China and Thailand should expedite building of the China-Thailand railway : Xi Jinping

[Spilornis]

Freight and HSR are two different products. Rail makes sense but there's few places in the world where it makes money.

Coal and ore railways over long distances work well. Same to some extent for grain. Hard to compete with ships simply because of the cost of maintaining the tracks.

HSR is way more complex and is driven by passenger traffic. Maximum distance is perhaps 4 hours before planes take over on the basis of cost and comfort.

Passenger rail from Singapore to Paris is a wonderful dream. I like it but..............

[Gknrd]

On 10/20/2023 at 7:19 AM, RabbitFoot said:

Usual western propaganda. Full of resentment.

I've been there. Train is great and is benefiting the country.

Period.

I spent 6 months touring Laos.  Less than a year ago.

The roads are un drivable, economy is in shambles.

The debt to China is killing that country. 

Everything in the malls are cheap Chinese copies. Of mostly western wear.

Everyone you talk to blames the government and the railway. Everyone I talked to said before the government got mixed up with China and the railway . The roads were 100% better , now they do not have the budget to fix them. Heavy trucks from China have decimated the roads and the rail system has decimated the economy.

Conclusion, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Period.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Gknrd

[Taboo2]

Yes, of course, because they want to eff Thailand in a similar manner that they have done to Laos and Cambodia and Burma.

 

It's over Johnny.

[Mavideol]

20 hours ago, mokwit said:

Economic colonialism. 

isn't China criticizing the USA for doing similar type investments 

[John Drake]

22 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

isn't China criticizing the USA for doing similar type investments 

One of the biggest investments the US makes in countries like Thailand is giving them privileged access to the US market. Last year, for example, Thailand enjoyed a $42 billion trade surplus with the US, while running a trade deficit with the China. Quite simply, this needs to end. Those market privileges were given to Thailand on the contingency that it would be a mainland SE Asian bulwark against communist/Chinese/Russian expansion into the region. Now, the region is completely in Chinese-Russian hands and Thailand is joining them. Frankly, there is nothing else that Thailand makes or produces that the US needs. It is in US interests, I think, to simply cut off the Thai pipeline and reroute all investments, development projects, and trade towards the Philippines, a country that has cultural, linguistic, political, religious, and military ties with the US. Thailand is a lost cause. Write it off.

Edited October 22, 2023 by John Drake

[Selatan]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

quote from your post "As said in the wiki article, China was not even involved in the beginning. It was the Canadians and the Danes that did the feasibility studies".

 

Did Denmark or Canada actually fund the port, or just do a feasibility study?

 

But WHO does Sri Lanka owe the money to? Denmark, Canada or the Chinese banks who actually provided the funds?

 

Who paid the loan off and now controls the port?

 

Denmark, Canada or China?

 

To which country did Sri Lanka default on the loan?

 

Denmark, Canada or China?

 

It does not matter whether China was involved in the beginning or not. What matters is which country provided the funds to rebuild the port.

But if it was a trap, someone must set it up. The Chinese obviously did not. They just lend the money because they have too much to lend.

 

It's like a real estate agent trying to sell you a very costly property. He doesn't care who you are going to borrow from. He is the initiator of the debt trap.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Selatan said:

But if it was a trap, someone must set it up. The Chinese obviously did not. They just lend the money because they have too much to lend.

 

It's like a real estate agent trying to sell you a very costly property. He doesn't care who you are going to borrow from. He is the initiator of the debt trap.

Did you read the other links? Or because 2 professors say one thing and many other people say something else, everybody else is wrong?

 

If you want to believe them , then by all means do so, and then take a look at reality and research to find out what happened in reality.

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, John Drake said:

One of the biggest investments the US makes in countries like Thailand is giving them privileged access to the US market. Last year, for example, Thailand enjoyed a $42 billion trade surplus with the US, while running a trade deficit with the China. Quite simply, this needs to end. Those market privileges were given to Thailand on the contingency that it would be a mainland SE Asian bulwark against communist/Chinese/Russian expansion into the region. Now, the region is completely in Chinese-Russian hands and Thailand is joining them. Frankly, there is nothing else that Thailand makes or produces that the US needs. It is in US interests, I think, to simply cut off the Thai pipeline and reroute all investments, development projects, and trade towards the Philippines, a country that has cultural, linguistic, political, religious, and military ties with the US. Thailand is a lost cause. Write it off.

as I said on another post, my opinion not advise I have no right to advise anybody, but my humble opinion if I were part of Thai government, would be to tread carefully with China, like treading with the devil, below are a couple of examples of people who dealt with China and they are regretting it

 

my point was that China criticizes the USA for helping countries claiming that such help has hidden loyalties on it making these countries subordinated to the USA, as u pointed out, the USA does helps some by allowing them to benefit for USA markets, China incorrectly pointed that out as they are the ones "pretending" to offer help but in no way those countries will have the privilege to access China markets, on the contrary they will become subordinated to China's will. high interest rates, could mention some in Africa and some in SEA, but one particularly comes to mind Sri Lanka and the amount of debt with China

Crisis-hit Sri Lanka asks China to restructure its debt

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59932551

In Sri Lanka, China's Building Spree Is Raising Questions About Sovereignty

Beijing has bankrolled infrastructure projects in dozens of countries as part of its Belt and Road Initiative, one of the biggest construction efforts in human history. The difference in Hambantota is that the Chinese state-owned operator physically took control of the port in late 2017 — on a 99-year lease — after the Sri Lankan government defaulted on its loans.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/13/784084567/in-sri-lanka-chinas-building-spree-is-raising-questions-about-sovereignty

 

A look back at China's infrastructure projects aiding Sri Lanka

https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202102/09/WS6022214ba31024ad0baa8528_1.html

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Mavideol

[RanongCat]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Did you read the other links? Or because 2 professors say one thing and many other people say something else, everybody else is wrong?

 

If you want to believe them , then by all means do so, and then take a look at reality and research to find out what happened in reality.

Who in Sri Lanka voicing objections to a debt to China as the source of the original loan?

There objections are about the corrupt Government processes that created the call for the  debt.

Outside criticism is based more on the fact the IMF initially missed the bus on obtaining their version of  "debt trap".

Recent events highlighting the entirety of Sri Lankan  debt involves China , India, AND the IMF in a restructuring negotiation.

Sri Lanka does not possess  massive natural resources to strip so the real issue is over preferential "foot in the door" geographical location which India  has been very  vocal about !

The reality is the geopolitical contest to garner, maintain or even create superior status used to belong to the US.

In the process of expanding an economic greed empire that got out of step with military military capacity for enforcement has resulted in a no real surprise rise in threat coupled  with similar  rise in voicing of resentment by injured players.

Historical events provide lessons that so often are not recognized while repeats of history are underway. They just become a comparative example of failure.

 

[RanongCat]

3 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

my point was that China criticizes the USA for helping countries claiming that such help has hidden loyalties on it making these countries subordinated to the USA, as u pointed out, the USA does helps some by allowing them to benefit for USA markets, China incorrectly pointed that out as they are the ones "pretending" to offer help but in no way those countries will have the privilege to access China markets, on the contrary they will become subordinated to China's will. high interest rates, could mention some in Africa and some in SEA, but one particularly comes to mind Sri Lanka and the amount of debt with China

Crisis-hit Sri Lanka asks China to restructure its debt

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59932551

In Sri Lanka, China's Building Spree Is Raising Questions About Sovereignty

Beijing has bankrolled infrastructure projects in dozens of countries as part of its Belt and Road Initiative, one of the biggest construction efforts in human history. The difference in Hambantota is that the Chinese state-owned operator physically took control of the port in late 2017 — on a 99-year lease — after the Sri Lankan government defaulted on its loans.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/13/784084567/in-sri-lanka-chinas-building-spree-is-raising-questions-about-sovereignty

 

A look back at China's infrastructure projects aiding Sri Lanka

https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202102/09/WS6022214ba31024ad0baa8528_1.html

 

 

Do  really believe that World Bank/ IMF  loans are not conditional in any way more than repayment ?

Did China do something to make Sri Lanka default? That  now it has leased the Port it  funded is  no more threatening than having preferential shipping access to as a condition of a loan.

[Mavideol]

On 10/21/2023 at 1:13 PM, RanongCat said:

Very true! The IMF and World Bank lend for infrastructure if built at all is over budget and inferior

China does it transparently.

China and transparency are 2 words that don't fit together.... transparency is not a Chinese way of doing business

[Mavideol]

7 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Do  really believe that World Bank/ IMF  loans are not conditional in any way more than repayment ?

Did China do something to make Sri Lanka default? That  now it has leased the Port it  funded is  no more threatening than having preferential shipping access to as a condition of a loan.

get updated, read my above links on the post to @John Drake  about the Sri Lanka/Chinese loans

Edited October 22, 2023 by Mavideol

[RanongCat]

6 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

China and transparency are 2 words that don't fit together.... transparency is not a Chinese way of doing business

You say

 

[RanongCat]

5 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

get updated, read my above links on the post to @John Drake  about the Sri Lanka/Chinese loans

Updated  as of  when ?

[RanongCat]

The fundamental difference  in conditions that apply to loans from the IMF  and China are  quite  basic.

Loans from China usually include an element of  involvement in the creation of physical infrastructure in various degrees which undeniably provides a percentage of financial and employment return to China. It also provides oversight and implementation of design  objectives as per stated reason for loans.

Loans via the IMF are often dependent on acceding to Governmental  controls guised  very often as resource management guarantees( asset stripping) and progressive increases in debt compensation for fiscal mismanagment. ( corruption)

[gearbox]

4 hours ago, John Drake said:

One of the biggest investments the US makes in countries like Thailand is giving them privileged access to the US market. Last year, for example, Thailand enjoyed a $42 billion trade surplus with the US, while running a trade deficit with the China. Quite simply, this needs to end. Those market privileges were given to Thailand on the contingency that it would be a mainland SE Asian bulwark against communist/Chinese/Russian expansion into the region. Now, the region is completely in Chinese-Russian hands and Thailand is joining them. Frankly, there is nothing else that Thailand makes or produces that the US needs. It is in US interests, I think, to simply cut off the Thai pipeline and reroute all investments, development projects, and trade towards the Philippines, a country that has cultural, linguistic, political, religious, and military ties with the US. Thailand is a lost cause. Write it off.

You can look at the trade from a different angle. The trade between Thailand and US is done by private companies based on rational decisions and profit expectations. If they can find more profit somewhere else, they would trade there. The tariffs affect that trade but partially, for example brisk trade with China continued even when Trump imposed extra tariffs.

 

The fact that Thailand has 42bn trade surplus means that the Thai importers don't see value in importing US goods. There is little that they can't find somewhere better and cheaper. If there was demand, there would have been imports.

 

Raising the tariffs for the Thai products won't make it any better for the US exporters.

[billd766]

47 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Who in Sri Lanka voicing objections to a debt to China as the source of the original loan?

There objections are about the corrupt Government processes that created the call for the  debt.

Outside criticism is based more on the fact the IMF initially missed the bus on obtaining their version of  "debt trap".

Recent events highlighting the entirety of Sri Lankan  debt involves China , India, AND the IMF in a restructuring negotiation.

Sri Lanka does not possess  massive natural resources to strip so the real issue is over preferential "foot in the door" geographical location which India  has been very  vocal about !

The reality is the geopolitical contest to garner, maintain or even create superior status used to belong to the US.

In the process of expanding an economic greed empire that got out of step with military military capacity for enforcement has resulted in a no real surprise rise in threat coupled  with similar  rise in voicing of resentment by injured players.

Historical events provide lessons that so often are not recognized while repeats of history are underway. They just become a comparative example of failure.

 

It is far too late to voice any objections now, as it now part of history,

 

Do you think that the fault lies with the IMF for not taking on the loan?

 

To quote from your post

 

"Historical events provide lessons that so often are not recognized while repeats of history are underway".

 

Historical events in Laos, Africa and Sri Lanka with China bear me out.

 

From who do you think Thailand will borrow the money? Bear in mind how much the  previous Thai governments have already borrowed, and how much Srettha has promised the the Thai people.

 

Now if this government borrows the money from Chinese banks and the project is built, what do you think will happen if a future government defaults on the loan?

 

Who will own the project then?  A short cut that is built and operating.

 

Another 2 ports for China, not to mention the HST link from China through Laos and Thailand, two ports in Thailand for them to operate from saving sailing time..

 

It of no real interest to me personally, as I am 79 and will most likely be dead before it is completed.  do however have a Thai wife and son who I care about very much and who will live here long after I am dead and gone.

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, Deserted said:

Thailand should build a high-speed rail network to Europe not China.

Why?

 

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

[brianthainess]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:20 PM, RabbitFoot said:

It's gonna be great. The train that China build in Laos is pretty amazing. Thailand could greatly benefit.

All those along the old overnight bus routes will now have hardly any income, bus drivers (the Best), crews. And now they owe money to China.

Thailand has the infrastructure just improve it use Thai companies why be in Debt More with China.

[Dogmatix]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:20 PM, RabbitFoot said:

It's gonna be great. The train that China build in Laos is pretty amazing. Thailand could greatly benefit.

But the Prayut govt, despite cosying up to China couldn't agree terms on the railway because China was far too greedy, treating Thailand like a desperate African country and wanting control of everything, including land alongside the rail tracks.

[Gknrd]

4 hours ago, Mavideol said:

China and transparency are 2 words that don't fit together.... transparency is not a Chinese way of doing business

People are slowly stopping the wealth transfer. Chinese economy is in shambles. No amount of slide of hand can save them at this point IMO. The stock market is a joke plain and simple. When they were booming western investment was crazy, with no transparency what so ever. Now, the Chinese stock market is all but dead to real investors. Only an idiot would invest in that mess. Common knowledge now, if you want to loose money invest in China. Thailand is heading that direction. 

Thailand is in step with China, wanting to suck up all the western investment possible and in return give nothing.

Look at the expat idiots that invest in property and homes in Thailand. What kind of moron gives all their money to a country with no rights what so ever and no ownership rights for land.. 

It's no wonder China and Thailand have such a dim view of western expats and investors. When idiots give their life savings with no thought. I mean, if a Chinese or Thai? , I agree with them. Westerners are idiots plain and simple. So ramp up the transfer. 

Problem is thankfully westerner's as dim as they are. Have started to wise up and have stopped the transfer.

Oh, and I am a westerner. 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Gknrd

[Selatan]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Did you read the other links? Or because 2 professors say one thing and many other people say something else, everybody else is wrong?

 

If you want to believe them , then by all means do so, and then take a look at reality and research to find out what happened in reality.

Everyone can have their opinions, I only look at facts and the 2 professors provided lots of facts. The fact here is that Sri Lanka got into financial trouble because of the costly sovereign bonds that it had issued, not because of the Hambantota port loan. 

Quote

Steep payments on international sovereign bonds, which comprised nearly 40 percent of the country’s external debt, put Sirisena’s government in dire fiscal straits almost immediately. When Sirisena took office, Sri Lanka owed more to Japan, the World Bank, and the Asian Development Bank than to China. Of the $4.5 billion in debt service Sri Lanka would pay in 2017, only 5 percent was because of Hambantota. The Central Bank governors under both Rajapaksa and Sirisena do not agree on much, but they both told us that Hambantota, and Chinese finance in general, was not the source of the country’s financial distress.

It is a well known fact that the huge bulk (90 to 95%) of the debts owed by developing countries around the world are to Western countries, Japan, the IMF and the World Bank but somehow China was highly demonized for its small share of ownership of the debts. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is going on - banks from other countries, especially Western ones, cannot stand the competition from China. 

[sscc]

The Thai favor and want the new rail system,  period. 

Thai Government is working towards this goal. 

 

Thailand could not build HSR themselves. 

Japan and China were the suppliers for such project in this region. 

 

Japan fumbled badly on HSR projects in India and Vietnam in last 5 years.

China was marching on completing project after project and surpassed and beaten out Japan nowadays in pricing and technology and timing. 

( Japan started in late 1960's ;  China started in early 2000's )  

 

[Mavideol]

19 hours ago, RanongCat said:

The fundamental difference  in conditions that apply to loans from the IMF  and China are  quite  basic.

Loans from China usually include an element of  involvement in the creation of physical infrastructure in various degrees which undeniably provides a percentage of financial and employment return to China. It also provides oversight and implementation of design  objectives as per stated reason for loans.

Loans via the IMF are often dependent on acceding to Governmental  controls guised  very often as resource management guarantees( asset stripping) and progressive increases in debt compensation for fiscal mismanagment. ( corruption)

Chinese propaganda and false promises of employment for locals, Chinese companies bring their own people/employees

[Mavideol]

19 hours ago, RanongCat said:

You say

 

unfortunately well informed by personal/business experiences, but u don't have to believe me, just keep up with your propaganda that's fine

[billd766]

2 hours ago, sscc said:

The Thai favor and want the new rail system,  period. 

Thai Government is working towards this goal. 

 

Thailand could not build HSR themselves. 

Japan and China were the suppliers for such project in this region. 

 

Japan fumbled badly on HSR projects in India and Vietnam in last 5 years.

China was marching on completing project after project and surpassed and beaten out Japan nowadays in pricing and technology and timing. 

( Japan started in late 1960's ;  China started in early 2000's )  

 

The SRT does not even cover 30% of Thailand and the HST will cover much less than that.

 

In addition to that the SRT Is already 230 Billion baht in debt and perhaps 50 years out of date.

 

Now they want to increase that debt by buying the HST made in China, instead of selling much of the surplus land that it owns and updating the existing system.

[John Drake]

19 hours ago, gearbox said:

You can look at the trade from a different angle. The trade between Thailand and US is done by private companies based on rational decisions and profit expectations. If they can find more profit somewhere else, they would trade there. The tariffs affect that trade but partially, for example brisk trade with China continued even when Trump imposed extra tariffs.

 

The fact that Thailand has 42bn trade surplus means that the Thai importers don't see value in importing US goods. There is little that they can't find somewhere better and cheaper. If there was demand, there would have been imports.

 

Raising the tariffs for the Thai products won't make it any better for the US exporters.

 

Quote

The fact that Thailand has 42bn trade surplus means that the Thai importers don't see value in importing US goods. There is little that they can't find somewhere better and cheaper. If there was demand, there would have been imports.

 

There is demand enough. That's why Thailand is involved in IP theft. How many billions of US dollars worth of IP theft is running on Thai computers and in Thai offices? How many ripoffs of brand names are being manufactured in Thailand? How many pirated videos, movies, and downloaded entertainment? 

[Burma Bill]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

Chinese propaganda and false promises of employment for locals, Chinese companies bring their own people/employees

Yes indeed. I wonder if these Chinese companies are owned by the Chinese Government and their employees are members of the Red Army in "civvies"??

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

Yes indeed. I wonder if these Chinese companies are owned by the Chinese Government and their employees are members of the Red Army in "civvies"??

correct, unfortunately in China any "big" company with international activities has to have a link/connections to somebody at the CCP....