Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[Morch]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Jewish Voice for Peace has a large demonstration in Grand Central Station. Biden might be wondering why Jews don't support bombing children to bits.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/200-held-as-jewish-group-shuts-nycs-grand-central-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire/

Jewish Voice for Peace, an anti-Zionist group, protests Israeli strikes on Hamas with banners and slogans saying ‘not in our name,’ and ‘Palestinians should be free’

 

The US got whupped in the UN general assembly with a majority calling for humanitarian relief and a pause in the bombing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wAZVTlAZM

After rejecting an amendment proposed by Canada and the United States, the General Assembly, by 120 votes in favour 120, 14 against and 45 abstentions, today (27 Oct) adopted a resolution calling for an immediate and sustained humanitarian truce.

 

Now....if we could only find a link for a Palestinian, or Arab, Or Muslim protest focused on denouncing the Hamas attack and atrocities committed.....

 

Always amusing some posters feel the need to point the obvious fact people have different points of view, even Jews.

[placnx]

17 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I'm not sure which is more humane.  Bombing civilians or deliberately starving them.

 

How do we decide which is more humane ?

 

You say Hamas has plenty of essential supplies.   They are unaffected by the cutting off of life essentials.  Sounds possibly accurate, they have guns and power over the civilians, so they grab what they want.  OK I agree hamas is not affected by the israeli cutting off.

 

In that case why does israel continue to do it ?  Answer that ?  Not to deprive hamas operatives as you agree.

The supporters of Israel pose questions such as which form of death is more humane just to confuse the readers with irrelevancies, while denouncing statements of objection as "nonsense". Civilian death by whatever means is just part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

[placnx]

17 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Oh, Hamas 'assumed control'? Gee, I was under the impression they were elected. By Palestinians. By Gazans.

Why is there no need to talk about Hamas?

Why don't the people of Gaza, the UN, HRW and the Queen of Jordan go asking the supplies from them?

And Marie-Antionette said "Let them eat cake" (if they have no bread).

[Morch]

1 minute ago, placnx said:

And Marie-Antionette said "Let them eat cake" (if they have no bread).

 

You seem to prefer waffle....

[placnx]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed, with the connivance of the US and the western leaders that kowtowed to Washington, the western media has been successful at ignoring the Palestinian issue, and apparently  the western masses remained blithely ignorant of the true situation. Thankfully to Al Jazeera, not entirely ignored.

 

Seems to me that netanyahu and his cronies underestimated the world's response to just bombing thousands of Palestinians to bits from safety, and the reaction has probably shocked israel and the israeli supporters in the US government.

Even the western media will have to cover 2.3 million human beings suffering under a relentless bombing campaign, while being cut off from water, food, electricity and medical support.

The comparison between support being given to Ukraine vs that being given to Gaza will not have escaped many in the west.

Meanwhile across the world, outrage is fuelling demonstrations, even in Denmark, and in Turkey the demonstrations are massive. It may be happening slowly, but IMO the tide is turning against israel, and western governments that support israel.

As of last night it seems that all cell communication in Gaza has been cut, internet, too, so that then people outside Gaza can no longer see the massacre in real time. Al Jazeera was using satellite to send out news.

[deejai33]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

? I don't understand that. Perhaps you can reword it so I can.

 

OK.  Someone responded to my post about Israel cutting off essentials of life to Gaza by saying that:  the Palestinian civilians should go and ask Hamas, or Jordan, for the essentials of life.  

 

My reply was that these other groups do not have enough essentials to provide for 2m people.

 

And essential supplies are being curtailed anyway.  It needs Israel to re-open essential supply routes for 2m people.

 

The 'Queen of Jordan' came to mind as she recently made a demand for life's essentials (water, food etc) to be restored by Israel.  

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/queen-rania-jordan-amanpour-interview-intl/index.html

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by deejai33

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, deejai33 said:

 

OK.  Someone responded to my post about cutting of essentials of life to Gaza by saying that:  the Palestinian civilians should go and ask Hamas, or Jordan, for the essentials of life.  

 

My reply was that these other groups do not have enough essentials to provide for 2m people.

 

And essential supplies are being curtailed anyway.  It needs Israel to re-open essential supply routes for 2m people.

 

Why did Hamas who has ruled Gaza for so long not bothered to become more independent of Israel who they want to annihilate? Also golly gee they have a border with Egypt.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I think launching them rocket requires electricity as well...? Same goes staying in deep underground facilities.

 

As for the 'nowhere safe' nonsense - if what you claim was true, death toll would be higher.

The "dual use" excuse is really a pretext for ethnic cleansing. Putinesque.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, placnx said:

The "dual use" excuse is really a pretext for ethnic cleansing. Putinesque.

You've got all the buzz words!

[deejai33]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Why did Hamas who has ruled Gaza for so long not bothered to become more independent of Israel who they want to annihilate? Also golly gee they have a border with Egypt.

As you say Hamas should have used its period of rule in Gaza to reduce its reliance on Israeli water, electricity and food supplies.

 

My guess, with no evidence, is that Hamas would have aimed to do that.  But didn't succeed much.

 

I think gaza has 1 major electric generating plant, and 1 major water desalination plant.  It seems a small area, with little scope for growing crops.  I don't know how its economy worked, perhaps it just relies on imported goods.  And foreign aid.

 

Probably Israel placed significant restrictions on what could be imported.   Did the Israelis allow a fishing industry ? (Article below says 4,000 fishermen in gaza, operate under restrictions).

 

Lots I do not know about life in

gaza, but doubt it was prosperous.

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/0908/Border-closures-threaten-to-sink-Palestinian-fishing-industry

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by deejai33

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

As you say Hamas should have used its period of rule in Gaza to reduce its reliance on Israeli water, electricity and food supplies.

 

My guess, with no evidence, is that Hamas would have aimed to do that.  But didn't succeed much.

 

I think gaza has 1 major electric generating plant, and 1 major water desalination plant.  It seems a small area, with little scope for growing crops.  I don't know how its economy worked, perhaps it just relies on imported goods.  And foreign aid.

 

Probably Israel placed significant restrictions on what could be imported.   

You're guessing.

You really don't get it 

Hamas wants to kill all Jews and end Israel. 

If Gaza had a government favoring peace and cooperation with Israel Israel would respond in kind.

[deejai33]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're guessing.

You really don't get it 

Hamas wants to kill all Jews and end Israel. 

If Gaza had a government favoring peace and cooperation with Israel Israel would respond in kind.

Yes, I am guessing and googling at same time. Lots to find out.

 

Lets hope some non-hamas regime arises after Israels offensive.   

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by deejai33

[deejai33]

 

Interesting you talk recently about 'The Greater Israel' project.  I presume you refer to the state of Israel annexing all of the lands the Palestinians currently have.  No two state solution.  One Israeli state only, zero palestinian state.  The zero state solution.

 

In reference to this I saw this article on the YnetNews site.  I was pointed there by Mr. Morch in relation to Israels war plan.   He must think the site is a reliable source.

 

I scrolled down to the next article and found the map with no Palestine in it.  Could the article be 'fake news', not accurate.  Or did israel's PM really show that map at the UN ?

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1oibyxgt?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=internal

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Rimmer

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

The "dual use" excuse is really a pretext for ethnic cleansing. Putinesque.

 

You really convinced me there with that one-liner.

Then I remembered that the Gaza Strip was bordering Egypt as well.

And that even so Hamas was able to built enough rockets to keep throwing at Israel.

Try harder.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

As you say Hamas should have used its period of rule in Gaza to reduce its reliance on Israeli water, electricity and food supplies.

 

My guess, with no evidence, is that Hamas would have aimed to do that.  But didn't succeed much.

 

I think gaza has 1 major electric generating plant, and 1 major water desalination plant.  It seems a small area, with little scope for growing crops.  I don't know how its economy worked, perhaps it just relies on imported goods.  And foreign aid.

 

Probably Israel placed significant restrictions on what could be imported.   Did the Israelis allow a fishing industry ? (Article below says 4,000 fishermen in gaza, operate under restrictions).

 

Lots I do not know about life in

gaza, but doubt it was prosperous.

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/0908/Border-closures-threaten-to-sink-Palestinian-fishing-industry

 

 

 

My first guess is that you are aware that the Gaza Strip also borders Egypt.

My second guess it that you are aware why the blockade is in place.

[Jai Dee]

Several posts in violation of our Community Standards have been removed.

[Yellowtail]

7 hours ago, deejai33 said:

As you say Hamas should have used its period of rule in Gaza to reduce its reliance on Israeli water, electricity and food supplies.

 

My guess, with no evidence, is that Hamas would have aimed to do that.  But didn't succeed much.

Because they spent all the money, and used all the materials to dig 1,300 concrete reinforced tunnels that make up a 500km network that are 30-70 meters deep. 

7 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I think gaza has 1 major electric generating plant, and 1 major water desalination plant.  It seems a small area, with little scope for growing crops.  I don't know how its economy worked, perhaps it just relies on imported goods.  And foreign aid.

But none that hamas built. Hamas demolished all the infrastructure left by the Israelis when they gave it back to Palestine. 

7 hours ago, deejai33 said:

Probably Israel placed significant restrictions on what could be imported.   Did the Israelis allow a fishing industry ? (Article below says 4,000 fishermen in gaza, operate under restrictions).

Yes, significant restrictions were imposed because Palestine attacks Israel pretty much continuously. 

 

Fishermen everywhere operate under restrictions.

 

7 hours ago, deejai33 said:

 

Lots I do not know about life in

gaza, but doubt it was prosperous.

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/0908/Border-closures-threaten-to-sink-Palestinian-fishing-industry

 

But it could have been, and still could be. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, placnx said:

At present the question is whether Israel will end up digging itself a hole so deep that the world will find ways to force it to end the Greater Israel project.

The world may reject israel, but as long as the US establishment covers for israel nothing will change IMO.

 

IMO the outcome may be concentrated on any israeli that ventures outside the homeland. They will IMO become soft targets for revenge.

Perhaps netanyahu thinks the US is all they need, but we will see.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, placnx said:

The "dual use" excuse is really a pretext for ethnic cleansing. Putinesque.

What the poster you replied to does not seem to understand is that not every building in Gaza has been flattened, but as the bombing is random, there is no place that is safe from an occasional airstrike, so it's just a matter of bad luck if one shelters in a place that does get bombed.

They have killed over 7,000 so far and many under the rubble. One wonders how many must die to satisfy israeli desire for revenge?

 

The land invasion has begun in North Gaza, but on a limited scale. The israelis will have trouble moving their armoured vehicles, given the amount of rubble the bombing has created.

[Morch]

47 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What the poster you replied to does not seem to understand is that not every building in Gaza has been flattened, but as the bombing is random, there is no place that is safe from an occasional airstrike, so it's just a matter of bad luck if one shelters in a place that does get bombed.

They have killed over 7,000 so far and many under the rubble. One wonders how many must die to satisfy israeli desire for revenge?

 

The land invasion has begun in North Gaza, but on a limited scale. The israelis will have trouble moving their armoured vehicles, given the amount of rubble the bombing has created.

 

What that poster does not understand is how do you know that the bombing is random.

I think you have no clue as to that, and fail to apply basic logic to your posts.

 

There are not many bomb shelters to shelter in, on the Gaza Strip. Guess who didn't build them? The same people who do deny the general populace the safety of their own bunkers and tunnels. The same people who call on the citizens of Gaza to remain at homes and face the bombs.

 

As per your last bit - do you actually believe this was not taken into account? Does your military expertise and tactical insight favor taking armored vehicles into narrow streets? You know, the sort of places where maneuvering is limited and ambushing foes got more opportunities?

[Skipalongcassidy]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What that poster does not understand is how do you know that the bombing is random.

I think you have no clue as to that, and fail to apply basic logic to your posts.

 

There are not many bomb shelters to shelter in, on the Gaza Strip. Guess who didn't build them? The same people who do deny the general populace the safety of their own bunkers and tunnels. The same people who call on the citizens of Gaza to remain at homes and face the bombs.

 

As per your last bit - do you actually believe this was not taken into account? Does your military expertise and tactical insight favor taking armored vehicles into narrow streets? You know, the sort of places where maneuvering is limited and ambushing foes got more opportunities?

Turns out that the best bomb shelters at least from Israeli bombs are hospitals... that's where Hamas is hiding.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Turns out that the best bomb shelters at least from Israeli bombs are hospitals... that's where Hamas is hiding.

 

Detained terrorists admit Hamas using hospitals to shield themselves

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkrxjhcf6#autoplay

 

[TimeMachine]

Let's say the Israeli government has done something to upset Hamas. I mean before the Hamas attack. Something that made Hamas do what they did. What were those things? Are Hamas explaining well enough? Is it land issue? Or religious issue? All of the above? At the moment I see both sides capable of killing in retaliation. So one retaliation is justified? Which one? Both? 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Let's say the Israeli government has done something to upset Hamas. I mean before the Hamas attack. Something that made Hamas do what they did. What were those things? Are Hamas explaining well enough? Is it land issue? Or religious issue? All of the above? At the moment I see both sides capable of killing in retaliation. So one retaliation is justified? Which one? Both? 

 

The issue is less with the attack per se - but with what it involved. Fighting and violence in a context of an ongoing long term conflict is one thing, mostly 'acceptable' as a tit-for-tat feature. The atrocities and hostage taking made it into something else. It makes the background less relevant - as it doesn't justify the level of evil displayed.

 

 

 

[TimeMachine]

Just now, Morch said:

 

The issue is less with the attack per se - but with what it involved. Fighting and violence in a context of an ongoing long term conflict is one thing, mostly 'acceptable' as a tit-for-tat feature. The atrocities and hostage taking made it into something else. It makes the background less relevant - as it doesn't justify the level of evil displayed.

 

 

 

Sure , but still think knowing what retaliation is for is important.  For example , if someone raped my daughter I would do horrendous things to that person that would make me seem quite evil. Anybody can be driven to do evil things. So we definitely must study the cause and affects further in my opinion. If I was judge and juror I would want to know the full story as best I could.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Sure , but still think knowing what retaliation is for is important.  For example , if someone raped my daughter I would do horrendous things to that person that would make me seem quite evil. Anybody can be driven to do evil things. So we definitely must study the cause and affects further in my opinion. If I was judge and juror I would want to know the full story as best I could.

 

There are plenty of posts on here detailing respective versions of sins and woes. A whole lot of that all over the internet too. Doubt there a whole lot of need to rehash this several times on each and every one of these parallel topics.

[TimeMachine]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are plenty of posts on here detailing respective versions of sins and woes. A whole lot of that all over the internet too. Doubt there a whole lot of need to rehash this several times on each and every one of these parallel topics.

Actually I find it all very vague. Probably because it's coming from media and other onlookers. I see two vague stories and understand each had a right to be upset with each other. My final thought as it stands now is that Israel are kind of saying eff it, lets kill em all. Much like US when they went into Iraq as retaliation for being pissed off with a group of evil trouble makers. Another response from Israel could be to stick with defensive and weed out Hamas over time thus saving innocent lives. So next time armed Hamas soldiers attacked they could kill directly them same soldiers. I know it's a slower and more difficult way, but again , at the cost of innocent lives. The idea of breaking an egg to make an omellete doesn't work with human lives. Again, in my opinion. There is no perfect scenario I suppose. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by TimeMachine

[Morch]

1 minute ago, TimeMachine said:

Actually I find it all very vague. Probably because it's coming from media and other onlookers. I see two vague stories and understand each had a right to be upset with each other. My final thought as it stands now is that Israel are kind of saying eff it, lets kill em all. Much like US when they went into Iraq as retaliation for being pissed off with a group of evil trouble makers. Another response from Iraq could be to stick with defensive and weed out Hamas over time thus saving innocent lives. So next time armed Hamas soldiers attacked they could kill directly them same soldiers. I know it's a slower and more difficult way, but again , at the cost of innocent lives. The idea of breaking an egg to make an omellete doesn't work with human lives. Again, in my opinion. There is no perfect scenario I suppose. 

 

Taking it slow might not be an option - not with a hostage situation that's going nowhere, nor with Hamas military/terrorist capabilities intact. Add that such a strategy would have been almost certainly been interpreted as weakness inviting other attacks from various players - thus potentially putting more Israeli lives in danger, and expanding the scope of the conflict. I don't think that there are good answers, or a fail proof policy.

 

This isn't quite like America going into Iraq - in this here scenario there aren't too many doubts who's responsible, where they went and so on.

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

Sure , but still think knowing what retaliation is for is important.  For example , if someone raped my daughter I would do horrendous things to that person that would make me seem quite evil. Anybody can be driven to do evil things. So we definitely must study the cause and affects further in my opinion. If I was judge and juror I would want to know the full story as best I could.

If someone raped your daughter you would want to kill them, or at least beat them bloody, and perhaps rape them with a broomstick and if I was on the jury, you would not be convicted. Many people would see it as justified, or at the very least understandable. 

 

But if you tied him up and raped and killed his daughter, cut the baby out of his pregnant wife and killed them both, then killed him and burned down the neighborhood, all the while laughing on video tape, then no, you don't want me on the jury. 

 

This is the situation.

 

 

[deejai33]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:39 PM, deejai33 said:

Referring to post about map of new middle east shown at UN.  

 

The Jerusalem Post has more details.  Seems Israeli PM was trying to show which countries have made a peace agreement with Israel. 

 

But the map provoked anger as Palestinian territories were not shown.  Understandable that would be inflammatory.

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Edited October 29, 2023 by deejai33