Phitsanulok, We booked our hotels on Agoda, we got the same pricing as everyone else, we ate in restaurants we liked, we paid the same as everyone else. On the weekend we went to the mall to eat, prices were the same. We have a dozen or so restaurants we eat at regularly, they all charge the same prices for all their customers. Perhaps you're just lucky that you've managed to find the 0.5% of restaurants in the country that have dual pricing, well done!  

Edited November 4, 2023 by Mike Lister

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I must admit that I didn't know about the updated Q&A Statement https://thelegal.co.th/2023/10/18/qa-statement-issued-by-revenue-department-clarifying-taxation-applied-on-foreign-sourced-income/

 

This added very little information except for the point about income earned in a year when the person was Non-Tax Resident would not be liable for tax whenever it was brought into the country.  This is really good news for me as I plan on selling my house next year & taking the 25% Tax Free lump sum from my Pension in 2026, so as long as I stay no more than 180 days in Thailand during those years, I'm free to bring the proceeds in tax free at any point in the future. 

 

Surely, if you pay capital gains tax on the sale in your home country, sale proceeds from the house will have been taxed already in your home country?

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, stat said:

For Mike Lister:

 

Ok you we can agree peanuts in this case but it stretches throughout the thai economy. Claiming one has never seen dual pricing and living in LOS is weird though.

The poster said that he paid more for most things because of dual pricing, he didn't say he paid more to get into national parks!

 

BUT, the subject of this thread is NOT dual pricing, so let's not turn it into a discussion about that or any other personal gripe that posters may have about unrelated topics.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Mike Lister

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Surely, if you pay capital gains tax on the sale in your home country, sale proceeds from the house will have been taxed already in your home country?

I hope so, but it's a good example of where I need to have more clarity about how it's going to work before I make concrete plans. 

 

For CGT the DTA says:-

(1) Capital gains from the alienation of immovable property, as defined in paragraph (2) Article 7, may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated. - Which I read as only the UK can tax any CGT made on the sale of the property. 

 

Worth noting that for Rent, the DTA says:-

(1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated.  - Which again suggests any rental income brought over is not-taxable (or is taxable & you get Tax Credits). 

 

I'm thinking there are 3 ways this could go:-

1. They accept CGT has been paid & so nothing to pay in Thailand (That's what I'm hoping for, but my Plan B if that's not the case is to become Non-Tax Residence for either the year I sell the property OR the year I bring the money over).
2. I need to pay the difference between CGT paid in the UK & what it would have been in Thailand & I get Tax Credits for this in the UK which would be of no use to me as I don't pay CGT on any of my other assets (Shares) 
3. They tax me on all of the profit made, again giving me useless Tax Credits.  

 

Key point is the money will only be taxed when it's remitted so I've got some time next year before I sell the house to get clarification, if I don't have this by May (I plan on being out of Thailand for 1.5 - 2 months before end of May anyway) then I'll need to make a decision whether to complete the 6 months outside of Thailand, or park the money until 2026 & bring it over with my 25% Tax Free Pension lump sum when I will be spending 6 months outside of Thailand.