Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Addressing the Doha Forum, Ayman Safadi says Israel’s operation in Gaza meets the ‘legal definition of genocide’.

 

Jordan’s foreign minister says Israel aiming ‘to empty Gaza of its people’

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/jordan-foreign-minister-says-israel-aiming-to-empty-gaza-of-its-people

 

@Neeranam

 

He's the Jordanian Foreign Minister. Not known for soft words when it comes to Israel on a good day, so not surprising. Also, with most of Jordan's population being Palestinians, government and heads of state need to tread carefully.

 

As an aside, while he's Druze, his surname indicates roots to Safed, an old town in northern Israel. Same place the PA's Abbas's family hailed from. Don't know if there's a similar history, but if so, it could certainly paint his views in a certain manner.

 

Regardless, what he says is not true.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

Do you have any credible evidence that some of the people in Gaza are not pro Hamas?

 

Do yo have any clue as to the background, history, facts, politics of what's going on?

Do you know any country/region where the people act like a hive mind?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

How many Palestinians do you think imagine that Israel might pursue a 2 state solution, stop the settlements even as a starting point were they to surrender?

 

This is not about the Palestinians surrendering, but about Hamas leadership doing so.

Also, it wasn't claimed that such a surrender would lead to a two-state solution or stop the illegal settlement effort.

This is and was in the context of the current fighting in the Gaza Strip.

Again, your questions make no sense.

[Hanaguma]

The obvious answer is that, in order for Palestine to be free, the Jews have to go. Either murdered (most likely option) or forcibly exiled. Which makes the "river to the sea" nonsense so reprehensible.  Two state solution might be viable in 10 or 20 years, once Hamas is gone and Gazans can be de-programmed from the antisemitic filth they have been force fed for the past decade. 

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Gazans can be de-programmed from the antisemitic filth they have been force fed for the past decade. 

Do you think how they have been treated by the Israelis could have affected how they feel towards them?

Occupation, Apartheid, Ethnic Cleansing, etc

[Hanaguma]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think how they have been treated by the Israelis could have affected how they feel towards them?

Occupation, Apartheid, Ethnic Cleansing, etc

You forgot "genocide" to complete the three necessary shibboleths for this discussion.  Otherwise, there is no apartheid in Gaza, no ethnic cleansing, and no occupation (ended in 2005).

After WW2, the Allies did a massive de-Nazification program on Germany, to cure them of 13 years of Hitler's propaganda and lies. And the German people certainly could have felt hostile to the Allies for devastating their country as well. But they were able to shake it off and rejoin the community of nations.

 

It will take the same effort on Gaza to help them recover from Hamas.

[Morch]

Israel's problem is that ticking clock.

 

From a military point of view, given enough time, ousting the Hamas, or making a way lesser threat is doable. But as assessments indicated, this could take much longer than either politicians convey in statements, or the USA willing to afford. Also, it depends on what falls under the 'defeat' label, can mean a whole lot of different things.

 

There's a whole lot of talk about 'the day after', but that's usually done in the context of assuming Hamas is defeated, hostage situation resolved one way or another. But what if it doesn't come to that? What if Israel does not get a carte blanche?

 

I'm not sure how such a situation will play out. Even if the USA withdraws support, it will hardly be in some hostile manner. How would the new situation be explained, publicly? How could it be sustained, from a military and political point of view? What of the hostages? There are no clear, or good answers on that. A whole lot of factors involved. Just food for thought now.

 

IMO, under such circumstances, if the current Hamas leadership survives this (literally and politically), and/or even if Hamas maintains power in the Gaza Strip - it's just a question of time before things will flare up again. There will be no 'day after' peace negotiations. Not with the current Hamas leadership involved, at least (and given Hamas needs to be onboard, no serious headway expected anyway). There will be no 'day after' two-state solution, and the international pressure on Israel to go there would be brushed off on these grounds.

 

Years back, last time Israel went into the Gaza Strip, I posted pretty much the same on the forum. Essentially, for things to have a chance of being resolved, it is better for the Palestinian cause that Hamas be defeated.

[Bkk Brian]

Not so long ago the Hamas supporters here were praising how well Hamas were looking after the hostages after a few staged releases with smiles under duress. Remember

 

I presume they've now read the latest statement from Hamas, they will kill all remaining hostages unless all their demands are met..........

 

A reminder of these barbarians below................

 

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1730360102450762198

 

Why do I not see you demanding Hamas release them right now and put an end to this war?

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

You forgot "genocide" to complete the three necessary shibboleths for this discussion.  Otherwise, there is no apartheid in Gaza, no ethnic cleansing, and no occupation (ended in 2005).

After WW2, the Allies did a massive de-Nazification program on Germany, to cure them of 13 years of Hitler's propaganda and lies. And the German people certainly could have felt hostile to the Allies for devastating their country as well. But they were able to shake it off and rejoin the community of nations.

 

It will take the same effort on Gaza to help them recover from Hamas.

Firstly, suggesting that the situation in Germany is similar to the one in Palestine is wrong. The Nazi party didn't start because they were being occupied.  Sure, there was propaganda, but there is as much of that in Israel and Palestine.

Secondly, I never mentioned Genocide as there is no Genocide yet by Israel, although I suspect most there would welcome it.

There is a risk of Genocide but..

Experts don't agree with you -

Quote

  They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’

Here is a UN expert saying so: -

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against

 

You say there is no Apartheid in Gaza, this is a weird thing to say  -  how many Israelis do you think live, or want to live in this prison(unless they can somehow force them to leve!!)?

You really think there is no Aparheid in Israel?

Maybe you disagree with Amnesty INternational.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

 

Ethnic cleansing -  anyone , unless Israeli can see there is Ethnic Cleansing going on,

https://www.newarab.com/opinion/ethnic-cleansing-central-goal-israels-aggression

 

This is not about being pro Israel or Palestine, this is about standing up for humanity.

 

 

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Even if the USA withdraws support

Come on man, you know that will never happen, they habe a vested interest.

[Morch]

18 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Firstly, suggesting that the situation in Germany is similar to the one in Palestine is wrong. The Nazi party didn't start because they were being occupied.  Sure, there was propaganda, but there is as much of that in Israel and Palestine.

Secondly, I never mentioned Genocide as there is no Genocide yet by Israel, although I suspect most there would welcome it.

There is a risk of Genocide but..

Experts don't agree with you -

Here is a UN expert saying so: -

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against

 

You say there is no Apartheid in Gaza, this is a weird thing to say  -  how many Israelis do you think live, or want to live in this prison(unless they can somehow force them to leve!!)?

You really think there is no Aparheid in Israel?

Maybe you disagree with Amnesty INternational.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

 

Ethnic cleansing -  anyone , unless Israeli can see there is Ethnic Cleansing going on,

https://www.newarab.com/opinion/ethnic-cleansing-central-goal-israels-aggression

 

This is not about being pro Israel or Palestine, this is about standing up for humanity.

 

 

 

 

 

How does this 'standing up for humanity' fit with the Hamas attack on 7/10? Hamas actions since? Hamas knowingly and intentionally placing the people of Gaza in harm's way? Denying them shelter, even? Stealing supplies meant for civilians? Referring to them as 'necessary sacrifices'?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Come on man, you know that will never happen, they habe a vested interest.

 

@Neeranam

 

I do not know that. I know that you claim so.

You do not discuss what 'vested interest' is involved, even.

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not so long ago the Hamas supporters here were praising how well Hamas were looking after the hostages after a few staged releases with smiles under duress. Remember @Neeranam? 

 

I presume they've now read the latest statement from Hamas, they will kill all remaining hostages unless all their demands are met..........

 

A reminder of these barbarians below................

 

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1730360102450762198

 

Why do I not see you demanding Hamas release them right now and put an end to this war?

 

https://twitter.com/MazenMahdi/status/1730366408872096022

 

"Posting a picture instead of the video ? What Yarden Bibas said @netanyahu

(your boss) "You bombed and killed my wife and two children; they were my life” “I ask you to return their bodies for burial in Israel." Strange that you omitted who he blamed"

 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

https://twitter.com/MazenMahdi/status/1730366408872096022

 

"Posting a picture instead of the video ? What Yarden Bibas said @netanyahu

(your boss) "You bombed and killed my wife and two children; they were my life” “I ask you to return their bodies for burial in Israel." Strange that you omitted who he blamed"

 

Translated by an unverified twitter account of a Bahraini journalist/Photojournalist my Instagram who has provided just one snippet who we don't even know is correct or not........lol

 

Nice terrorist propaganda there troll

 

"Yesterday, Hamas released a short video of Yarden Bibas, a hostage whose wife and two small children (4yo, 10 months old) were also abducted. He was forced to sit in front of a camera, was told his family is dead, and was fed propaganda text to recite while sobbing and visibly shaking. 
These sick motherf**kers continue to enjoy torturing civilians, and causing pain and suffering. It’s a gut wrenching video and if there’s any person who even remotely thinks that it progresses the Palestinian cause or peace, even by an inch, his sick too."

https://twitter.com/Elad_Si/status/1730495782258606407

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Danderman123]

10 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Do you have any credible evidence that some of the people in Gaza are not pro Hamas?

Lots of people in Gaza support Hamas, it's only natural.

 

But after Hamas is gone, their lives will be better. 

[placeholder]

Once again, the lying liars at Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have been proven to be lying about Israeli use of white phosphorus. A report...oh wait a minute:

 

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus in Lebanon attack

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus munitions in an October attack in southern Lebanon that injured at least nine civilians in what a rights group says should be investigated as a war crime, according to a Washington Post analysis of shell fragments found in a small village.

A journalist working for The Post found remnants of three 155-millimeter artillery rounds fired into Dheira, near the border of Israel, which incinerated at least four homes, residents said. The rounds, which eject felt wedges saturated with white phosphorous that burns at high temperatures, produce billowing smoke to obscure troop movements as it falls haphazardly over a wide area.

https://archive.ph/vuhWJ

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/

 

The article goes on to note that using the highly poisonous white phosphorus as a weapon, as opposed to using it as a smokescreen, is a war crime.

Edited December 11, 2023 by placeholder

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

Lots of people in Gaza support Hamas, it's only natural.

 

But after Hamas is gone, their lives will be better. 

 

I said "any". Clearly you don;t have evidence that even a single person in Gaza doesn't support Hamas, let alone a single able bodied man not being a Hamas fighter.

Edited December 11, 2023 by ozimoron

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I said "any". Clearly you don;t have evidence that even a single person in Gaza doesn't support Hamas, let alone a single able bodied man not being a Hamas fighter.

I don't know what your point is.

 

Are you saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%

 

Or that the level of support in unknowable?

[Bkk Brian]

What else would you expect to find in a Gaza Mosque, after all the schools provide terror training so its only natural to have a fully rounded curriculum. This Mosque boasts a high level indoor target practice room along with matching camo decor and plenty of killing toys.

 

 

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

Once again, the lying liars at Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have been proven to be lying about Israeli use of white phosphorus. A report...oh wait a minute:

 

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus in Lebanon attack

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus munitions in an October attack in southern Lebanon that injured at least nine civilians in what a rights group says should be investigated as a war crime, according to a Washington Post analysis of shell fragments found in a small village.

A journalist working for The Post found remnants of three 155-millimeter artillery rounds fired into Dheira, near the border of Israel, which incinerated at least four homes, residents said. The rounds, which eject felt wedges saturated with white phosphorous that burns at high temperatures, produce billowing smoke to obscure troop movements as it falls haphazardly over a wide area.

https://archive.ph/vuhWJ

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/

 

The article goes on to note that using the highly poisonous white phosphorus as a weapon, as opposed to using it as a smokescreen, is a war crime.

 

 

Isn't this about the same report?

[1happykamper]

The dividing of America continues. Why do you have to be right? It's important for you? Why? 

 

Non of us know the truth. 

 

May I suggest that the recent Netflix movie... Produced by Obama... Leaving the World Behind... will be a stark reminder to what miss information is capable of doing. 

 

Grow up and your Improve critical thinking skills 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

Isn't this about the same report?

Not only.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Not only.

 

Same core comments.

[Bkk Brian]

"They became psychotic, they had hallucinations," Eitan added.

 

Israeli hostages 'drugged and sexually abused'
Israeli hostages who were kidnapped by Hamas and taken to Gaza were drugged to keep them docile in captivity and some were subjected to sexual abuse, according to a doctor treating some of those who have been released.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67672759

 

Hostages were drugged, abused in Gaza: Israeli doctor

Hostages hauled into Gaza during Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel were drugged to keep them docile in captivity and subjected to psychological and sexual abuse, a specialist said Monday.

"I've never seen anything like that" in 20 years of treating trauma victims, said Renana Eitan, director of the psychiatric division of the Tel Aviv Sourasky Medical Centre-Ichilov.

"The physical, the sexual, the mental, the psychological abuse of these hostages that came back is just terrible," she added. "We have to rewrite the textbook."

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231211-hostages-were-drugged-abused-in-gaza-israeli-doctor

Edited December 12, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Bkk Brian]

Doesn't get much more direct than this from Hamas
 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:47 PM, Neeranam said:

Do you think how they have been treated by the Israelis could have affected how they feel towards them?

Occupation, Apartheid, Ethnic Cleansing, etc

Seems that israeli apologists don't want to admit that the way the Palestinians were treated prior to October 7 has anything to do with the rise of Hamas.

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems that israeli apologists don't want to admit that the way the Palestinians were treated prior to October 7 has anything to do with the rise of Hamas.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Seems like you're forever trying to justify the Hamas 7/10 attack.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Doesn't get much more direct than this from Hamas
 

 

 

 

That division between people holding microphones and talking about suicide attacks, and the people who put them on.

So generous building a factory for such.

 

Then there's the bit about founding a new Caliphate - that's sure to play out well (globally and regionally)....or not.

[ozimoron]

17 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I don't know what your point is.

 

Are you saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%

 

Or that the level of support in unknowable?

 

I'm saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%. Any other conclusion would be irrational. My point was, that may not have been the case before October 7th but it surely is now.

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%. Any other conclusion would be irrational. My point was, that may not have been the case before October 7th but it surely is now.

Is this man also irrational in realizing that Hamas is using civilians as a human shield?

 

 

Do you have a link to this claim of yours?

 

"I'm saying that support for Hamas in Gaza is 100%."

 

Hint, check back in this topic for polls done after Oct 7th.