Could an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza meet its aims?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How many children is a civilized country allowed to bomb to bits before they stop being civilized?

How many loaded 'questions' do you have?

[Longwood50]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What are you smoking?

Every time israeli forces raid the Palestinians looking to arrest Hamas supporters and destroying Palestinian property they leave dead Palestinians behind.

I am not sure I understand your particular level of lunacy but I do admire your dedication to it. 

The USA killed a huge number of Japanese.  THE USA WAS ATTACKED.
What would you have Israel do.  Just get attacked and then sit on their hands and not repsond. 

Those killed by Israel are IN RESPONSE to being the victim of an unprovoked attack.

If you can't understand the difference it serves as testimony to why you feel it is ok to just send rockets into Israel, take innocent people hostage, and execute civilians.  

I do not see the civilized world taking people they consider their enemies, and beheading them on social media.  That sir is the act of a barbarian. 

 

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

israel is losing any sympathy from the world community.

Yes Hamas taking innocent people as hostages and executing them is certainly winning the hearts of the world. 

Its obvious you suffer the same delusion as the Hamas.  

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Yes Hamas taking innocent people as hostages and executing them is certainly winning the hearts of the world. 

Its obvious you suffer the same delusion as the Hamas.  

 

You need to provide proof that hostages have been executed. They are far more valuable alive.

Some hostages have apparently been killed by israeli bombing though.

 

Hamas just released 2 hostages. No link required as it's all over media.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

I am not sure I understand your particular level of lunacy but I do admire your dedication to it. 

The USA killed a huge number of Japanese.  THE USA WAS ATTACKED.
What would you have Israel do.  Just get attacked and then sit on their hands and not repsond. 

Those killed by Israel are IN RESPONSE to being the victim of an unprovoked attack.

If you can't understand the difference it serves as testimony to why you feel it is ok to just send rockets into Israel, take innocent people hostage, and execute civilians.  

I do not see the civilized world taking people they consider their enemies, and beheading them on social media.  That sir is the act of a barbarian. 

 

Every time you insult me you have lost the argument.

Bye.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You need to provide proof that hostages have been executed. They are far more valuable alive.

Some hostages have apparently been killed by israeli bombing though.

 

Hamas just released 2 hostages. No link required as it's all over media.

Hamas did threaten to execute hostages. That too was all over the media (and posted here) some days ago. But regardless - do you think taking civilians hostage earns Hamas international cookie points?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Morch

[Longwood50]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You need to provide proof that hostages have been executed. They are far more valuable alive

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/4/hamas-says-executed-5-palestinians-in-gaza

[Longwood50]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Every time you insult me you have lost the argument.

Bye.

Well is is said, that it is very difficult to win a reasoned argument with an intelligent person and you may as well give up having a reasoned discussion with an idiot. 

You have convinced me,  I GIVE UP. 

[Morch]

Israel sets out 3 phases of war; will seek new ‘security regime’ once Hamas vanquished

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallant-says-after-hamas-vanquished-israel-will-seek-new-security-regime-in-gaza/

 

And here is a link to a non-official take on Israel's plans. The author is usually well connected and possess insight on such things.It's a long read, though:

 

Here's an outline of a war plan to change the situation in Gaza

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sysmhx1fp

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Well is is said, that it is very difficult to win a reasoned argument with an intelligent person and you may as well give up having a reasoned discussion with an idiot. 

You have convinced me,  I GIVE UP. 

You may have had something worthwhile to read, but I don't have to put up with your pathetic insults, so you are on ignore.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You may have had something worthwhile to read, but I don't have to put up with your pathetic insults, so you are on ignore.

I think it pathetic to inform people you put them on ignore.

Especially when you tend to respond to them a short time later.

[norfolkandchance]

19 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You may have had something worthwhile to read, but I don't have to put up with your pathetic insults, so you are on ignore.

Go on, tell us how many on your ignore list.

[scottiejohn]

3 hours ago, norfolkandchance said:

Go on, tell us how many on your ignore list.

I assume his ignore list is longer than any list of those who ever bother to read his ............ (insert as required)!

[placeholder]

This from David Remnick who reports from Israel:

 

"After many conversations in recent days with Israelis and Palestinians, after visiting the sites of the October 7th massacre, I find it difficult to convey the over-all sense of dread and rage, the intensity of the demands for vengeance. The atmosphere here is, in certain ways, reminiscent of the atmosphere in the United States in the days after 9/11. The urge not just to mourn, to protect, to defend, and to strike back but to “eradicate,” to “flatten,” to “end them” is, on the most primal level, almost inevitable. But it must be resisted."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/bidens-middle-east-burden

 

Good luck with that resistance. As polls show, the younger an Israeli is, the harsher their view of the Palestinians. Frontline troops tend to skew younger. Combine that with a desire for vengeance, and I don't see how a bloodbath can be avoided.  

 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

This from David Remnick who reports from Israel:

 

"After many conversations in recent days with Israelis and Palestinians, after visiting the sites of the October 7th massacre, I find it difficult to convey the over-all sense of dread and rage, the intensity of the demands for vengeance. The atmosphere here is, in certain ways, reminiscent of the atmosphere in the United States in the days after 9/11. The urge not just to mourn, to protect, to defend, and to strike back but to “eradicate,” to “flatten,” to “end them” is, on the most primal level, almost inevitable. But it must be resisted."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/bidens-middle-east-burden

 

Good luck with that resistance. As polls show, the younger an Israeli is, the harsher their view of the Palestinians. Frontline troops tend to skew younger. Combine that with a desire for vengeance, and I don't see how a bloodbath can be avoided.  

 

 

Posted earlier that the slim chance for peace is one of the casualties of the Hamas attack. Even disregarding the vengeance angle (which I don't), the prevailing sense in Israel is that the Palestinian side (I'm aware it was the Hamas, talking about public perceptions and feelings) cannot be trusted. Right wing elements do their best to fan these flames vs. Israeli Arabs as well, so far luckily no major traction. In many ways, similar collective state of mind as post-9/11 USA. Complete with quick advancement of legal initiatives curtailing freedom of speech, human rights on the domestic front. Major relaxation of gun ownership rules as well.

 

But for all that, at least for now, polls are overwhelmingly negative as far as Netanyahu and his coalition partners go:

 

Poll: 80% of Israelis say Netanyahu must publicly take responsibility for Oct. 7 failures

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-80-of-israelis-say-netanyahu-must-publicly-take-responsibility-for-oct-7-failures/

 

It's a good question whether these trends will hold and until when. While they do not imply a prospect for a pro-peace government or change in public attitudes, they may result with stopping the current loons. Long term, the trends for the political landscape are grimmer.

 

Needs to be remembered that this is an ongoing situation with extraordinary circumstances. Things may change rapidly.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Posted earlier that the slim chance for peace is one of the casualties of the Hamas attack. Even disregarding the vengeance angle (which I don't), the prevailing sense in Israel is that the Palestinian side (I'm aware it was the Hamas, talking about public perceptions and feelings) cannot be trusted. Right wing elements do their best to fan these flames vs. Israeli Arabs as well, so far luckily no major traction. In many ways, similar collective state of mind as post-9/11 USA. Complete with quick advancement of legal initiatives curtailing freedom of speech, human rights on the domestic front. Major relaxation of gun ownership rules as well.

 

But for all that, at least for now, polls are overwhelmingly negative as far as Netanyahu and his coalition partners go:

 

Poll: 80% of Israelis say Netanyahu must publicly take responsibility for Oct. 7 failures

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-80-of-israelis-say-netanyahu-must-publicly-take-responsibility-for-oct-7-failures/

 

It's a good question whether these trends will hold and until when. While they do not imply a prospect for a pro-peace government or change in public attitudes, they may result with stopping the current loons. Long term, the trends for the political landscape are grimmer.

 

Needs to be remembered that this is an ongoing situation with extraordinary circumstances. Things may change rapidly.

 

Given that this dissatisfaction, if such a tepid word is adequate, has nothing to do with the settlement policy, or the rest of Israel's generally abusive policy towards the Palestinians, we can expect to see more of the same in the future. And since the rising generations of Israelis are far more harshly disposed towards the Palestinians and Arab Israelis than are their elders, if anything, Israeli policy towards Palestinians is more likely to be more severe.

[KhunLA]

To the title ... NO

Only total annihilation of indigenous people can you successful invade & occupy a foreign land.

 

You'd think people would have leaned that by now.

[stevenl]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Given that this dissatisfaction, if such a tepid word is adequate, has nothing to do with the settlement policy, or the rest of Israel's generally abusive policy towards the Palestinians, we can expect to see more of the same in the future. And since the rising generations of Israelis are far more harshly disposed towards the Palestinians and Arab Israelis than are their elders, if anything, Israeli policy towards Palestinians is more likely to be more severe.

I'm afraid this is the case.

[Longwood50]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Only total annihilation of indigenous people can you successful invade & occupy a foreign land.

 

You'd think people would have leaned that by now

You are absolutely correct.  A population of people who objects to being occupied or controlled by another group is a recipie for constant attacks.  

The Romans learned that 2,000 years ago with the Jews.  They finally took the only action that works.  They leveled the country and banished its inhabitants.  The USA like Rome has interceded in many areas around the world.  The most recent lessons being Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.  So long as a large contingent of the indigenous population does not want you there, the land is not under control, it is merely occupied under military rule.  That is not a good way to have a longstanding peaceful coexistince.  

You can never peacefully coexist in a land or with people who hate you and whose religion even calls for your destruction. 

 

[Morch]

12 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Given that this dissatisfaction, if such a tepid word is adequate, has nothing to do with the settlement policy, or the rest of Israel's generally abusive policy towards the Palestinians, we can expect to see more of the same in the future. And since the rising generations of Israelis are far more harshly disposed towards the Palestinians and Arab Israelis than are their elders, if anything, Israeli policy towards Palestinians is more likely to be more severe.

If you wish to claim that the current Israeli government is exactly the same as the opposition, then you are plainly wrong. If you think that there is no difference in how Palestinian may be treated, or how much leeway illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank will get - you're quite out there. If you feel that it's same same because the alternative is not perfect, then your views are out of touch and uninteresting.

 

I addressed your closing remarks in my post - long term, the issue remains. It doesn't follow that the current government going full steam ahead with extreme policies is the same as a more moderate, reasonable one. Israeli Arabs held close views to the one you push - prior and right after the elections. This was widely justified by Israeli Arab commentators on media channels. Nine months later, and the very same pundits call on their public to reverse course and support the earlier spurned anti-government protest. Maybe they realized that there is a difference, or that things can always get worse.

 

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

If you wish to claim that the current Israeli government is exactly the same as the opposition, then you are plainly wrong. If you think that there is no difference in how Palestinian may be treated, or how much leeway illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank will get - you're quite out there. If you feel that it's same same because the alternative is not perfect, then your views are out of touch and uninteresting.

 

I addressed your closing remarks in my post - long term, the issue remains. It doesn't follow that the current government going full steam ahead with extreme policies is the same as a more moderate, reasonable one. Israeli Arabs held close views to the one you push - prior and right after the elections. This was widely justified by Israeli Arab commentators on media channels. Nine months later, and the very same pundits call on their public to reverse course and support the earlier spurned anti-government protest. Maybe they realized that there is a difference, or that things can always get worse.

 

What is there in my comments that would support your understanding that "the current Israeli government is exactly the same as the opposition..." The current government, or at least the one that was current until a few days ago, is even worse than previous governments. Does the expression "from bad to worse" mean anything to you?  And given that I noticed the the younger generations of Israelis hold, for the most part, even harsher opinions of Palestinians, I expect the situation ultimately to get even worse. Who knows? Netanyahu may someday legitimately be judged as relatively moderate if the present trajectory continues.

And where you use the phrase "more moderate" I would substitute "less extreme". This policy of settlers displacing Palestinians, destruction of Palestinian homes, confiscation of their lands, etc didn't begin with Likud and Benyamin Netanyahu, did it? The center in Israeli politics has moved so far to the right, that "more moderate" can now encompass a compendium of brutality and theft.

Edited October 22, 2023 by placeholder

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What is there in my comments that would support your understanding that "the current Israeli government is exactly the same as the opposition..." The current government, or at least the one that was current until a few days ago, is even worse than previous governments. Does the expression "from bad to worse" mean anything to you?  And given that I noticed the the younger generations of Israelis hold, for the most part, even harsher opinions of Palestinians, I expect the situation ultimately to get even worse. Who knows? Netanyahu may someday legitimately be judged as relatively moderate if the present trajectory continues.

And where you use the phrase "more moderate" I would substitute "less extreme". This policy of settlers displacing Palestinians, destruction of Palestinian homes, confiscation of their lands, etc didn't begin with Likud and Benyamin Netanyahu, did it? The center in Israeli politics has moves so far to the right, that "more moderate" can now encompass a compendium of brutality and theft.

Your post gave the impression that you see the current Israeli government's treatment of the Palestinians as standard, and that even a change in government would be more of the same. You start the post above saying implying that there is, indeed, a difference, you close it by essentially going back to the 'same same' position.

 

You can go for petty bickering about labels to your heart's content. It's what you do.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

Your post gave the impression that you see the current Israeli government's treatment of the Palestinians as standard, and that even a change in government would be more of the same. You start the post above saying implying that there is, indeed, a difference, you close it by essentially going back to the 'same same' position.

 

You can go for petty bickering about labels to your heart's content. It's what you do.

My "post gave the impression"? That's all you've got?  I specifically pointed out that the center has moved far to the right. How is that saying things are the same? I even used the phrase "from bad to worse." I specifically noted that If my post implies anything, and I think it actually comes out and says it,  it isn't that there will be more of the same, but rather that things will ultimately get worse. Given the trajectory of Israeli public opinion, that's a pretty easy call to make.

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

My "post gave the impression"? That's all you've got?  I specifically pointed out that the center has moved far to the right. How is that saying things are the same? I even used the phrase "from bad to worse." I specifically noted that If my post implies anything, and I think it actually comes out and says it,  it isn't that there will be more of the same, but rather that things will ultimately get worse. Given the trajectory of Israeli public opinion, that's a pretty easy call to make.

He's resorting more and more to interpreting posts to give his own opinion. Or better, to try and put people in place.

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

My "post gave the impression"? That's all you've got?  I specifically pointed out that the center has moved far to the right. How is that saying things are the same? I even used the phrase "from bad to worse." I specifically noted that If my post implies anything, and I think it actually comes out and says it,  it isn't that there will be more of the same, but rather that things will ultimately get worse. Given the trajectory of Israeli public opinion, that's a pretty easy call to make.

No, that's how I read your post, Even now.

You may want to go back to my original comment (not the first one made even, on this exact point, and in discussions with you) - I differentiate between immediate, short term, medium term possible outcomes and long term predictions. You seem to place little importance to the former, concentrating mainly on the latter. 

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, stevenl said:

He's resorting more and more to interpreting posts to give his own opinion. Or better, to try and put people in place.

Gee, imagine posting my own opinions on an open forum. What a strange concept.

Put in place, how? Does this cover commenting, disagreeing or correcting posts of others? See the line above.