Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[OzzBlizz]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Wait for what, if I understand this correctly these policies are affective Jan 1 2024  , it is now Jan 7th 2024 

Which policies are you speaking of? The ones that were in place before, but ignored for many years until now? Which ones in particular?

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Wait for what,

 

The same as the Tax consultancies are waiting on, the same as tax experts are waiting on, the same as most people on this and other threads are waiting on.

 

Clarity coming from the Thai Gov / RD.

 

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

if I understand this correctly these policies are affective Jan 1 2024  , it is now Jan 7th 2024 

 

All the people named above will probably tell you that the new interpretation of the rules started on the 01 Jan 2024.

 

What none of them are sure of is what exactly the new interpretation covers.

Edited January 7 by The Cyclist

[TheAppletons]

35 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

<SNIP>

 

All the people named above will probably tell you that the new interpretation of the rules started on the 01 Jan 2024.

 

What none of them are sure of is what exactly the new interpretation covers.

 

  One might even say that the new interpretation of the rules was proposed to start on 01 Jan 2024.  

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  One might even say that the new interpretation of the rules was proposed to start on 01 Jan 2024.  

 

Interesting

 

I was late to the party and thought with the ongoing hysterics it was set in stone rather than a mere proposal.

 

Which makes everything even more funny.

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  One might even say that the new interpretation of the rules was proposed to start on 01 Jan 2024.  

 

Sherrings very clearly reports that as an instruction, effective 1 January 2024, not a proposal.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

All the people named above will probably tell you that the new interpretation of the rules started on the 01 Jan 2024.

 

What none of them are sure of is what exactly the new interpretation covers.

Isn't that the problem?

It is actually ridiculous !! There is a law enacted and applicable seven days ago but we will know the details at a future time?  How can I make decisions in the meantime? 

Crazy!! 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, OzzBlizz said:

Which policies are you speaking of? The ones that were in place before, but ignored for many years until now? Which ones in particular?

The provisions that expats would need to pay tax on some remittances. 

Was that always in place? If so why do we have to wait for info? If these policies were in place then there should be no problem to tell us what they are. 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

There is a law enacted and applicable seven days ago but we will know the details at a future time? 

 

Do you know the difference between a new Law and a new interpretation of an existing Law ?
 

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

How can I make decisions in the meantime? 

 

Same as you did any other day, month, year.

[freeworld]

Deleted

 

 

Edited January 7 by freeworld

[jerrymahoney]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The provisions that expats would need to pay tax on some remittances. 

Was that always in place? If so why do we have to wait for info? If these policies were in place then there should be no problem to tell us what they are. 

REDUX

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

REDUX

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

 

Perhaps it has sought opinions from stakeholders and postponed for a couple of years, and just forgot to announce it.

 

Hence the sound of silence.

[Mike Lister]

Yet another page of drivel, just because the same poster makes it so, endlessly driving around the roundabout, looking for the very thing they're driving around. 

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Isn't that the problem?

It is actually ridiculous !! There is a law enacted and applicable seven days ago but we will know the details at a future time?  How can I make decisions in the meantime? 

Crazy!! 

One of the few certain things right now is that, if you spend less than 180 days in any year in Thailand, you will owe nothing as you are not a Thai tax resident.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Sherrings very clearly reports that as an instruction, effective 1 January 2024, not a proposal.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

Yes, the only problem with that is that it seems to override a law which was voted on in parliament - and you can't do that with a memo.

 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

Do you know the difference between a new Law and a new interpretation of an existing Law ?

Don't get snarky with me.

"Interpretations of existing law ( if that's what you like to call it ) should be published before they are implemented. So I can conduct my affairs appropriately. 

 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

One of the few certain things right now is that, if you spend less than 180 days in any year in Thailand, you will owe nothing as you are not a Thai tax resident.

This is crazy we are living under a new law, or a new interpretation of an old law. but we will not be told what that new law, or new interpretation of an old law  until later.What kind of BS is that? 

It is like getting into a football game and are told by the referees that the rules will be "interpreted different than they always were, but we will not tell you how until later.

Would you play under such rules? 

This is beyond crazy. 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Don't get snarky with me.

"Interpretations of existing law ( if that's what you like to call it ) should be published before they are implemented. So I can conduct my affairs appropriately. 

 

 

 

 

Ah...."should be"!

 

I'm not a lawyer and I haven't studied the issue so I can't comment with any certainty. But it does seem to me that the Director of the Revenue can issue operational instructions to his staff which is what he seems to have done. He hasn't changed the law or tried to make a new one, he's merely sought a legal view and offered a new interpretation, which he now wishes to operationalize. We might wish for things to be done in a certain way but should not be surprised when in Thailand that they are not.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Yes, the only problem with that is that it seems to override a law which was voted on in parliament - and you can't do that with a memo.

 

Once again, a new law vs an operational interpretation, I think people are grasping at straws by trying to argue this point.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

So I can conduct my affairs appropriately. 

 

Do you think the Thai Gov / RD gives a 2nd thought to your affairs ?
 

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

should be published before they are implemented.

 

You do reside ( at least sometimes ) in Thailand ?
 

What should  happen, is more often than not, somewhat different here in Thailand.

[ukrules]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Once again, a new law vs an operational interpretation, I think people are grasping at straws by trying to argue this point.

 

Not really, the law still stands.

 

The law if I remember correctly is very specific about this subject, it's not some little oversight or loophole, it was addressed directly. Zero taxation from prior years.

Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

 

To change a law requires a vote in parliament and there hasn't been a vote, not yet anyway.

 

Edited January 7 by ukrules

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

 

Not really, the law still stands.

 

The law if I remember correctly is very specific about this subject, it's not some little oversight or loophole, it was addressed directly. Zero taxation from prior years.

Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

 

To change a law requires a vote in parliament and there hasn't been a vote, not yet anyway.

 

I'm not a lawyer, I suspect you aren't either.

[BenStark]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:43 AM, The Cyclist said:

Thought you worked for 1 of the big 4 ?

Don't be mistaken, he worked as the doorman, and pretend to be a financial expert now

[ukrules]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not a lawyer, I suspect you aren't either.

 

Correct, it's going to be interesting once the lawyers do get hold of this though. However I feel that won't happen until well inside 2025.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, ukrules said:

 

Correct, it's going to be interesting once the lawyers do get hold of this though. However I feel that won't happen until well inside 2025.

 

 

I feel it may snow tomorrow. :)

[ukrules]

In fact having read up on this a little more it does look like it was never an actual 'law' to begin with - just an interpretation / ruling by the RD at the time.

In other words - this 'following year' thing which can be referred to as 'Resolution 2/2528' because that's what made it the rule back in 1985 is just a memo like the one they recently issued reverting it.

 

Edited January 7 by ukrules

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

 

Not really, the law still stands.

 

The law if I remember correctly is very specific about this subject, it's not some little oversight or loophole, it was addressed directly. Zero taxation from prior years.

Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

 

To change a law requires a vote in parliament and there hasn't been a vote, not yet anyway.

 

 

If they are going to vote on something, why not do something more practical, and make it no tax before the prior year  and put an annual limit of say 2 or 3 million baht for remitting "savings" per year, the net size would be bigger, and would be more likely catch just fish they can eat.

 

Having to explain potentially all inward remittance, is complex, and has great potential to deter inward and VAT spend going forward.

 

They are copying other countries style of potentially introducing rules that have a high administrative overhead, and don't yield much of a practical benefit going forward. They just feel like they have done something.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Ah...."should be"!

 

I'm not a lawyer and I haven't studied the issue so I can't comment with any certainty. But it does seem to me that the Director of the Revenue can issue operational instructions to his staff which is what he seems to have done. He hasn't changed the law or tried to make a new one, he's merely sought a legal view and offered a new interpretation, which he now wishes to operationalize. We might wish for things to be done in a certain way but should not be surprised when in Thailand that they are not.

You can not change policy retroactively  and hope that any sane person  will invest in your country. 

And since this policy starts Jan 1st and we don't know what the policy is Jan 7  any policy enounced Jan 8 would be applied retroactively  

That is Ex post facto law and is prohibited by the Thai constitution for that matter the constitution of any civilised country.  

So if the argument is that  there laws were already in the books but were not being enforced and now they will be enforced as someone else said , then it should be a simple matter to tell us what these laws are. 

 

[StayinThailand2much]

6 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Perhaps it has sought opinions from stakeholders and postponed for a couple of years, and just forgot to announce it.

 

Hence the sound of silence

 

Considering, that many expats and long-term visa holders in Thailand are affected, has there been any attempt to consult them (or their embassies)?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Considering, that many expats and long-term visa holders in Thailand are affected, has there been any attempt to consult them (or their embassies)?

Oh well, right there is the prime reason then, the expats weren't consulted first 

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, sirineou said:

This is crazy we are living under a new law, or a new interpretation of an old law. but we will not be told what that new law, or new interpretation of an old law  until later.What kind of BS is that? 

It is like getting into a football game and are told by the referees that the rules will be "interpreted different than they always were, but we will not tell you how until later.

Would you play under such rules? 

This is beyond crazy. 

 

 

The way I see this is,  whatever you were doing last year in respect of bringing income into Thailand that was earned in the same calendar year is exactly the same.  The only difference is that the "Same Calendar Year" now means "Any Calendar Year from 2024 onwards", so 2024 will be exactly the same. 

 

I think the problem for most people (& I certainly include myself in this) is that we don't fully understand the tax rules as they were before this change but have not needed to do so as we weren't bringing in income the same Calendar year it was earned, so I guess that if we did fully understand the rules prior to 1/1/2024, then we'd know exactly what the rules are now & how we'll be impacted going forward. 

 

Simple example, somebody remitting 100K pm from a private pension each month as the pension is paid, if they should have been paying tax on it in 2023 then they should be paying tax on it in 2024, 2025 etc... , if they shouldn't then they won't be paying tax on it in 2024, 2025 etc... The same is true of any income. 

 

So I guess the answer (to me) is that I need to fully understand the current rules as (to the RD) this is just a "Clarification"/"Tweak" to one part of the rules which they've already explained, so there's nothing more to explain. 

 

Now if I have questions on "What is assessable income", "How do DTAs impact my Tax Calculations", "Can I gift my partner money" etc... etc... etc... then nothing has changed in respect of these so I can't really expect the RD to think that they have to explain "any changes" to me. 

Edited January 7 by Mike Teavee