ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[MrMojoRisin]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

Ok, so let's 'understand' them, is that it?

No, it is not.

It is that none of us truly know ourselves.

Everyone is a virtuous hero in their own mind, but when in the eye of the storm, many freeze and many commit acts that they themselves cannot explain when the dust has settled.

How often do we hear of family and acquaintances of convicted murderers refusing to believe that their loved one could truly be guilty of such a crime (e.g. OJ Simpson's kids actually believe he is innocent)

 

[MrMojoRisin]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

There are no Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip.

There are more Palestinians in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip then there ever were.

It's 'genocide' only if you aim to mutilate the term and demean it.

https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/shrinking-palestine

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

There was very clearly a message. If Israel wants to see progress towards peace then they need to start with themselves, stop committing crimes and atrocities and invite international peacekeepers in to enforce a definitive border between two nation states - Israel and Palestine.

Peace requires two parties. Not seeing you going on about what Palestinians should do in order to promote the chances for peace. If you think that the recent Hamas attack is conductive to a breakthrough move on that front, you're delusional.

[MrMojoRisin]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no requirement, other in nonsense posts and schoolyard mentality, that military conflicts will be balanced. This not a boxing match.

 

What you 'doubt' got little to do with reality.

 

No one stopped the Palestinians from going the way of having their own state, developing a proper army and arms industry, or forging strong ties with superpowers.

 

As usual, you seem to think that everything needs to be handed to the Palestinians.

Israel did/does exactly that.

[novacova]

2 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Israel did/does exactly that.

Anyone who states…cycle of violence and convoluting moral equivalence, taking both sides and asking for Israel’s restraint is part of the problem, plain and simple. The nazis tried to hide and cover up their atrocities. Hamas openly celebrates their atrocities and parade their atrocities with joy on the internet. This says volumes of the mitigators and the moral equivalent crowd that are on this thread, support protesters in many countries, and unfortunately some in the US congress who no doubt should be expelled.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

Of course not.  Israel just had a 9/11 event.  They have the hearts and sympathy of most of the world.  I just hope they don't squander it like W did.

 

Indiscriminate killing of toddlers and old folks in Gaza can deplete that goodwill.

 

What's the rush (other than political expediency)?  Hamas isn't escaping anywhere.  They're boxed in.

 

 

Such global sympathy is always short-lived. Give it a few days and the trend would shift, public attention would go to another crisis. That's the nature of things. So inasmuch as global opinion is concerned, I should think delaying is counterproductive. Use the goodwill while it's there, deal with the unavoidable criticism later.

 

Hamas and Hamas leadership has been 'boxed in' for years. If it was that easy to simply pick them out without civilians being hurt, it would probably have been done by now.

 

As for political expediency, there's that, especially on the domestic front. But there's also a regional element - in the ME inaction is often interpreted as weakness. Perceived weakness leads to adversaries being motivated and more confident to attack. Some of what's going on is a message sent.  

 

 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, norfolkandchance said:

He reports anyone who doesn't agree with him.

The Rabbi?!

[MrMojoRisin]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

Peace requires two parties. Not seeing you going on about what Palestinians should do in order to promote the chances for peace. If you think that the recent Hamas attack is conductive to a breakthrough move on that front, you're delusional.

In this case, peace requires three parties as two will always have segments absolutely opposed to any proposal that does not give them 100% of the land.

The third party, a multi-national enforcer, is essential.

Dictate a border and harshly sanction any recalcitrant party until they submit to peace.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Who are you trying to fool? While Israel withdrew from Gaza, they maintained a stringent blockade, tightly controlling entry and exit, regulating the flow of goods, conducting drone strikes on suspected Palestinians riding their cars or motorcycles (Extra judicial killing), patrolling the coastal areas and airspace. Israel killed many fishermen who strayed few meters while making a living at sea.

 

Israel imposed severe limitations on the import of construction materials, hindering Gaza's reconstruction efforts after the damage inflicted. Likewise, Israel kept strict control of the electricity and fuel supply and used it to drive Gaza into unprecedented poverty and despair. Additionally, they exerted pressure on Egypt to enforce similar travel restrictions, preventing Gazans from freely crossing the Rafah border.

 

Since 2007, Israel has conducted multiple military operations, resulting in the destruction of infrastructure and the tragic loss of thousands of innocent lives. Israel insured that Gaza would remain one of the Thus, it is important to avoid portraying Israel as a peaceful nation that peacefully departed from Gaza without ever intervening in local affairs. This narrative does not align with the facts, and it's imperative to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

 

The Gaza Strip was not always blockaded. This came about, gradually, in response to Palestinian attacks and specifically to Hamas actions and agenda. You want to present things out of context, that your choice. Not very constructive, though.

[MrMojoRisin]

4 minutes ago, novacova said:

Anyone who states…cycle of violence and convoluting moral equivalence, taking both sides and asking for Israel’s restraint is part of the problem, plain and simple. The nazis tried to hide and cover up their atrocities. Hamas openly celebrates their atrocities and parade their atrocities with joy on the internet. This says volumes of the mitigators and the moral equivalent crowd that are on this thread, support protesters in many countries, and unfortunately some in the US congress who no doubt should be expelled.

If you think they aren't both morally bankrupt then you my friend are either ignorant or dishonest.

 

Not sure what the relevance of mentioning the nazis is here..., quite nonsensical.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

No, it is not.

It is that none of us truly know ourselves.

Everyone is a virtuous hero in their own mind, but when in the eye of the storm, many freeze and many commit acts that they themselves cannot explain when the dust has settled.

How often do we hear of family and acquaintances of convicted murderers refusing to believe that their loved one could truly be guilty of such a crime (e.g. OJ Simpson's kids actually believe he is innocent)

 

 

That's just another variation of the same: we don't know ourselves, we are not in their place, who are we to judge. More deflections and excuses for barbaric actions.

[norfolkandchance]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Yes, but is this imaginary Rabbi also a THAI CITIZEN? Does he still talk to you after reading your comments on here?

 

20 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

He’s priceless isn’t he ? The phantom Rabbi; just like the confirmed racist who says “I’m not a racist, one of my best friends is black”

Have a look at the Forum Support Desk. ' How about a block feature '

[Danny Australia]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No one stopped the Palestinians from going the way of having their own state, developing a proper army and arms industry, or forging strong ties with superpowers.

 

Really? The Palestinians must be so happy and content with the Israeli inhumane occupation and thus fiercely resisting to have their own independent state. Such lies and misinformation is breathtaking.

 

Israel is working hard day and night to deny Palestinian this very basic right and has renegaded on their signed Oslo peace agreement which was meant to lead to two states solution. Right wing current government of Israel fiercely resist any attempt to establish a Palestinian state and hence their drive to build more settlements on occupied lands and why there are 77 Israeli check points inside the West Bank decapitating Palestinian cities and towns.

 

This explanation is not aimed for you because it's obvious you know the truth but blinded by your Zionist ideology. This is for the benefit of other minded people seeking the truth.   

 

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/shrinking-palestine

The 'shirinking Palestine' - yet another Palestinian propaganda trope.

There was not Palestine under Palestinian rule or anything back in 1918. The areas marked as 'theirs' is meaningless.

The were only a couple of times the Palestinians got semblance of self rule - briefly in the Gaza Strip, under Egypt's authority, and then following the Oslo Accords - as in the Palestinian Authority.

 

 

[MrMojoRisin]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's just another variation of the same: we don't know ourselves, we are not in their place, who are we to judge. More deflections and excuses for barbaric actions.

Oh no, you can most certainly judge them.

The Hamas participants in this attack are clearly amongst the most awful humans to have ever existed.

 

What you can't do with absolute certainly is know what you would do if it were you in their situation.

 

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Israel did/does exactly that.

That is a lie.

Palestinians could have accepted the UN partition plan, It was rejected.

Palestinians could have insisted on self rule in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip when they were controlled by Jordan and Egypt - they did no such thing.

Palestinians could have tried to engage Israel in peace talks for years before the Oslo Accords - didn't happen.

[MrMojoRisin]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

The 'shirinking Palestine' - yet another Palestinian propaganda trope.

There was not Palestine under Palestinian rule or anything back in 1918. The areas marked as 'theirs' is meaningless.

The were only a couple of times the Palestinians got semblance of self rule - briefly in the Gaza Strip, under Egypt's authority, and then following the Oslo Accords - as in the Palestinian Authority.

 

 

Interesting title given to the mandate issued by the League of Nations to the British to administer the region don't you think?

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

In this case, peace requires three parties as two will always have segments absolutely opposed to any proposal that does not give them 100% of the land.

The third party, a multi-national enforcer, is essential.

Dictate a border and harshly sanction any recalcitrant party until they submit to peace.

There is no 'dictate'. Mostly UN interventions occur with both side's agreement. And yet again, you make excuses for the Palestinians, or try to minimize their part. Now it's the World's fault....

[novacova]

6 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

If you think they aren't both morally bankrupt then you my friend are either ignorant or dishonest.

A complete delusion and an attempt to mitigate a flawed position. Israelis don’t target and murder innocent civilians and parade it with celebration and use their own civilians as shields. 

 

10 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Not sure what the relevance of mentioning the nazis is here..., quite nonsensical.

Of course you’re incapable of understanding the relevance, either out of complete willful ignorance or this is your camp that you’re desperately trying to rationalize.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Really? The Palestinians must be so happy and content with the Israeli inhumane occupation and thus fiercely resisting to have their own independent state. Such lies and misinformation is breathtaking.

 

Israel is working hard day and night to deny Palestinian this very basic right and has renegaded on their signed Oslo peace agreement which was meant to lead to two states solution. Right wing current government of Israel fiercely resist any attempt to establish a Palestinian state and hence their drive to build more settlements on occupied lands and why there are 77 Israeli check points inside the West Bank decapitating Palestinian cities and towns.

 

This explanation is not aimed for you because it's obvious you know the truth but blinded by your Zionist ideology. This is for the benefit of other minded people seeking the truth.   

 

What prevented the Palestinians from accepting the partition plan and taking things from there?

 

What prevented the Palestinians, post-1949, from demanding self rule/independence/sovereignty from the occupying Jordan and Egypt?

 

I'm referring to Palestinian choices placing them in their current predicament. Israel played it's part, sure, but it's  hardly nothing to do with how the Palestinian messed their own fate.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Oh no, you can most certainly judge them.

The Hamas participants in this attack are clearly amongst the most awful humans to have ever existed.

 

What you can't do with absolute certainly is know what you would do if it were you in their situation.

 

I never said I had absolute certainty about it. I pointed out that 'walking a mile in their shoes' is a bogus proposition.

Are you quite finished with this specific line of deflection?

[MrMojoRisin]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no 'dictate'. Mostly UN interventions occur with both side's agreement. And yet again, you make excuses for the Palestinians, or try to minimize their part. Now it's the World's fault....

It is absolutely the international community's fault.

Primarily the US is at fault as without the unquestioned backing of US money and military aid Israel would be forced to the negotiating table.

It is a terrible injustice what has been done to the Palestinians by Israel (and the US).

Palestinian terrorist tactics are horrific and inhumane

Both sides have extremists that will not concede an inch.

Until peace is enforced from the outside, the cycle of violence will have no end.

 

Where have I made any excuses for the Palestinians?

 

Your persistent lying about what others have posted betrays the weakness of your Israeli apologist argument.

[MrMojoRisin]

15 minutes ago, novacova said:

A complete delusion and an attempt to mitigate a flawed position. Israelis don’t target and murder innocent civilians and parade it with celebration and use their own civilians as shields. 

Yes they do.

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230831-israel-forces-shoot-dead-palestinian-minor-in-jerusalem/

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/burn-them-shoot-them-kill-them-israelis-cheer-jerusalem-palestinians-shot-gaza

 

15 minutes ago, novacova said:

Of course you’re incapable of understanding the relevance, either out of complete willful ignorance or this is your camp that you’re desperately trying to rationalize.

Huh?

[Danny Australia]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

What prevented the Palestinians from accepting the partition plan and taking things from there?

 

What prevented the Palestinians, post-1949, from demanding self rule/independence/sovereignty from the occupying Jordan and Egypt?

 

I'm referring to Palestinian choices placing them in their current predicament. Israel played it's part, sure, but it's  hardly nothing to do with how the Palestinian messed their own fate.

Better question to ask instead of getting carried away in historical disputed events and arguments events is What prevents Israel now from ending it's occupation and accepting an independent Palestinian state? Such a simple solution to a very complex issue. If this is to be achieved under the patronage of USA/RUSSIA/UN/EU then Israel can enjoy peace and security and the Palestinian can enjoy their freedom and engage in building their state. Do you think the Palestinians wants to engage in eternal fighting just for the sake of it? No, they are humans (not animals) who wants to live in peace and enjoy life.

 

Surely, there would be extremists on both sides who will always demand their historical biblical land but those are a minority and would eventually fade away.

[candide]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no 'dictate'. Mostly UN interventions occur with both side's agreement. And yet again, you make excuses for the Palestinians, or try to minimize their part. Now it's the World's fault....

Ok, but there are also specific factors. The main one currently being the high power imbalance between the Israel and the Pakestinians. There such a power imbalance that there cannot be any fair direct negotiation, without involving third parties .

 

For example, it has been possible with Egypt because Egypt was powerful enough. Actually it only occurred after Egypt regained enough power, if I remember well. 

[Thorgal]

4 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

It is absolutely the international community's fault.

Primarily the US is at fault as without the unquestioned backing of US money and military aid Israel would be forced to the negotiating table.

It is a terrible injustice what has been done to the Palestinians by Israel (and the US).

Palestinian terrorist tactics are horrific and inhumane

Both sides have extremists that will not concede an inch.

Until peace is enforced from the outside, the cycle of violence will have no end.

 

Where have I made any excuses for the Palestinians?

 

Your persistent lying about what others have posted betrays the weakness of your Israeli apologist argument.

Not a single word about the Israeli 75 years of colonization of Gaza and the West Bank.

 

Not a single word about the weekly protests of Israeli people against the Netanyahu government.

 

Not a single word about the lack of intel and preparation of the IDF when the attack was executed.

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Interesting title given to the mandate issued by the League of Nations to the British to administer the region don't you think?

Not really. It's a name referencing an area, It does not denote a state, or that there was one. Try harder. This has nothing much to do with the topic at hand.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

It is absolutely the international community's fault.

Primarily the US is at fault as without the unquestioned backing of US money and military aid Israel would be forced to the negotiating table.

It is a terrible injustice what has been done to the Palestinians by Israel (and the US).

Palestinian terrorist tactics are horrific and inhumane

Both sides have extremists that will not concede an inch.

Until peace is enforced from the outside, the cycle of violence will have no end.

 

Where have I made any excuses for the Palestinians?

 

Your persistent lying about what others have posted betrays the weakness of your Israeli apologist argument.

Sure, it's Israel's fault, It's the International community's fault, it's the USA's fault - everyone had something to do with it except the Palestinians. Now go on saying you don't make excuses for them....

 

USA support for Israel came about in the 1960's. Israel was founded well before that. Initially, there was even an arms embargo in place.

 

 

[Albaby]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:09 AM, 2baht said:

Wait for the retaliation, Israel will kill Palestinian women and children ln numbers! 

Certainly hope so. Bloody savages the lot of them. See the women handing out sweets in joy before the Israelis started to hit back? They are'nt human.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Better question to ask instead of getting carried away in historical disputed events and arguments events is What prevents Israel now from ending it's occupation and accepting an independent Palestinian state? Such a simple solution to a very complex issue. If this is to be achieved under the patronage of USA/RUSSIA/UN/EU then Israel can enjoy peace and security and the Palestinian can enjoy their freedom and engage in building their state. Do you think the Palestinians wants to engage in eternal fighting just for the sake of it? No, they are humans (not animals) who wants to live in peace and enjoy life.

 

Surely, there would be extremists on both sides who will always demand their historical biblical land but those are a minority and would eventually fade away.

 

Israel's current advantage over the Palestinians is a product of choices made, and course taken. You want to pretend otherwise, go right ahead. Funny how it's alright to discuss 'the roots' of the conflict when it suits, but not to address Palestinian side's issues in this regard.

 

Ending the occupation and forming a Palestinian state are a 'simple solution' only for people who insist on not being aware of how complex things are. Or, continuing the previous line of thought, unwilling to hold the Palestinians accountable for anything.

 

Peace requires two parties. Do you see the perpetrators of this barbaric attack as partners for peace? Do you pretend that they do not enjoy wide support among Palestinians?

 

I do not support Israel's military occupation and especially not the illegal settlement effort. I think that they run counter to long term Israeli interests as well. That doesn't make me blind to the other side's positions, actions and potential.