Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Social Media]

 

Two weeks of non-stop western shuttle diplomacy appear to have reached the brink of failure since, as it stands, the west can only point to 20 aid trucks crossing into Gaza as the visible fruit of its labour. At the same time, Israel’s neighbours are taking to the streets and acts of terrorism are returning to the capitals of Europe.

With more than 4,000 Palestinians and 1,400 Israelis already dead, the only certainty is that Gaza’s depleted healthcare system will collapse if Israel launches a lengthy land invasion to wipe out Hamas.

 

The round of western diplomatic visits to Jerusalem had a dual purpose. They were public acts of solidarity in which the visit was the message, but there was also private questioning of the Israeli war cabinet, and what comes after an invasion.

 

n particular Joe Biden, for all the empathy that he showed to victims and the families of hostages, has been quite sharp in urging caution on Israel, though he was subtle in couching that counsel in terms of the lessons the US has taken from fighting terrorism.

Biden told Israel not to be consumed by rage as the US was after 9/11, saying: “While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.” In a stopover with reporters on the way back from Israel, he revealed the US military had discussed with the Israeli military whether an alternative to a ground assault was available. He said he had been blunt with Israel that its reputation was at stake. He relayed to reporters he had told the Israelis: “If you have an opportunity to alleviate the pain, you should do it. Period. And if you don’t, you’re going to lose credibility worldwide. And I think everyone understands that.” It was a version of the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken’s careful refrain to the Israelis that what you do matters, but so does how you do it.

Biden rested the judgment of his visit, the first by a US president to Israel in wartime, on the opening of the Rafah crossing, saying: “Had we gone and this failed, then, you know, the United States failed, Biden’s presidency fails, et cetera, which would be a legitimate criticism.”

 

FULL STORY

 

[thaibeachlovers]

I'm sure Biden's advisers will have informed him of the likely reaction from the world's Muslims, and especially of the Muslims in the US, if this situation ends up the way I suspect it will.

I fail to understand why he has not elected to use the tools available to him  to force netanyahu to call off the bombing, to send the army home and to let the aid trucks through.

This conflict has already spread to Lebanon and in due course every American abroad may be looking over their shoulder.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm sure Biden's advisers will have informed him of the likely reaction from the world's Muslims, and especially of the Muslims in the US, if this situation ends up the way I suspect it will.

I fail to understand why he has not elected to use the tools available to him  to force netanyahu to call off the bombing, to send the army home and to let the aid trucks through.

This conflict has already spread to Lebanon and in due course every American abroad may be looking over their shoulder.

American citizens were murdered and abducted. You think rewarding terrorist is a good policy?

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted. You think rewarding terrorist is a good policy?

Looking at his Ukraine opinion, yes he does.

[traveller101]

17 hours ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted. You think rewarding terrorist is a good policy?

Carpet bombing Gaza followed by an invasion to 'exterminate' Hamas with rather high and inevitable 'collateral damage' is the best reward for Terrorists.

Why?

It virtually guarantees a steady and growing supply of new recruits for generations to come.

Want proof?

Look no further than America's attempt and eventual success in achieving the stated goal of 'eliminating Al-Qaeda'.

And everybody lived happily thereafter if it were not for ISIS and other Terrorist organisations filling the vacuum with no shortage of new recruits and fanatic disciples filling their ranks.

[Skipalongcassidy]

Joe has been on the wrong end of every foreign policy for 5 decades... why would he change now.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, traveller101 said:

Carpet bombing Gaza followed by an invasion to 'exterminate' Hamas with rather high and inevitable 'collateral damage' is the best reward for Terrorists.

Why?

It virtually guarantees a steady and growing supply of new recruits for generations to come.

Want proof?

Look no further than America's attempt and eventual success in achieving the stated goal of 'eliminating Al-Qaeda'.

And everybody lived happily thereafter if it were not for ISIS and other Terrorist organisations filling the vacuum with no shortage of new recruits and fanatic disciples filling their ranks.

Did netanyahu mistake American support for invincibility? Did he think the world's Muslims would quietly accept the demise of Palestine and Palestinians?

One wonders what the plan is for when israelis are murdered abroad in revenge?

The "leaders" of the Arab countries may have been bought off by America and would have ignored the Palestinian tragedy, but the people in the street may have other ideas. Sisi would do well to remember what happened to a previous president that bent over too far to israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

Is Biden wondering how it all turned to <deleted> so fast? Facing defeat in the election by a big bombastic liar, a disaster on the southern border, no pliable congress to hand over billions to israel, protests against israel/ America in many countries, and now it looks like his "ally" in israel is making itself very unpopular in the region and America may have to go back to war there if a certain large country that hates America decides to do something about israel.

[mikeymike100]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted. You think rewarding terrorist is a good policy?

Good point!

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:21 PM, Social Media said:

Biden rested the judgment of his visit, the first by a US president to Israel in wartime, on the opening of the Rafah crossing, saying: “Had we gone and this failed, then, you know, the United States failed, Biden’s presidency fails, et cetera, which would be a legitimate criticism.”

38 trucks does not make a success. Apparently 100 trucks a DAY are needed to go in.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/22/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news

The United Nations said 14 more trucks carried aid into the enclave late Sunday as escalating clashes on Israel’s border with Lebanon and violence in the occupied West Bank raised fears the conflict could spill over.

[JBChiangRai]

Hamas bombs Israel

Israel bombs Gaza, a tiny fraction of 1% are Hamas

 

This is not an answer.  Israel should only go after Hamas, collateral damage of thousands of Palestinians can't be right, it sounds like a war crime to me.

 

Imagine a shooter kills people in a market and runs into a nearby bank containing 200 people, it would not be acceptable to kill everyone in the bank in order to kill the shooter, yet the analogy isn't far off.

 

A better man would not retaliate this way.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, traveller101 said:

Carpet bombing Gaza followed by an invasion to 'exterminate' Hamas with rather high and inevitable 'collateral damage' is the best reward for Terrorists.

Why?

It virtually guarantees a steady and growing supply of new recruits for generations to come.

Want proof?

Look no further than America's attempt and eventual success in achieving the stated goal of 'eliminating Al-Qaeda'.

And everybody lived happily thereafter if it were not for ISIS and other Terrorist organisations filling the vacuum with no shortage of new recruits and fanatic disciples filling their ranks.

 

There are similarities and differences between the situation Israel faces vs. Hamas, and The US/The West vs. AQ/ISIS.

 

To start with, it is indeed impossible to fully eradicate a  terrorist organization relying on religion, solid ideology and so on. The 'idea' remains, so to speak, and can be revived. But with that given in mind, it is certainly possible to render such a terrorist organization ineffectual, in disarray and posing less of a threat. This is by no means perfect - such organizations can revive, mutate, or be replaced by others. It's a question of choices - is the threat of letting them carry on greater than the 'costs' involved in crushing them (and whether conditions allow this)?

 

AQ and ISIS have been, relatively speaking, quiet - and for some time now. Sure, they could be reorganizing, a new outfit could be growing in the shadows etc. But there is a reprieve, of sorts.  And the alternative would have obviously been way worse.

 

AQ and ISIS were far bigger fish than Hamas, in terms of membership, funding, arms, capabilities and global reach. Also, working the global angle (as opposed to Hamas's local appeal and cause) gave them greater potential support. If crushing them was possible, then dealing with a smaller, weaker and much better known opponent should be doable.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:21 PM, Social Media said:

n particular Joe Biden, for all the empathy that he showed to victims and the families of hostages, has been quite sharp in urging caution on Israel,

Is biden so useless that he has to "urge" caution on them. Given that he has all the tools he needs to force israel to do his bidding, he could demand that israel does what he wants.

Just see if israel can survive without the US veto in the UN?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did netanyahu mistake American support for invincibility? Did he think the world's Muslims would quietly accept the demise of Palestine and Palestinians?

One wonders what the plan is for when israelis are murdered abroad in revenge?

The "leaders" of the Arab countries may have been bought off by America and would have ignored the Palestinian tragedy, but the people in the street may have other ideas. Sisi would do well to remember what happened to a previous president that bent over too far to israel.

 

For starters, there is no total 'demise' of Palestine and the Palestinians as you suggest. There's a war, and it's on a bigger scale than previous clashes, but it's not more than that. The Muslim world sustained a whole lot worse even in recent history - and that was with more popular victims than the Palestinians.

 

You keep banging on about the Arab/Muslim world as if the people are single minded drones that are only interested in one thing, that somehow fits your own views and bias. That's not the case.

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Hamas bombs Israel

Israel bombs Gaza, a tiny fraction of 1% are Hamas

 

This is not an answer.  Israel should only go after Hamas, collateral damage of thousands of Palestinians can't be right, it sounds like a war crime to me.

 

Imagine a shooter kills people in a market and runs into a nearby bank containing 200 people, it would not be acceptable to kill everyone in the bank in order to kill the shooter, yet the analogy isn't far off.

 

A better man would not retaliate this way.

 

Do you have any realistic ways dealing with the situation?

[newbee2022]

21 hours ago, Morch said:

American citizens were murdered and abducted. You think rewarding terrorist is a good policy?

You think, bombing is the ultimate solution as America did since WW2 without any success?

A ONE state solution for Palestinians and Israelis would have been a solution long time ago, since 1949.

Israel violates continuously International Law and refuses UN resolutions. It's terrible what happened last week, however expected once. Israel has to be forced for peace talks to live as a non western country in the middle east. Not as an American or western fortress.👍

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is biden so useless that he has to "urge" caution on them. Given that he has all the tools he needs to force israel to do his bidding, he could demand that israel does what he wants.

Just see if israel can survive without the US veto in the UN?

Biden doesn't have to see things your way, you know. Maybe you missed the word 'diplomacy' in the headline?

[Morch]

Just now, newbee2022 said:

You think, bombing is the ultimate solution as America did since WW2 without any success?

A ONE state solution for Palestinians and Israelis would have been a solution long time ago, since 1949.

Israel violates continuously International Law and refuses UN resolutions. It's terrible what happened last week, however expected once. Israel has to be forced for peace talks to live as a non western country in the middle east. Not as an American or western fortress.👍

 

I don't think the current bombing campaign is presented as an ultimate solution, but as preparation for ground assault. Not sure what you're on about.

 

Sure, a one-state-solution, with Israelis and Palestinians living happily ever after. That was never on the cards. Maybe you could provide some reference to other countries in the ME where this worked out alright?

 

No idea what you mean by 'live as a non western country' or why would anyone want that.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Do you have any realistic ways dealing with the situation?

Fortunately, it's not my decision to make.  But killing thousands of innocent Palestinians to rid Gaza of Hamas wouldn't be an option I would consider.

[nausea]

Giving carte blanche isn't diplomacy.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-president-emmanuel-macron-visit-israel-coming-days-2023-10-22/

French president Emmanuel Macron to visit Israel in coming days

 

That is one leader that has to be concerned about the reaction to israel's attack on Gaza, given the very large and very angry Muslim population in France.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, mikeymike100 said:

Good point!

Israeli forces abduct and kill Palestinians with appalling frequency with their raids into Palestinian areas.

Do they not count because they are only Palestinians?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-president-emmanuel-macron-visit-israel-coming-days-2023-10-22/

French president Emmanuel Macron to visit Israel in coming days

 

That is one leader that has to be concerned about the reaction to israel's attack on Gaza, given the very large and very angry Muslim population in France.

Nah not really.....

 

France banned protests in support of Palestine on October 12 and police have fired on the demonstrators who defied the order with tear gas and water cannon.

[mrmicbkktxl]

19 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

You think, bombing is the ultimate solution as America did since WW2 without any success?

A ONE state solution for Palestinians and Israelis would have been a solution long time ago, since 1949.

Israel violates continuously International Law and refuses UN resolutions. It's terrible what happened last week, however expected once. Israel has to be forced for peace talks to live as a non western country in the middle east. Not as an American or western fortress.👍

Are you living on a different planet?Hamas is made up of lunatics who want to kill Jews. When Israel gave the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, Hamas's thanked that with rocket fire. With the billions in aid money that it has now received from all over the world, Hamas did not build desalination plants to irrigate the country or electrical power plants to light it, no, it built tunnels and underground weapons factories . To do what? Right, to kill Jews. Hamas shows little consideration for its own population. It is setting up its rocket launch sites next to hospitals and kindergartens to prevent the Israelis from defending themself. Every now and then, like right now, they blow up their own hospital in order to blame the crime on the Israelis. They are currently firing their rockets at Israeli cities together with the Shiite Hezbollah militias from Lebanon and Syria. The goal? Killing Jews. The two-state solution had been offered to the Palestinians several times. They didn't it want. They want to kill all Israelis.Israel should wipe them from the planet and Lebanon too.Syria should watch very careful.Next on the list would be Qatar and Iran

[Purdey]

Palestinians seem to think the region belongs to them. Bloody cheek. After thousands of years of ownership why can't they accept that European Jews now own their land? 

A two state solution means they have to accept their land became someone else's in 1946.

[newbee2022]

9 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Palestinians seem to think the region belongs to them. Bloody cheek. After thousands of years of ownership why can't they accept that European Jews now own their land? 

A two state solution means they have to accept their land became someone else's in 1946.

And.....why not a ONE state solution? 

Or do you separate Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, Blacks, Asians in US?????😳

[Hanaguma]

12 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Palestinians seem to think the region belongs to them. Bloody cheek. After thousands of years of ownership why can't they accept that European Jews now own their land? 

A two state solution means they have to accept their land became someone else's in 1946.

that would be a great theory, but Palestinians HAVENT owned it for thousands of years. The Ottomans owned, the British owned it, hell even the Romans owned it. And guess what? There were Jews there all along too. Not like suddenly in 1946, shiploads of concentration camp survivors just randomly looked at a map, pointed, and said "let's go THERE". 

 

The Palestinians have nobody to blame but themselves, and the Arab League. They thought they could simply massacre all the Jews in 1948, and reclaim what they wanted. Fortunately they were wrong. And thus the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The same Arab League countries have refused to allow any civil or economic rights to the Palestinian refugees they begrudgingly host. One only needs to look at how other, civilized countries have treated Palestinians to see the stark contrast. 

[newbee2022]

2 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

Good point!

Bad point so far.

Who sows hate will reap hate! One million of Gaza children will grow up with this mantra. Israel is to make peace with it's neighbours as a Middle East country.😳

[newbee2022]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

that would be a great theory, but Palestinians HAVENT owned it for thousands of years. The Ottomans owned, the British owned it, hell even the Romans owned it. And guess what? There were Jews there all along too. Not like suddenly in 1946, shiploads of concentration camp survivors just randomly looked at a map, pointed, and said "let's go THERE". 

 

The Palestinians have nobody to blame but themselves, and the Arab League. They thought they could simply massacre all the Jews in 1948, and reclaim what they wanted. Fortunately they were wrong. And thus the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The same Arab League countries have refused to allow any civil or economic rights to the Palestinian refugees they begrudgingly host. One only needs to look at how other, civilized countries have treated Palestinians to see the stark contrast. 

Gosh, that is called disarray of history👎

[Purdey]

8 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

And.....why not a ONE state solution? 

Duh, because prior to 1946 there was just one state that belonged to Palestine.  What would one state be called? Greater Israel?