Netanyahu sets out uncompromising post war vision as Israel pounds Gaza

[CharlieH]

 

Intense Israeli airstrikes have continued in Gaza after the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, vowed to press Israel’s advance into the territory with “full force” and laid out an uncompromising vision of a postwar settlement.

The bombardment on Sunday appeared concentrated around al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, the biggest such facility in the territory, where much of the most intense fighting between Hamas and Israeli ground forces is taking place.

 

The hospital was “totally surrounded and bombardments are going on nearby”, its director, Mohammad Abu Salmiya, said in a statement late on Saturday.

The fierce clashes over recent days have trapped thousands of sick, wounded and displaced people in al-Shifa with no electricity and dwindling supplies.

Medics and aid workers have warned patients will die unless there is a pause in the battle. Thousands more are trapped in other health facilities in the north of Gaza as Israel’s campaign to “crush” Hamas moves towards its sixth week.

Despite growing pressure from even staunch allies, Netanyahu has so far rejected international calls for a ceasefire. “The war against [Hamas] is advancing with full force, and it has one goal: to win. There is no alternative to victory,” he said late on Saturday in televised comments.

Netanyahu also made clear he wanted Israel to retain overall security control after any conflict “with the ability to go in whenever we want in order to kill terrorists”.

“There will be no Hamas. There will be no civilian authority that educates their children to hate Israel, to kill Israelis, to destroy the state of Israel. There can’t be an authority there that pays the families of murderers. There needs to be something else there,” he said.

The comments appeared to rule out any role for the Palestinian Authority after the conflict, a solution favoured by the US and many European powers.

Israel has said doctors, patients and thousands of evacuees who have taken refuge at hospitals in northern Gaza must leave so it can tackle Hamas gunmen who, it says, have placed command centres under and around them.

Hamas denies using hospitals this way. Medical staff say patients could die if they are moved and Palestinian officials say Israeli fire makes it dangerous for others to leave.

Israel believes that Hamas has its headquarters beneath al-Shifa, claims which the hospital and Hamas have denied.

 

FULL STORY

 

[Morch]

Netanyahu says a lot of things. Then backtracks, ignores them, or claims he meant something else. This is reflected by how his statements are received at home and abroad. Just to remind (again) - back in 2008, Netanyahu ran for office under the slogan of dismantling Hamas rule in the Gaza Strip. It was good stuff for his voter base. In effect, the opposite happened.

 

What's happening now is that Netanyahu is already gearing up for the post-war aftermath - part of it is bolstering a 'strong leader' image, part already framing things so that he could claim future backtracking a result of unavoidable pressures by other parties and outside powers.

 

While it's obvious any post-war arrangements would include enhanced means to support Israel's security - it's way to early to assess how things will pan out. Another angle from which his words could be considered is setting up a bargaining  position for future talks on these matters. 

[candide]

6 hours ago, CharlieH said:

The comments appeared to rule out any role for the Palestinian Authority after the conflict, a solution favoured by the US and many European powers.

Same strategy as before. Divide to rule and make sure there isn't a single interlocutor representing all Palestinians, how rotten the PA may be.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 1:58 PM, CharlieH said:

Netanyahu also made clear he wanted Israel to retain overall security control after any conflict “with the ability to go in whenever we want in order to kill terrorists”.

“with the ability to go in whenever we want in order to kill terrorists”. ie anyone that the israelis don't like. They arrest children for posting on social media now, so no telling how far they will go if the international community doesn't stop them. Sadly, I think that when the bombing stops, the world will go back to ignoring the plight of the Palestinians.

 

What a rotten world we live in. Makes me ashamed to be a human, the most vile species on the planet.

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:24 AM, Morch said:

Netanyahu says a lot of things. Then backtracks, ignores them, or claims he meant something else. This is reflected by how his statements are received at home and abroad. Just to remind (again) - back in 2008, Netanyahu ran for office under the slogan of dismantling Hamas rule in the Gaza Strip. It was good stuff for his voter base. In effect, the opposite happened.

 

What's happening now is that Netanyahu is already gearing up for the post-war aftermath - part of it is bolstering a 'strong leader' image, part already framing things so that he could claim future backtracking a result of unavoidable pressures by other parties and outside powers.

 

While it's obvious any post-war arrangements would include enhanced means to support Israel's security - it's way to early to assess how things will pan out. Another angle from which his words could be considered is setting up a bargaining  position for future talks on these matters. 

Some people have dismissed certain incindiary calls by Israeli ministers as being unimportant because the people were relatively minor characters. I don't think it's so easy to dismiss when it's Netanyahu engaged in making the calls"

 

"Among other things that Netanyahu says is this:

“You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible — we do remember,” said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, referring to the ancient enemy of the Israelites, in scripture interpreted by scholars as a call to exterminate their “men and women, children and infants.”

https://archive.ph/Dd9El

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Lest anybody think the NY Times is unfairly spinning that comment:

To Remember and Destroy

The Torah lists two mitzvahs regarding Amalek:

1. To obliterate the nation of Amalek (timcheh et zecher Amalek).
2. To never forget the evil deeds Amalek did (zechor al tishkach).9

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3942715/jewish/Who-Were-Amalek-and-the-Amalekites.htm

 

 

 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Some people have dismissed certain incindiary calls by Israeli ministers as being unimportant because the people were relatively minor characters. I don't think it's so easy to dismiss when it's Netanyahu engaged in making the calls"

 

"Among other things that Netanyahu says is this:

“You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible — we do remember,” said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, referring to the ancient enemy of the Israelites, in scripture interpreted by scholars as a call to exterminate their “men and women, children and infants.”

https://archive.ph/Dd9El

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Lest anybody think the NY Times is unfairly spinning that comment:

To Remember and Destroy

The Torah lists two mitzvahs regarding Amalek:

1. To obliterate the nation of Amalek (timcheh et zecher Amalek).
2. To never forget the evil deeds Amalek did (zechor al tishkach).9

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3942715/jewish/Who-Were-Amalek-and-the-Amalekites.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Netanyahu's 2008 election campaign slogan was 'dismantle Hamas rule'. I think we know how that went and what he actually did. What those ministers' statements indicate is more to do with Netanyahu's (relative) loss of political control. Members of coalition partners realizing he won't dare to fire them, and his own party members starting to hedge for the day after.

 

Most of the fiery talk is intended for his loyalist voter base. Got to keep that 'Mr. Security', 'Protector of Israel' image alive.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Netanyahu's 2008 election campaign slogan was 'dismantle Hamas rule'. I think we know how that went and what he actually did. What those ministers' statements indicate is more to do with Netanyahu's (relative) loss of political control. Members of coalition partners realizing he won't dare to fire them, and his own party members starting to hedge for the day after.

 

Most of the fiery talk is intended for his loyalist voter base. Got to keep that 'Mr. Security', 'Protector of Israel' image alive.

 

But the fact is that Netanyahu is not a minor player. And what he says matters. What about the effect it's going to have on already enraged Israelis? And particularly on Israeli soldiers now fighting in Gaza?

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

But the fact is that Netanyahu is not a minor player. And what he says matters. What about the effect it's going to have on already enraged Israelis? And particularly on Israeli soldiers now fighting in Gaza?

 

Right now, Netanyahu's popularity is at a low. So most of what he says manages to outrage and upset many Israelis, day in day out. I don't think anyone outside of his voter base takes him seriously, or does not think he's in election campaign mode. As far as I understand, soldiers in Gaza have little by way of off-duty communication with Israel. Israeli reporters doing stories from the front often relay that the troops are behind on what's going on back home.

 

The thing to watch is not what he says, but what he does.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Right now, Netanyahu's popularity is at a low. So most of what he says manages to outrage and upset many Israelis, day in day out. I don't think anyone outside of his voter base takes him seriously, or does not think he's in election campaign mode. As far as I understand, soldiers in Gaza have little by way of off-duty communication with Israel. Israeli reporters doing stories from the front often relay that the troops are behind on what's going on back home.

 

The thing to watch is not what he says, but what he does.

Netanyahu is saying what he's saying to regain popularity. Stoking Israeli anger is his way of going about it. As the headline of the Times article says:

 

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel
Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing once-taboo ideas such as the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

 

It's living in denial to maintain that such language is about outraging Israeli public opinion. As the article goes on to note:

"The cumulative effect, experts say, has been to normalize public discussion of ideas that would have been considered off limits before Oct. 7: talk of “erasing” the people of Gaza, ethnic cleansing, and the nuclear annihilation of the territory."

https://archive.ph/Dd9El

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

[Morch]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Netanyahu is saying what he's saying to regain popularity. Stoking Israeli anger is his way of going about it. As the headline of the Times article says:

 

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel
Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing once-taboo ideas such as the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

 

It's living in denial to maintain that such language is about outraging Israeli public opinion. As the article goes on to note:

"The cumulative effect, experts say, has been to normalize public discussion of ideas that would have been considered off limits before Oct. 7: talk of “erasing” the people of Gaza, ethnic cleansing, and the nuclear annihilation of the territory."

https://archive.ph/Dd9El

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Not to regain popularity so much as hanging on to what he's got, IMO.  I don't think the anger needs much stoking, or that Netnayahu's words carry much appeal in this regard. To the extent that people care about what politicians say and be motivated by it - I think that there are others who are currently more influential in this regard. Both on the extreme right and the center.

 

But to repeat - the anger is there. And I don't think it's even solely directed at Hamas, Gaza or the Palestinians. A whole lot of this rage is vs. politicians. The ones doing the 'stoking'? I don't think it will do them much favors down the line.