Payment of income tax under Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code

[jacob29]

14 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

The new LTR 10-year visas are very useful and easy to get if you meet the requirements. With one the current tax situation is a moot point.

Based on the current Royal decree 743 this is true, but there seems uncertainty around whether this might change next year. The decree explicitly cites revenue codes that will either change, or no longer exist - it may need to be amended on the basis that the sections of revenue code it cites no longer exist.

 

The LTR visa cites the tax exemption as bringing income one year after it was earned, to be exempt. Which always seemed a bit odd, as it is the same perk anyone else has, it's not unique to the LTR visa. Which is what makes me suspect the LTR visa conditions (for newly issued ones at least) will be changed.

[The Cyclist]

16 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Unintended consequences  Unintended consequences - Wikipedia

 

 

Not sure why you are firing a wiki article about unintended consequences at me for.

 

I know what unintended consequences are.

 

I also know that this new interpretation of the rules is OECD led and is designed to stop people using loopholes that means that they avoid paying tax.

 

In general it is not going to affect people who are already paying tax on incomes remitted to Thailand after 01 Jan 2024.

 

Nor will it affect people who are covered by a DTA, other than perhaps getting off their asses and

 

1. Getting a TIN.

 

2 Filing an annual Nil tax return.

 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Not sure why you are firing a wiki article about unintended consequences at me for.

That is OK - keep reading.

 

I know what unintended consequences are.

Good the hear - I am saying that is would could happen.

 

I also know that this new interpretation of the rules is OECD led and is designed to stop people using loopholes that means that they avoid paying tax.

Yes that is true - Thailand has done this and other measures to both their banking and taxation rules, to comply with international rules regarding the movement of money (to stop money laundering, terrorism, etc etc)

 

In general it is not going to affect people who are already paying tax on incomes remitted to Thailand after 01 Jan 2024.

That is your opinion on what is going to happen - that is not a fact.

 

Nor will it affect people who are covered by a DTA, other than perhaps getting off their asses and

That is your opinion on what is going to happen - that is not a fact.

 

1. Getting a TIN.

2 Filing an annual Nil tax return.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

Quote

Yes that is true

 

Yes, I know it is true, that is why I typed it.

 

Quote

That is your opinion on what is going to happen - that is not a fact.

 

Yes, of course it is my opinion and not a fact. However my opinion will be a damn sight closer to fact  than over a 1000 posts of utter garbage and doom and gloom that has been posted over multiple threads 

 

@TroubleandGrumpy being a large contributor to that utter garbage and doom and gloom.

[Mike Lister]

51 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

 

There was no deal stipulating these conditions would never change, and it's a little bit absurd that you seem to think that's how things should work. In fact it's insanity to think the expat population should block domestic policies targeted to Thais - as they certainly can't introduce this legislation for Thai nationals while exempting foreigners.

 

If your plan is to stay under 180 days in all countries - that's fine, and you can still do that in Thailand. You wouldn't actually be leaving Thailand, just spending less time here. You were implying you were headed to some other country you could become a tax resident in, and not pay tax on worldwide income. There are still some places you can do that, but by and large you wouldn't want to live there.

Nobody suggested that things would not or could not ever change, but if they do, the terms under which I came here in the first place will also change hence the deal between us, mo matter how informal, is off. Are you getting it yet!

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, beammeup said:

This gifting thing needs clarification, my understanding is that when you send the money you will be taxed but she is not liable for tax. You will be remitting the money so you pay tax.??

I would send the money from your overseas account directly to the Wife. so it could become Tax assessable for her, but if it's declared as a Gift there should be no tax to pay. 

 

If you send it to yourself then you could be liable for Tax on it, whether you can then transfer it to her & negate this tax remains to be seen. 

 

Some good points made about IHT, in the UK, normally everything you leave to your Wife wouldn't incur any tax, however this might not apply if you're married to a non-UK citizen, I'm not married so have never looked into it. 

[TravelerEastWest]

2 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Based on the current Royal decree 743 this is true, but there seems uncertainty around whether this might change next year. The decree explicitly cites revenue codes that will either change, or no longer exist - it may need to be amended on the basis that the sections of revenue code it cites no longer exist.

 

The LTR visa cites the tax exemption as bringing income one year after it was earned, to be exempt. Which always seemed a bit odd, as it is the same perk anyone else has, it's not unique to the LTR visa. Which is what makes me suspect the LTR visa conditions (for newly issued ones at least) will be changed.

I am comfortable that the tax advantage is also for current year income based on a conversation at the BOI office with a manager. She was 100% certain. But as an added level of safety I will use money that is one year plus old...

 

What happens in the future no-one can say for sure...

[daveAustin]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:44 PM, Neeranam said:

Interesting.

I can buy Bitcoin and top up my crypto.com, or Revolut card and buy gold in Thailand. I could also get a WISE card I think.

I can sell my Bitcoin P2P on crypto exchanges, getting Thai baht sent to my Thai bank accounts.

There are so many different ways.  

Are WISE, Revolut, actual banks that the Thais can ask for details?

Alt season is coming!

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Based on the current Royal decree 743 this is true, but there seems uncertainty around whether this might change next year. The decree explicitly cites revenue codes that will either change, or no longer exist - it may need to be amended on the basis that the sections of revenue code it cites no longer exist.

 

The LTR visa cites the tax exemption as bringing income one year after it was earned, to be exempt. Which always seemed a bit odd, as it is the same perk anyone else has, it's not unique to the LTR visa. Which is what makes me suspect the LTR visa conditions (for newly issued ones at least) will be changed.

 

An interesting point. Certainly the English translation of Royal Decree 743 appears to give exemption to income generated in the previous tax year only - income generated in tax years prior to that being already exempted under the previous interpretation.  Because Thai has no definite or indefinite articles or singulars or plurals the Thai just says "in previous tax year" which is ambivalent and is the reason that it is open to various interpretations in the tax code.  Whether in future other tax years after 2024 but the immediately prior tax year are included n 743 probably needs to be ruled on by the Tax Court. 

 

If the Revenue Code is amended to legislate the RD's as yet unilateral reinterpretation that is technically not binding on taxpayers, things could either way for 743.  Parliament could amend 743 or incorporate it into the Revenue Code clarifying that all prior tax years are exempted, or it could include it in a list of prior legislation that is repealed.  The LTR programme was a brainchild of the previous uncle parties government, whereas the Elite card from the first Thaksin government.  Since the uncle parties are unlikely to ever regain power, the LTR project will not have any champions in government, unless another party adopts this orphan.

[jacob29]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:48 AM, Mike Lister said:

Nobody suggested that things would not or could not ever change, but if they do, the terms under which I came here in the first place will also change hence the deal between us, mo matter how informal, is off. Are you getting it yet!

No, I don't get how that relates to your original post. Nobody much cares how you or I personally respond to these changes, that's a personal decision for which there is no right or wrong answer.

 

What I'm addressing is how you seem to be painting Thailand as a now unfavorable destination based on tax status, when it's simply being aligned with most other countries - and what's more, it still has significant advantages over taxation on worldwide income. Not being taxed on money that is left abroad, can be a massive benefit over countries that simply tax regardless of remittance.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, jacob29 said:

No, I don't get how that relates to your original post. Nobody much cares how you or I personally respond to these changes, that's a personal decision for which there is no right or wrong answer.

 

What I'm addressing is how you seem to be painting Thailand as a now unfavorable destination based on tax status, when it's simply being aligned with most other countries - and what's more, it still has significant advantages over taxation on worldwide income. Not being taxed on money that is left abroad, can be a massive benefit over countries that simply tax regardless of remittance.

 

 

 

 

I can only explain it to you, I can't understand it for you. We're done here. Byee.

[ChrisParis75]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:15 AM, The Cyclist said:

Nor will it affect people who are covered by a DTA, other than perhaps getting off their asses and

1. Getting a TIN.

2 Filing an annual Nil tax return.

 

It's important to debunk the idea "Double taxation agreement = no problem".

 

Because it's false.

 

I give you a real exemple. 

 

A Thai tax resident who receives dividends from a company located in France... will pay automatically income tax of 12,8 % (to the french tax department).

 

Yes, it's a flat rate (he could opt for variable rate, but it's another debate).

 

(reminder : for the flat rate, a french tax resident... will pay 30 % on the same dividends, because he has 17,2 % of social security taxes added on top).

 

So according to you, there is indeed a DTA between France and Thailand, and taxes have been ALREADY PAID (to the frenchs). So everything is okay.

 

It's not.

 

The franco-thai DTA says (article 23, 2 B) : 

 

Thailand grants a resident of Thailand receiving such income [dividends] from French sources a chargeable credit against Thai tax. This credit is based on the amount of tax paid on France, but it cannot exceed the fraction of the Thai tax corresponding to the ratio existing between the net income from French sources and the overall net income liable to Thai tax.

 

In other words... sure the thai tax department will give you a "tax credit" (of the amount paid to the french)... but can tell you TO PAY MORE (aka 35 % - 12,8 %, in case of dividends higher than 4 millions THB).

 

References : the DTA

https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/media/10_conventions/thailande/thailande_convention-avec-la-thailande_fd_1970.pdf

 

The thai tax rates :

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

Let's sink that : a DTA is designed to avoid to tax 2 TIMES.. THE SAME AMOUNT... But that doesn't mean that one of the 2 states could not tax MORE ! ;-)

 

And rates can vary greatly between countries, and type of income, amount of income etc.

 

So again, a DTA is not the iron clad guarantee that everything is and will be okay.

 

Each individual must assess precisely his situation.

 

The rule-loophole of "year + 1" (for the money coming into Thailand) was a blessing (for the case I've described, the thai resident with french dividends).

 

But now the party is over (if they succeed to close this loophole or if they don't change their mind).

Edited November 30, 2023 by ChrisParis75

[The Cyclist]

33 minutes ago, ChrisParis75 said:

It's important to debunk the idea "Double taxation agreement = no problem".

 

It might become false when the Thai Government / RD clarifies the paragraph in the original announcement that stated - and I paraphrase, but it has been posted verbatum across various threads.

 

" People from Countries that have an existing DTA with Thailand will be exempt "

 

Individuals are free to read into that what they will. For me the meaning is absolutely crystal clear.

 

I am not French, therefore not really interested in the France / Thai DTA or the tax implications.

 

40 minutes ago, ChrisParis75 said:

But now the party is over (if they succeed to close this loophole or if they don't change their mind).

 

Indeed it will be. And as I have said on many occassions, the only expats who will probably be caught up are expats that have been using loopholes.