Canadian Woman Arrested For Killing Two Thai Girls, Father In Road Accident

[sbk]

Who says hes guilty?

Nothing has been proven yet.

Even if he was drunk the bar that sold him the alchohol has to share the blame.

Sounds like 4 people were riding on a motorbike half of whom could also have been drinking and/ or talking on cell phones I see this all the time in chiangmai.

The motorbike could have ignored a stopsign.Have you ever seen thais stop at a stop sign? The never stop they just merge and hope everyone else does the same.

There are no clear traffic laws and even if there were nobody is enforcing them.

Tourists are lured here by the thailand tourist industry to consume alchohol and pick up women.

If he was drinking and driving he is to blame but the blame doesnt stop there its a bigger problem than one drunk farang.

Personally I wouldnt even drive in thailand.I only use a bicycle and rarely a motorbike and even then ive had difficult encounters with drivers. The liability here is clearly against the farang. Even if you are in the right you may have to shoulder the responsibility for anything that happens and come up with cash. If you kill someone, God help you....

I am seeing alot of speculation here; if, could have etc etc..

The only FACTS we have are that 3 people are dead, two of them small children and a Canadian Woman has been charged for it. The report has changed from the initial one, who really knows what the facts are?

Most likely, only the people involved. Endless speculation and blaming of both the victims and the driver are pointless and most likely painful to all parties involved. Lets try to show some good judgment here and display common sense.

[slapout]

The only thing I know is what I read here and in the Thai newspapers and both at times jump to conclusions. I did not read where a witness had been interviewed as yet. I did read the lady was setting by the side of the road. It is very probable she was in shock, not unheard of with survivors of of this type of accident, and at times these people can appear incoherrent or drunk. For the Thai police to charge a farang with negligence does not surprise me as I was a witness to this one time and the Thai on motorbike was in the wrong. This was later sorted out by the police themselves with charges being dropped. This was after a couple eyewintness gave their version at the station. My condolences to the victims and their familes although I doubt they read Thai visa and I hope the driver of the car,if she does, does not think we all think in the same ways.

[sbk]

One poster has already stated that the victims are members of his maid's family. Lets hope he isn't letting his maid know about some of the posts here.

And another has already stated she knows the driver. Let's hope she isn't telling her about some of the posts here either.

[johnnymoretti]

A tragedy in every sense of the word.

Additionally, I am appalled at the notion by some on this forum that the victims were somehow at fault by riding 4-up on a motorbike. To even mention that they were somehow at fault is a reckless statement. Don't forget that we are visitors in the country and this culture cannot be compared to any other as to what is normal or abnormal. Though I agree that riding 4-up on a motorbike is not a prudent way to be safe, it nonetheless is the way of life here in Thailand. If the family could have afforded the Honda that killed them, then I'm sure they would have purchased it. I work with children here in Thailand and I cringe every time I hear of a senseless tragedy like this. And the breadwinner, perhaps, is gone, too. I hope the mother regains her life. She is now the real victim.

As for the man that 'caused' this accident, I share no empathy, unless it is proven it was a complete accident. Whether he was drunk or not, if he is at fault, he should spend the rest of his life in a Thai prison. You must be accountable for your actions regardless of circumstances. If he is found to have been drunk, then I pity him in prison. He will soberly aware of his actions for years to come.

A sad story, indeed.

***flame removed***

So, if the "victims" were at fault for pulling out without looking (and we all know that NEVER happens here in LOS) then it was just an "accident?"

Also, since when is 4 up on a motorbike part of a culture?

Having said that, IF this guy was drunk then, agreed, the book needs to be thrown but, if it was truly an accident, then it needs to be treated as such. Is it also part of the "culture" that the farang is responsible no matter what?

If another Thai apologist starts prattling on about "Don't forget that we are visitors in the country and this culture cannot be compared to any other as to what is normal or abnormal" I might very well throw up on their shoes. Why is it that prudent human behavior (or lack of it) is excused by "culture?"

Nice to see two opinions. At least we're not being censored here.

[TAWP]

The real problem highlighted here is the low standard of newspapers and their reporting.

You truly cannot take anything at face value.

[sbk]

Off topic posts and flames have been deleted. Lets keep this civil please

[Gary A]

If I had just killed three or maybe four people, I would likely appear drunk or incoherent too. Placing blame is easy but too many times you get it wrong. I'm sure there are circumstances that we will never know about. If you want to blame someone/something, blame the poorly enforced traffic laws. I have been driving here in Thailand many years and just thank my lucky stars that I have killed no one. I can't count the VERY close calls. Just yesterday there was a man on a motorbike who was in the middle of the road going about 10 kilometers an hour. I nearly stopped and blew the horn Twice to get him to move out of the way. I have no idea if he was drunk or just stupid. Whose fault would it have been if I had hit him?

Edited July 18, 2007 by Gary A

[johnnymoretti]

Thank you. You know, I post to this forum at times, and never do I attack the opinions or statements made by other posters. I have respected the posts of others. But for some reason,some found my statements bent against their personal opinions and instead they attacked me (cr*p, lame, etc) If you don't like what I have to say, then reply with some intelligent rebuttle or simply move on to the next post.

As shame about what happened in this tragedy, but I still carry an opinion. And I respect yours and expect you to respect mine.

Thank you.

[Goldenbead]

Oh dear. I know the lady involved as well. I think it is much more likely that she was in shock at the scene of the accident because I know she doesn't drink!

[kmart]

Thank you. You know, I post to this forum at times, and never do I attack the opinions or statements made by other posters. I have respected the posts of others. But for some reason,some found my statements bent against their personal opinions and instead they attacked me (cr*p, lame, etc) If you don't like what I have to say, then reply with some intelligent rebuttle or simply move on to the next post.

As shame about what happened in this tragedy, but I still carry an opinion. And I respect yours and expect you to respect mine.

Thank you.

You stand by your opinions? Then expect others to think of them as lame and unhelpful. Your previous post was well wide of the mark and other people rightfully criticized you. Maybe because, like me, they have to do a lot of driving here, and expect that what happened here could happen to us as well. Save your condemnations of the driver until all facts are known.

[sbk]

Enough with the off-topic discussions regarding other posters or their intentions.

[southwest19]

Who says hes guilty?

Nothing has been proven yet.

Even if he was drunk the bar that sold him the alchohol has to share the blame.

Sounds like 4 people were riding on a motorbike half of whom could also have been drinking and/ or talking on cell phones I see this all the time in chiangmai.

The motorbike could have ignored a stopsign.Have you ever seen thais stop at a stop sign? The never stop they just merge and hope everyone else does the same.

There are no clear traffic laws and even if there were nobody is enforcing them.

Tourists are lured here by the thailand tourist industry to consume alchohol and pick up women.

If he was drinking and driving he is to blame but the blame doesnt stop there its a bigger problem than one drunk farang.

Personally I wouldnt even drive in thailand.I only use a bicycle and rarely a motorbike and even then ive had difficult encounters with drivers. The liability here is clearly against the farang. Even if you are in the right you may have to shoulder the responsibility for anything that happens and come up with cash. If you kill someone, God help you....

I am seeing alot of speculation here; if, could have etc etc..

The only FACTS we have are that 3 people are dead, two of them small children and a Canadian Woman has been charged for it. The report has changed from the initial one, who really knows what the facts are?

Most likely, only the people involved. Endless speculation and blaming of both the victims and the driver are pointless and most likely painful to all parties involved. Lets try to show some good judgment here and display common sense.

One FACT that you constantly seem to overlook is that there were four people on a motorbike designed for two.

[Scott]

What a tragic accident, but what an interesting thread. From man to woman, from hang him high to forgive her; from drunk to teetotaler etc. etc.

It would make for interesting reading if it wasn't such a tragic accident.

[DamianMavis]

You can take this as Thai bashing but to me its just common knowledge so... whatever. If a Falang is involved in an accident they are always charged right away (and newspapers will print DRUNK) and then it is sorted out later (if your lucky). To those stating "well she was charged so she's at fault no?". Absolutely not, the police in my experience always blame the falang and then if there's evidence to support your innocence and they don't have a reason to hate you they will drop the charges. Seen this many times, hasn't everyone? This could easily happen to me (I could be involved in a terrible accident killing a family no matter how safely I drive) and I have never touched alcohol but guaranteed it will be printed that they suspect I was drunk, I really don't understand some peoples opinions here, it's like they live in a DIFFERENT Thailand than I.

Damian

[sbk]

One FACT that you constantly seem to overlook is that there were four people on a motorbike designed for two.

๋Just curious SW, do you honestly think that this family could afford to buy a truck? And if they could, don't you think they would?

Regardless, we don't know the circumstances of the accident and it is purely speculation to assume the fact that two adults and two small children on a motorcycle are the cause of the accident.

I, for one, am getting mightily tired of the endless finger pointing, speculation and trial by forum that this thread has engendered.

[qualtrough]

You can take this as Thai bashing but to me its just common knowledge so... whatever. If a Falang is involved in an accident they are always charged right away (and newspapers will print DRUNK) and then it is sorted out later (if your lucky). To those stating "well she was charged so she's at fault no?". Absolutely not, the police in my experience always blame the falang and then if there's evidence to support your innocence and they don't have a reason to hate you they will drop the charges. Seen this many times, hasn't everyone? This could easily happen to me (I could be involved in a terrible accident killing a family no matter how safely I drive) and I have never touched alcohol but guaranteed it will be printed that they suspect I was drunk, I really don't understand some peoples opinions here, it's like they live in a DIFFERENT Thailand than I.

Damian

Sorry, you are just plain wrong to make such a blanket statement. Do a search on Thai Visa for many instances of farangs involved in accidents who were not found automatically at fault.

I always wonder why people who have such a negative opinion of Thailand bothers living here. Is someone forcing you to live here??

[PETERTHEEATER]

Very sad and also too common. I admit that I myself have driven after a few beers or so, but only on a small scooter which I drive like an OAP as I am aware my senses are impaired. I would not however consider driving something that weighs over a tonne in weight, along dark streets in a country famous for maniacal driving whilst intoxicated.

So, in your opinion it is OK to drive a motorcycle whilst under the influence of alcohol but not a car. With double standards like that you must be a George Bush supporter!

[stevemiddie]

All of you recommending life sentence, throw away the key, etc., for a probable unintentional, though aggravated by alcohol manslaughter do realize I hope that you are lobbying for a penalty many times more serious than the country you likely come from don't you?

I wonder where that logic enters? You are suggesting a heavier penalty for committing the same crime that would earn a lesser sentence in the west. Go figure...

If you kill whilst under the influence in the UK..............you DO go to prison.

Some cases get 3-4 years some have been for 10 years.

The UK public wants to see these sentences increased.

[percy2]

One FACT that you constantly seem to overlook is that there were four people on a motorbike designed for two.

๋Just curious SW, do you honestly think that this family could afford to buy a truck? And if they could, don't you think they would?

SBK you seem to be starting an argument of safety v economics, a very polarizing thing to do.

I, for one, am getting mightily tired of the endless finger pointing, speculation and trial by forum that this thread has engendered.

I agree ,. Though it would be wrong to let foolish posts stand un answered.

Cheers

[sbk]

One FACT that you constantly seem to overlook is that there were four people on a motorbike designed for two.

๋Just curious SW, do you honestly think that this family could afford to buy a truck? And if they could, don't you think they would?

SBK you seem to be starting an argument of safety v economics, a very polarizing thing to do.

I, for one, am getting mightily tired of the endless finger pointing, speculation and trial by forum that this thread has engendered.

I agree ,. Though it would be wrong to let foolish posts stand un answered.

Cheers

No argument that it isn't safe, just the reality that these people most likely could not afford a truck. Had they been able to, I am sure they would have been driving that instead. It is easy enough to point the finger and say "they shouldn't have parents and two small children on a motorbike" when the reality is that was, most likely, their only choice.

Again, I feel that the only facts we have are that 3 people are dead, and one person arrested for those deaths. I do not stand in judgment of either the family or the Canadian. Just offer sympathy for everyone involved, who, I am sure, would have much preferred to not have such a tragic outcome.

[MrSquigle]

Well in Oz you do not get locked up if you kill by drunk driving.

[DamianMavis]

You can take this as Thai bashing but to me its just common knowledge so... whatever. If a Falang is involved in an accident they are always charged right away (and newspapers will print DRUNK) and then it is sorted out later (if your lucky). To those stating "well she was charged so she's at fault no?". Absolutely not, the police in my experience always blame the falang and then if there's evidence to support your innocence and they don't have a reason to hate you they will drop the charges. Seen this many times, hasn't everyone? This could easily happen to me (I could be involved in a terrible accident killing a family no matter how safely I drive) and I have never touched alcohol but guaranteed it will be printed that they suspect I was drunk, I really don't understand some peoples opinions here, it's like they live in a DIFFERENT Thailand than I.

Damian

Sorry, you are just plain wrong to make such a blanket statement. Do a search on Thai Visa for many instances of farangs involved in accidents who were not found automatically at fault.

I always wonder why people who have such a negative opinion of Thailand bothers living here. Is someone forcing you to live here??

Im not negative about Thailand, my experiences have been negative (there are positive ones too) and its made me realistic and I accept that reality in order to work here. I love Thailand for giving me the opportunity to follow my dreams, but I dont for one second forget how dangerous and unfair this place is and do my best to avoid as much trouble as possible keeping that knowledge in mind. The knowledge safeguards me to some extent, if I happily went around thinking this was ACTUALLY the land of smiles I'd fall victim to all kinds of trouble.

If theres a few examples of Falangs being given the benefit of the doubt by police or not seen as an easy cash in during an accident than great, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens ALOT. I will retract my statement that it always happens.

I brought a close friend to the Tonglor police station to report her rape, after leering at her while she gave the details they then THREATENED TO DEPORT ME. Chew on that one. I know lots of instances where the falang is the victim but then goes to jail. Getting stabbed but daring to defend himself and being charged and imprisoned for not letting his attackers kill him. Or my underage friend who went to jail for a week for stopping the thieves at his house from killing and robbing him, all he did was punch them in the face after a severe blow to his head. With knowledge like this how can I avoid reality? How can you? Doesn't make me negative, just knowledgeable and a realist. I love this place, but I have accepted the reality of it.

Damian Mavis

[seonai]

I am also a friend of Leslie, the accused, and just want to say that she is one of the sweetest, most gentle women I have ever met. She's a quiet and thoughtful person who is not known to drink to excess and she gets on well with all who meet her. I worked and travelled with her as did Khall and my utmost sympathies go out to her at this awful time.

Whatever all you flamers out there say, this was an accident. Don't forget that.

[Mid]

when the reality is that was, most likely, their only choice.

sorry , not true .

[kiakaha]

if he was drunk - throw the book at him

also - take this as an example why 4 persons should not be on a motorcycle!

and also why 1 person + max 1 pillion should by law wear helmets of an appropriately high standard (as opposed to those plastic salad bowls that many wear.)

[thaigene2]

Why does everyone everyone keep calling the Canadian "HE" when the heading says "Canadian WOMAN arrested for killing two girls..etc"??

Sorry if others have answered this. I gave up after pg 3. "Leslie" could be either male or female by the way. Was it a guess by the OP?

[thaigene2]

when the reality is that was, most likely, their only choice.

sorry , not true .

You're right. They could have been sailing home in your sailboat skipper.

[chuchok]

I am also a friend of Leslie, the accused, and just want to say that she is one of the sweetest, most gentle women I have ever met. She's a quiet and thoughtful person who is not known to drink to excess and she gets on well with all who meet her. I worked and travelled with her as did Khall and my utmost sympathies go out to her at this awful time.

Whatever all you flamers out there say, this was an accident. Don't forget that.

A sad story all round.It's also a shame that this board is so full of people that are quik to condem without knowing the facts.Some people can't help themselves I suppose.

[seonai]

Thaigene the original info given out about the case suggested the accused was a man, it later became clear that she is female. It's too big a job to remove all the refs to 'he'.

[thaigene2]

You can take this as Thai bashing but to me its just common knowledge so... whatever. If a Falang is involved in an accident they are always charged right away (and newspapers will print DRUNK) and then it is sorted out later (if your lucky). To those stating "well she was charged so she's at fault no?". Absolutely not, the police in my experience always blame the falang and then if there's evidence to support your innocence and they don't have a reason to hate you they will drop the charges. Seen this many times, hasn't everyone? This could easily happen to me (I could be involved in a terrible accident killing a family no matter how safely I drive) and I have never touched alcohol but guaranteed it will be printed that they suspect I was drunk, I really don't understand some peoples opinions here, it's like they live in a DIFFERENT Thailand than I.

Damian

Sorry, you are just plain wrong to make such a blanket statement. Do a search on Thai Visa for many instances of farangs involved in accidents who were not found automatically at fault.

I always wonder why people who have such a negative opinion of Thailand bothers living here. Is someone forcing you to live here??

Qualtrough - He's just expressing his view. And he's got experience to back it up apparently. Without vouching for his comments, let's look at it another way.

How would the news story have played out a couple of weeks back if it was a rich (or better yet not so rich) farang who drove his Benz or Toyota into a group of Thais at a bus stop after hitting the bus driver in the head with a rock after a Jai Ron outburst? You don't need to get defensive or argue back here as this is not a criticsim of your comments (but go ahead of course if you want)...but just think about that.