Biden says he will not let Hamas and Putin win !

[Morch]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

So set-up a go fund me for those who wish to donate, those who don't can opt out.

Are there many countries applying what you prescribed?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

I was eluding to your tax dollars being handed out overseas.... instead of being spent on infrastructure at home where it's obviously needed...

They could also spend those billions on medical aid for those in need of hospital treatments, making it more affordable for most.

or even a tax cut 

I understand your sentiment, really. That's what Congressmen and Senators are for. By all means, write yours and make your views known.

[Skipalongcassidy]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who is the "aggressor" in Gaza right now?

IMO it's the ones bombing over a thousand children to bits.

So in your mind a thousand children unfortunate enough to have been born to arabs living in Palestine are more valuable than the 8+ million Israelis that continue to be bombed by the arabs...  

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Biden says he will not let Hamas and Putin win !

 

Is he intending to lead the troops in himself, or is he going to let other people go in harm's way?

 

Rhetorical question.

 

Hamas leaders continue to urge Gazans to remain at their homes, or even return there - and die for the cause. They do this while living (a life of luxury, one might add) in other countries - Qatar, for example.

[RanongCat]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted.

So shelling and bombing civilians remedies that ?

[Pique Dard]

22 hours ago, Social Media said:

"Hamas and Putin represent different threats, but they share this in common: they both want to completely annihilate a neighboring democracy."

...one would all laugh if armed conflicts weren't such a tragedy

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

So shelling and bombing civilians remedies that ?

American citizens were murdered and abducted. One of the reasons for USA involvement.

That was the context of the posts above.

[hotchilli]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

Are there many countries applying what you prescribed?

Biden seems to think it's fine to give away billions of American tax dollars to fund wars around the world.. Maybe this would be a more Democratic way.

Ask the population to  donate if they wish, and not have their hard earned cash dispensed with by one mans view.

[RanongCat]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted. One of the reasons for USA involvement.

That was the context of the posts above.

One of the reasons ? Ah , well done . Never mind other nationalities then.

4000 + dead and rising. How many of those are Hamas mafia? Making Gaza untenable for Hamas and Co. at the cost of an impoverished population long devoid of any capacity to protect themselves politically or physically from either side of a conflict in which total disregard for International convention on War as  declared by Israel is ignored.

 

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

I was eluding to your tax dollars being handed out overseas.... instead of being spent on infrastructure at home where it's obviously needed...

They could also spend those billions on medical aid for those in need of hospital treatments, making it more affordable for most.

or even a tax cut 

Just a couple of observations. We do probably have areas in which we could agree on cutting the military support subsidizing some regimes. I fully supported the USA sending Covid vaccines to others around the globe ... that is the kind of foreign aid I see as positive and in line with the best of American ideals. There certainly is an argument for defending American interests ... I do favor paying for the US Navy to continue sailing in all international waters consistent with international law. I supported going into Afghanistan to punish that people for allowing the 9-11 attacks (but opposed staying), I opposed going into Iraq ... so it depends in my mind. I certainly support joining all other developed nations in providing a national healthcare program (how many of us are already on state and federal programs, either as employees or retirees, etc. Seems grossly inefficient and in the interests of profits to me. Anyway ... have a good day.

[wwest5829]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who is the "aggressor" in Gaza right now?

IMO it's the ones bombing over a thousand children to bits.

The fighting continues on both sides. We would, no doubt, agree on wanting the death and destruction to stop. Israel had a right to respond but I am not one who would agree to taking all measures. I doubt a ground invasion of Gaza will turn out toward that end.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

Biden seems to think it's fine to give away billions of American tax dollars to fund wars around the world.. Maybe this would be a more Democratic way.

Ask the population to  donate if they wish, and not have their hard earned cash dispensed with by one mans view.

Maybe in an ideal world. In this world citizens (not only American) do not get this level of choice regarding taxes. Elections sometimes allow a change of where money goes to, but even that doesn't allow for individual and specific choices.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

One of the reasons ? Ah , well done . Never mind other nationalities then.

4000 + dead and rising. How many of those are Hamas mafia? Making Gaza untenable for Hamas and Co. at the cost of an impoverished population long devoid of any capacity to protect themselves politically or physically from either side of a conflict in which total disregard for International convention on War as  declared by Israel is ignored.

 

 

Governments take care of their own first. That's how it is. At least better than Hamas government, who actively puts the people in harm's way.

 

Hamas is not a 'mafia', but a terrorist organization. If Hamas wasn't bent on digging in among the civilians, the death toll would be lower. If Hamas would not have carried out its attack on Israel, there would be no bombings. If Hamas bothered investing in bomb shelters, there would be less Gazan deaths. But go on making it all about Israel....

 

Hamas enjoys significant support from the civilian population. Civilians participated, as a mob, in the attack on Israel and atrocities committed. Civilians cheered and celebrated the attack. Painting all Gazans as innocent and peaceful, or trying to claim these are two totally different groups is misleading.

 

And again, only complaints about Israel's 'disregard' when it comes to international law. Funny that.

 

 

[rabas]

42 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

1 hour ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted.

So shelling and bombing civilians remedies that ?

 

No but shelling and bombing Hamas does..

 

[RanongCat]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Governments take care of their own first. That's how it is. At least better than Hamas government, who actively puts the people in harm's way.

 

Hamas is not a 'mafia', but a terrorist organization. If Hamas wasn't bent on digging in among the civilians, the death toll would be lower. If Hamas would not have carried out its attack on Israel, there would be no bombings. If Hamas bothered investing in bomb shelters, there would be less Gazan deaths. But go on making it all about Israel....

 

Hamas enjoys significant support from the civilian population. Civilians participated, as a mob, in the attack on Israel and atrocities committed. Civilians cheered and celebrated the attack. Painting all Gazans as innocent and peaceful, or trying to claim these are two totally different groups is misleading.

 

And again, only complaints about Israel's 'disregard' when it comes to international law. Funny that.

 

 

I use the  term Mafia because  mafia orgs. use terror to extract co operation . Thus yes, terrorist Hamas.

[RanongCat]

2 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

No but shelling and bombing Hamas does..

 

So blanket bombing would  provide a quicker solution than selected civilian targets which Hamas members steer clear of as much as possible ?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, RanongCat said:

So blanket bombing would  provide a quicker solution than selected civilian targets which Hamas members steer clear of as much as possible ?

Hamas members do not steer clear of civilian targets. Quite the opposite.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

I use the  term Mafia because  mafia orgs. use terror to extract co operation . Thus yes, terrorist Hamas.

Calling a terrorist organization like Hamas 'mafia' comes off as an attempt to minimize things.

[rabas]

14 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

So blanket bombing would  provide a quicker solution than selected civilian targets which Hamas members steer clear of as much as possible ?

What?

[thaibeachlovers]

32 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

The fighting continues on both sides. We would, no doubt, agree on wanting the death and destruction to stop. Israel had a right to respond but I am not one who would agree to taking all measures. I doubt a ground invasion of Gaza will turn out toward that end.

Sending heavily armed soldiers backed up by artillery and airpower into Gaza will not eliminate Hamas which has gained hundreds of thousands of new supporters in many countries ( and the leaders of Hamas do not apparently live in Gaza ), but it will result in the deaths of many innocents.

While many innocents will die, after the slaughter ends many israelis will have to live with the memory of killing children and women. As the soldiers that committed My Lai can attest, it's not a happy memory.

One wonders if netanyahu has taken the brutalisation of young israelis into account in his ( IMO ) quest to annihilate Palestinians.

 

IMO all that will result from this is that israel will face millions more opponents than it started with.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

So blanket bombing would  provide a quicker solution than selected civilian targets which Hamas members steer clear of as much as possible ?

Hamas members are probably hiding in the tunnels beneath Gaza, waiting for the land invasion. I doubt any are on the surface where they could be killed in the bombing. Israel knows about the tunnels, and they must know that Hamas are safe in them, but they still use the excuse that they have to bomb residential areas because "Hamas is using it as a base". One is sickened by it.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sending heavily armed soldiers backed up by artillery and airpower into Gaza will not eliminate Hamas which has gained hundreds of thousands of new supporters in many countries ( and the leaders of Hamas do not apparently live in Gaza ), but it will result in the deaths of many innocents.

While many innocents will die, after the slaughter ends many israelis will have to live with the memory of killing children and women. As the soldiers that committed My Lai can attest, it's not a happy memory.

One wonders if netanyahu has taken the brutalisation of young israelis into account in his ( IMO ) quest to annihilate Palestinians.

 

IMO all that will result from this is that israel will face millions more opponents than it started with.

Well, sending heavily armed terrorists backed up by thousands of rockets into Israel did not, and will not eliminate Israel - but indeed resulted in the death of many innocents.

 

While totally eliminating Hamas might not doable, it is certainly possible to deal a strong enough blow to render it a non-threat (at least not on par with how things were).

 

Israelis still mourn their own dead. Somehow you don't seem to think that Palestinians will lose much sleep over these casualties. What does it say about your view of the Palestinians? How have Hamas taken the 'brutalisation' of young Palestinians into account?

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

Let joe take the hoodlums behind the gym, problem solved.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hamas members are probably hiding in the tunnels beneath Gaza, waiting for the land invasion. I doubt any are on the surface where they could be killed in the bombing. Israel knows about the tunnels, and they must know that Hamas are safe in them, but they still use the excuse that they have to bomb residential areas because "Hamas is using it as a base". One is sickened by it.

There were already reports of Hamas commanders killed, and a couple taken in raids. Posted on the main topic, I think.

 

Tunnels run under buildings. Did you actually not get this?

[rabas]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hamas members are probably hiding in the tunnels beneath Gaza, waiting for the land invasion. I doubt any are on the surface where they could be killed in the bombing. Israel knows about the tunnels, and they must know that Hamas are safe in them, but they still use the excuse that they have to bomb residential areas because "Hamas is using it as a base". One is sickened by it.

Were hiding... Have you seen the many videos of high precision IDF bunker busters walking down the center lane of major roads in Gaza?

[wwest5829]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sending heavily armed soldiers backed up by artillery and airpower into Gaza will not eliminate Hamas which has gained hundreds of thousands of new supporters in many countries ( and the leaders of Hamas do not apparently live in Gaza ), but it will result in the deaths of many innocents.

While many innocents will die, after the slaughter ends many israelis will have to live with the memory of killing children and women. As the soldiers that committed My Lai can attest, it's not a happy memory.

One wonders if netanyahu has taken the brutalisation of young israelis into account in his ( IMO ) quest to annihilate Palestinians.

 

IMO all that will result from this is that israel will face millions more opponents than it started with.

History reflects that, in the short run, you can suppress by the use of force but, in the longer run, unless the underlying cause is addressed there will be continued resistance. I agree with you as regards the psychological costs and doubt Bibi is taking that into consideration ... or if he is ... regarding it as collateral damage. A homeland for the remnants of the annexation of the Jews by the Nazis led to the formation of current day Israel. Perhaps the action results by Israel will bring forth a sustained demand for a Palestinian homeland. I cannot see any other alternative hoping to bring about a sustainable peace but a two state solution. Israel will oppose its removal totally from the West Bank but, as you point out, it is currently endangering burning through global good will.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

History reflects that, in the short run, you can suppress by the use of force but, in the longer run, unless the underlying cause is addressed there will be continued resistance. I agree with you as regards the psychological costs and doubt Bibi is taking that into consideration ... or if he is ... regarding it as collateral damage. A homeland for the remnants of the annexation of the Jews by the Nazis led to the formation of current day Israel. Perhaps the action results by Israel will bring forth a sustained demand for a Palestinian homeland. I cannot see any other alternative hoping to bring about a sustainable peace but a two state solution. Israel will oppose its removal totally from the West Bank but, as you point out, it is currently endangering burning through global good will.

Agree. If any of us can step back from the vitriol, we have to accept that the Palestinians are not going away, and locking them up will only lead to more of the same.

I don't know if a two state solution will work given the Palestinian desire for revenge, but it might work if israel did leave the west bank, free access to jordan and a buffer zone was created.

As for Gaza, IMO the only solution is for israel to stop the blockade and allow them free access to the rest of the world.

Otherwise it's the same conflict forever.

I don't know why netanyahu even imagines that "victory" in Gaza makes israel safe, given there are millions of Palestinians living outside israel/ Palestine/ Gaza.

Lets remember that the Irish opposed the English for 600 years,but even they were able to accept a truce.

[RanongCat]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Hamas members do not steer clear of civilian targets. Quite the opposite.

You know this how?

[RanongCat]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Hamas members do not steer clear of civilian targets. Quite the opposite.

So you prefer the blanket bombing option?

[Neeranam]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:05 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

 

America has been supporting dictators for decades ( eg Saddam when he was an American ally ).

Seems it's only dictators that are not backed by America that need to "pay a price".

 

Isn't America broke? How come they can just keep paying out to other countries when there are so many problems at home?

 

It's shennanigans like this from the W H that get people like Trump elected.

 

IMO the greatest farce is claiming that israel needs billions more to defeat a few Hamas fighters armed with rifles and RPGs. Is the israeli army so weak it needs billions of US $ to win?

Good post.

 

Biden is deparate for war, as he knows it's the only way he can be reelected.