American Big Tech Has Enslaved Us . Europe is over

[Denim]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum. Mods move if so.

 

I have just listend to this discussion and found it very interesting . Others might also. Covers many of the issues we are grappling with today from the the economic standpoint ( good history on this ) to the rise of Trump and possible war with China.  I don't feel qualified to comment on any of this but anyone who does want to stick their boot in ....... knock yourselves out.

 

 

[save the frogs]

Not watching it.

Clickbait overly dramatic title and I've seen some videos with that guy Yanis.

He's smart, but I don't trust most of what he says.

 

[observer90210]

Not sure I would blindly agree with Capt. Star Trek.

[save the frogs]

video is too long. I don't have time to watch it.

but I watched the first couple of minutes.

he's talking about how we are moving towards the end of capitalism and into post-capitalism.

yes, it seems to be true. I've heard other people talk about that.

I met a guy who wrote a book about that. 

and the WEF motto "you will own nothing" alludes to some sort of post-capitalism.

but way too complex for me to get into now.

toodles. 

 

[Prubangboy]

Denim, thanks for the attempt at elevation here.

 

This guy is a poor speaker for his point that technology unduly concentrates wealth, resulting in social problems. If Grab takes 30% for the ride, that's a massive redistribution upwards to a tiny amount of people. (I tip my Grab driver 30% with this in mind).

 

The flip side is that a lot of Grab delivery people now have a job. But then wealth again concentrates between the class of people who own a motorcycle and those who don't. These various dislocations are now so extreme that they cannot be sorted out by the invisible hand of capitalism -so what to do?

 

I prefer the approach of the book, Capital In The 20th Century which more cuts directly to chase: When the rate of return for capital is greater than the overall rate of growth of the economy, money will only flow like gravity ever upwards. To change this, you need wealth taxes. 

 

You need to lower the rate of capital return so that all boats might rise. That's what rightward/centrist politics calls punishing wealth creators. It's not politically doable for at least the next 20 years.

 

 

[Wanderer555]

   Resistance is Futile,  You Will be Assimilated.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Wanderer555

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

Denim, thanks for the attempt at elevation here.

 

This guy is a poor speaker for his point that technology unduly concentrates wealth, resulting in social problems. If Grab takes 30% for the ride, that's a massive redistribution upwards to a tiny amount of people. (I tip my Grab driver 30% with this in mind).

 

The flip side is that a lot of Grab delivery people now have a job. But then wealth again concentrates between the class of people who own a motorcycle and those who don't. These various dislocations are now so extreme that they cannot be sorted out by the invisible hand of capitalism -so what to do?

 

I prefer the approach of the book, Capital In The 20th Century which more cuts directly to chase: When the rate of return for capital is greater than the overall rate of growth of the economy, money will only flow like gravity ever upwards. To change this, you need wealth taxes. 

 

You need to lower the rate of capital return so that all boats might rise. That's what rightward/centrist politics calls punishing wealth creators. It's not politically doable for at least the next 20 years.

 

 

In my OPINION, capitalism was invented to take over from religion and nobility as centers of wealth, but controlled by the same players.

It's worked exceedingly well given by how few have most of the wealth.

 

Only works because most people are sheeple, and eagerly follow the wolf in sheepskin.

Social media which is controlled by the mega rich has been an astounding success at shaping society ( look at how many who's lives are controlled by "influencers", surely the most vile of social control mechnisms ).

 

It's all a bit sad how many willingly give themselves to mammon in exchange for the proverbial bowl of porridge.

 

I don't know that it can even be fixed anymore.

 

 

To change this, you need wealth taxes. 

Given that the rich make the rules, does wealth tax have any chance of reality?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, save the frogs said:

video is too long. I don't have time to watch it.

but I watched the first couple of minutes.

he's talking about how we are moving towards the end of capitalism and into post-capitalism.

yes, it seems to be true. I've heard other people talk about that.

I met a guy who wrote a book about that. 

and the WEF motto "you will own nothing" alludes to some sort of post-capitalism.

but way too complex for me to get into now.

toodles. 

 

IMO tinkering with ideas such as "post capitalism" is BS promoted by the rich to keep the sheeple quiet as they continue to steal all the baubles.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Denim said:

Covers many of the issues we are grappling with today from the the economic standpoint ( good history on this ) to the rise of Trump

Many books can, and probably will, be written about the rise and fall of Trump.

But IMO it can most simply be described as millions looking at the shennanigans in Washington, and screaming "I'm mad as Hell and I'm not going to take this anymore" ( quote from Network 1976 ).

[2baht]

Video is longer than my attention span! 😴

[Prubangboy]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Given that the rich make the rules, does wealth tax have any chance of reality?

Yes, once dirt is shoveled on top of the last lifeless, boomer face.

 

And then, a massive wealth transfer to the Gen X'ers.

 

Will they be any more generous/enlightened?

 

Prob a bit. Like we are compared to our parents.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Prubangboy

[Walker88]

5 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

Denim, thanks for the attempt at elevation here.

 

This guy is a poor speaker for his point that technology unduly concentrates wealth, resulting in social problems. If Grab takes 30% for the ride, that's a massive redistribution upwards to a tiny amount of people. (I tip my Grab driver 30% with this in mind).

 

The flip side is that a lot of Grab delivery people now have a job. But then wealth again concentrates between the class of people who own a motorcycle and those who don't. These various dislocations are now so extreme that they cannot be sorted out by the invisible hand of capitalism -so what to do?

 

I prefer the approach of the book, Capital In The 20th Century which more cuts directly to chase: When the rate of return for capital is greater than the overall rate of growth of the economy, money will only flow like gravity ever upwards. To change this, you need wealth taxes. 

 

You need to lower the rate of capital return so that all boats might rise. That's what rightward/centrist politics calls punishing wealth creators. It's not politically doable for at least the next 20 years.

 

 

 

A few comments....

 

How do you implement a wealth tax? Cannot be done. Asset values fluctuate too wildly (just look at trump's NYC trial to understand the inexact or amorphous nature of asset values and the ability to make them whatever one wants). What is Elon Musk's Tesla stock worth? You cannot take closing price and apply that to all his shares, because if he had to liquidate, the price would tumble. Same with Bezos and his Amazon stock. On 19 October 1987, the Dow fell 23%. Wealth tax on what....something that can fall 23% in a single day?

 

What is a house in the Hamptons or Pebble Beach worth? Does the USG go by Zillow valuations?

 

Raising income or capital gains tax rates is more realistic.

 

Capital rates of return vs growth are not the real issue. The real issue is that increasingly labor is losing pricing power. Globalization started it, as low skill workers in advanced economies lost out to China, India, Bangladesh, etc. Technology is exacerbating the problem. AI will devastate labor markets. Society is going to be turned upside down.

 

A funny aside....those who want to make society more equal focus on corporations and corporate chieftains. What about the massive wealth in the hands of "artists", whether that's Tom Cruise, Taylor Swift or Damien Hirst? How does one measure their rate of return vs economic growth?

 

The bifurcation of wealth is only going to worsen, as markets award rare skill, celebrity, innovation, invention, or simply those who already having wealth. Most people are redundant or simply unnecessary.

 

I never made any kids. Why should I have to pay just because others might have been either biologically irresponsible, or else were egotistical enough to think the planet needed their gene pool? That is an entirely different part of this 'equality' thing. I don't make any kids, but my neighbors make ten, and expect me to send over some of my wealth to take care of what they popped out? Most kids are the result of mistakes or just plain horniness. Why must I pay for other's carnal pursuits?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Walker88

[FruitPudding]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In my OPINION, capitalism was invented to take over from religion and nobility as centers of wealth, but controlled by the same players.

 

Capitalism was born with the idea that if you paid the working man extra money, he would work extra hours, and increase productivity. 

 

It was a novel idea at the time.

 

Before that, they were expected to work extra for no overtime, almost like slaves, but that wasn't very productive. 

 

That's socialism/communism for you. Slavery!

 

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's worked exceedingly well given by how few have most of the wealth

 

Capitalism gives everyone a fair shot - and most importantly, freedom! - but you have to be financially literate, among other attributes. 

 

 

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

It's all a bit sad how many willingly give themselves to mammon in exchange for the proverbial bowl of porridge.

 

This doesn't sound like capitalism.  It sounds like socialism. 

 

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

To change this, you need wealth taxes. 

Given that the rich make the rules, does wealth tax have any chance of reality?

 

How will taxing the rich more make poor people any richer??

 

Rich people get taxed as much as 50% already. What more do you want?

 

You want the state to own everything??

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

 

Capitalism was born with the idea that if you paid the working man extra money, he would work extra hours, and increase productivity. 

 

It was a novel idea at the time.

 

Before that, they were expected to work extra for no overtime, almost like slaves, but that wasn't very productive. 

 

That's socialism/communism for you. Slavery!

 

 

Capitalism gives everyone a fair shot - and most importantly, freedom! - but you have to be financially literate, among other attributes. 

 

 

 

This doesn't sound like capitalism.  It sounds like socialism. 

 

 

How will taxing the rich more make poor people any richer??

 

Rich people get taxed as much as 50% already. What more do you want?

 

You want the state to own everything??

IMO there is no difference between capitalism and socialism ( the reality and not the theory )- in both systems a few get rich and the rest suck on coal.

 

To succeed in capitalism one has to have real money- money gets more money. Most are not and will never be financially literate.

 

I don't care about rich people. I never worked for a rich person.

No one needs more than 1 million $. Tax them 95% on everything over 1 million $ IMO.

 

You want the state to own everything??

Unlike you ( apparently ) I grew up in NZ where the government did own all the big industries- railways, buses, health, road works, universities and almost all schools, ferries, post office etc and it was waaaaay better than now after they sold everything to the capitalists that just want profit and to h**l with service.

So yes, I want the state to own everything, as capitalism sucks for anyone without loadsacash.

 

Also. I did live and work in a REAL socialist system for a year in Antarctica. We didn't get paid ( till we returned to "civilisation" ) and were given everything we needed in exchange for the work we did.

It was a great system, worked well and I'd like to live permanently in a system like that. Of course we didn't have any bludgers or criminals to worry about, so it might not work in "civilised" society which is chocka with bludgers and criminals.

[thaibeachlovers]

32 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

How do you implement a wealth tax? Cannot be done.

Yes it can.

Tax any luxury product that would only be bought by rich people 50%. Houses cost more to build or sold for more than 1 million $ add tax of 50%.

Car costs more than average eg Lexus, tax 50%.

Private plane or one of those superyachts, tax 99% for being a polluter.

 

 

Simplest wealth tax is capital gains tax, but the rich will never allow that to happen.

[thaibeachlovers]

39 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I never made any kids. Why should I have to pay just because others might have been either biologically irresponsible, or else were egotistical enough to think the planet needed their gene pool?

Agree 100%. People shouldn't have to pay anything for other people's brats. If they can't afford them, make abortion free on demand no questions asked.

Too many criminals breeding the next generation of criminals IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

47 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

A funny aside....those who want to make society more equal focus on corporations and corporate chieftains. What about the massive wealth in the hands of "artists", whether that's Tom Cruise, Taylor Swift or Damien Hirst? How does one measure their rate of return vs economic growth?

Their day is over. AI will make them all redundant, and good riddance to the overpaid egoists. I already prefer anime to live action movies and not a single actor to be seen in them. AI was already good enough to be realistic decades ago, and it's the way of the future for sure.

One of the Final Fantasy movies was the first to have realistic AI, but apparently it bankrupted the company that developed the computer program. However, the computer program lives on.

 

Anyway, once AI makes 80% of the population paupers, who will have any spare money to go see a movie ( especially at today's prices )?

 

( 80 % is a guess as I'm not psychic, and it could be even more ).

Edited October 31, 2023 by thaibeachlovers

[frantick]

Those "get off my lawn" kids, you know the ones paying these old guys' pensions. 

 

Sorry, old guy here too, but one who appreciates generations to come. Unfortunately, demographics will soon be in decline in most of the world. 

[Denim]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

I never made any kids. Why should I have to pay just because others might have been either biologically irresponsible, or else were egotistical enough to think the planet needed their gene pool? That is an entirely different part of this 'equality' thing. I don't make any kids, but my neighbors make ten, and expect me to send over some of my wealth to take care of what they popped out? Most kids are the result of mistakes or just plain horniness. Why must I pay for other's carnal pursuits?

 

 

I agree. When people make life decisions they alone should be responsible for them. There are people in the UK with many children , claiming benefits for each and every one. They have made procreation a full time career.

[Fortunateson]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

A few comments....

How do you implement a wealth tax? 

Can be implemented, Spain has a wealth tax

Edited October 31, 2023 by Fortunateson

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, FruitPudding said:

 

 

 

 

Capitalism gives everyone a fair shot - and most importantly, freedom! - but you have to be financially literate, among other attributes. 

 

How will taxing the rich more make poor people any richer??

 

Rich people get taxed as much as 50% already. What more do you want?

 

You want the state to own everything??

 

Capitalism works because it is based on incentive. Socialism and Communism---which also consolidate wealth into the hands of the few, usually self-appointed leaders---offers zero incentive. It goes against human nature.

 

Those who can't make it, usually because they lack the ambition to succeed and do the work it takes to succeed, don't like Capitalism. They want a free ride, or remuneration in excess of the value they add. Redistribute wealth, and those who have skill and can be productive lose their incentive, making all of society poorer.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Walker88

[Walker88]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Their day is over. AI will make them all redundant, and good riddance to the overpaid egoists. I already prefer anime to live action movies and not a single actor to be seen in them.

 

You sound bitter.

 

I might not think Kim Kardashian has even an ounce of talent, but I applaud her for marketing herself and making a fortune.

 

I'm not sure what 'overpaid' means in entertainment. Celebrities get what the market gives them. If teenyboppers want to make Taylor Swift a billionaire, more power to her. I have my favorites in Hollywood and sports, and I don't begrudge them their fortunes. I got pleasure watching Tom Brady play football, MJ playing basketball, or 'stars' like Gene Hackman....sometimes even Tom Cruise.

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes it can.

Tax any luxury product that would only be bought by rich people 50%. Houses cost more to build or sold for more than 1 million $ add tax of 50%.

Car costs more than average eg Lexus, tax 50%.

Private plane or one of those superyachts, tax 99% for being a polluter.

 

 

Simplest wealth tax is capital gains tax, but the rich will never allow that to happen.

We would call what you described an 'excise tax'.

 

Wealth is a moving target, a function of market moves, interest rates and a host of other things. I know there are, and have been, wealth taxes, but I think the concept is ripe for corruption and abuse.

 

I agree with you on tax rates and capital gain rates.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

You sound bitter.

 

I might not think Kim Kardashian has even an ounce of talent, but I applaud her for marketing herself and making a fortune.

 

I'm not sure what 'overpaid' means in entertainment. Celebrities get what the market gives them. If teenyboppers want to make Taylor Swift a billionaire, more power to her. I have my favorites in Hollywood and sports, and I don't begrudge them their fortunes. I got pleasure watching Tom Brady play football, MJ playing basketball, or 'stars' like Gene Hackman....sometimes even Tom Cruise.

 

 

Nurses save peoples lives and help sick people, but are valued less that tube drivers, and definitely less than actors ( or at least the celebrity ones ) is that fair? I think not, but in a capitalist system they would only get paid what they are worth if they go on strike, like the tube drivers do.

Think about that next time you or someone you love is in hospital.

 

I could have made big bucks driving a truck in the Aussie mines, but I thought it's be more worthwhile to help people so I didn't earn big bucks and worked my butt off as well.

Was it the right choice? NO, I should have gone for the big bucks, but it's too late to start over.

 

Bitter; perhaps.

If I'm bitter, it's because of the 2 false women that lied that they "loved" me, ripped me off and ruined me financially. Should have known better I suppose, but I was stupid and the power of the little head is strong.

 

[save the frogs]

<>

Edited October 31, 2023 by save the frogs

[zzaa09]

The end is near.....

 

😉

[Prubangboy]

20 hours ago, Walker88 said:

 

A few comments....

 

How do you implement a wealth tax? Cannot be done.

 

 

 

Agreed. I'm using Wealth Tax as a broad short hand for a range of ideas like Land Tax, new income tax bracket, ending offshore accounts, properly funding the tax collection arm of government.

 

All of them are problematic, but so is is 1500 a month for a studio in Bristol. I've been to Bristol. Bleak. And it's still in the South. It's grim up Norf. How long can they hold out with rents popping up 10% a year on their increasingly shorter leases?

 

This will be like civil rights, a multi-decade process. Like that one, it will divide the old from the young. The contempt the young have for us for our iPhone and latte-lecturing is now intractable and hard-wired. 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

Agreed. I'm using Wealth Tax as a broad short hand for a range of ideas like Land Tax, new income tax bracket, ending offshore accounts, properly funding the tax collection arm of government.

 

All of them are problematic, but so is is 1500 a month for a studio in Bristol. I've been to Bristol. Bleak. And it's still in the South. It's grim up Norf. How long can they hold out with rents popping up 10% a year on their increasingly shorter leases?

 

This will be like civil rights, a multi-decade process. Like that one, it will divide the old from the young. The contempt the young have for us for our iPhone and latte-lecturing is now intractable and hard-wired. 

 

 

 

 

Something unimaginable in the NZ of my youth is that hundreds of families would be living in motels and some even in cars. Sadly that is what happens when the government sells off most of the state housing, and allows rents to rise without restraint.

I was somewhat concerned a while back to learn that I was almost evicted to allow more profitable immigrant workers move in, especially as my next accommodation would have been my car. Luckily the workers went elsewhere.

[MrPancake]

Varoufakis... lol

His mother was a communist and his father a fascist.

That guy is a absolute moron.

Regulation in Europe is the best in the entire world when it comes to tech.