Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

It is an allegation, yes. Did I claim otherwise?

 

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The video released on Monday shows a woman named as Noa Argamani, speaking under duress and saying that two men with whom she had been held had been killed in captivity.

 

She says the men - one of whom was identified as Itay Svirsky, 38 - were killed by "our own IDF strikes", referring to the Israel Defense Forces.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67987097

 

@ozimoron

 

'speaking under duress'.

You own words.

 

And yet you keep pushing Hamas propaganda.

[Morch]

53 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It is an allegation, yes. Did I claim otherwise?

 

@ozimoron

 

You routinely describe Israel's actions as 'war crimes'. Stating it as fact. Not an allegation, no qualification of opinion. Fact.

You even did so in this exchange.

Then you claim otherwise.

 

You are either trolling or have some serious cognitive issues.

[Bkk Brian]

IDF reveals another ‘strategic’ Hamas tunnel under Gaza’s main north-south highway

Troops of the 646th Reserve Paratroopers Brigade, elite Yahalom combat engineering unit and other combat engineers discovered and destroyed what the IDF says is a “strategic” Hamas tunnel, located under Salah a-Din road.

The tunnel, which is hundreds of meters long and around nine meters deep, crosses Wadi Gaza, also known as Besor Stream, the IDF says.

The IDF says the tunnel was used by Hamas gunmen to travel between north and south Gaza undetected.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-reveals-another-strategic-hamas-tunnel-under-gazas-main-north-south-highway/

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

This tunnel is huge with large rocket production facilities including lathes, all hidden under or near residential center

 

WATCH: An in-depth look inside Hamas tunnels in central Gaza, where a plant for the manufacture of rockets and munitions was hidden beneath and near civilian structures
 

 

[Bkk Brian]

The tunnel network was originally assed to be around 250 miles long, its now estimated to be "350 and 450 miles — extraordinary figures for a territory that at its longest point is only 25 miles. Two of the officials also assessed there are close to 5,700 separate shafts leading down to the tunnels."

 

To put that in perspective:

 

This is the London Underground. The network is 250 miles long. It's only 55-70% the length of the network of military tunnels Hamas built under Gaza, with shafts poking out in homes, schools, mosques, and UN facilities.

 

 

Israel Unearths More of a Subterranean Fortress Under Gaza

Another stretched nearly three football fields long and was hidden beneath a hospital. Under the house of a senior Hamas commander, the Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a tunnel approximately seven stories deep.
These details and new information about the tunnels, some made public by the Israeli military and documented by video and photographs, underscore why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started.

https://archive.ph/gyzPS

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-tunnels.html

[thaibeachlovers]

Update on the number of israeli military killed in the conflict since October 7. I doubt any numbers of Hamas fighters killed would be able to be verified, so I'll leave that for someone else to post.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/

The Israel Defense Forces has published the names of 529 soldiers, officers, and reservists — many of whom are local security officers — killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip, with at least 193 during a ground offensive in the Hamas-run territory.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Update on the number of israeli military killed in the conflict since October 7. I doubt any numbers of Hamas fighters killed would be able to be verified, so I'll leave that for someone else to post.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/

The Israel Defense Forces has published the names of 529 soldiers, officers, and reservists — many of whom are local security officers — killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip, with at least 193 during a ground offensive in the Hamas-run territory.

 

Yes that being 529 in total, however those that died in combat since the ground invasion in Gaza is around 200. The others were killed in the Hamas terrorist attack on the 7th Oct in Israel.

 

Your question on the number of Hamas terrorists killed? Its not difficult for you to search that is it, but obviously that is something you'd rather overlook. However since you asked, the number is near on 10,000 killed in Gaza so far with another 1,000 killed when they carried out their cowardly and murderous attack on the 7th Oct. So in total around 11,000 so far. 

 

This from last week.

 

"more than 9,000 Hamas operatives and members of other terror groups have been killed by the IDF in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of the war, in addition to some 1,000 terrorists inside Israel on October 7"

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-war-in-numbers-9000-hamas-members-killed-11000-rockets-fired-into-israel/#:~:text=According to the data%2C more,massacring some 1%2C200 people%2C mostly

 

I note you are still using your usual childish and disrespectful method to write "israel" instead of how it correctly is "Israel". The spell check is an obvious reminder for you every time you write it. How is it you manage to get every other group such as Hamas or Palestinians correct with a capital letter? Why be so deliberately offense to Jews and their country? 

[billd766]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Update on the number of israeli military killed in the conflict since October 7. I doubt any numbers of Hamas fighters killed would be able to be verified, so I'll leave that for someone else to post.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/

The Israel Defense Forces has published the names of 529 soldiers, officers, and reservists — many of whom are local security officers — killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip, with at least 193 during a ground offensive in the Hamas-run territory.

I am sad to hear that anyone has died in this pointless, pitiless slaughter of either side

 

I can't call it a war because it isn't.

 

It is pointless mass destruction and slaughter by armed people on both sides inflicted on unarmed helpless people on both sides.

 

Or I could call it the same as @JingThing keeps throwing at me.

 

It is war.

Edited January 20 by billd766

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

I am sad to hear that anyone has dies in this pointless, pitiless slaughter of either side

 

I can't call it a war because it isn't. It is pointless mass destruction and slaughter by armed people on both sides inflicted on unarmed helpless people.

 

Or I could call it the same as @JingThing keeps throwing at me.

 

It is war.

 

Wars happen between nations. Unless Netanyahu is a student of GW Bush.

[placeholder]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:07 AM, Bkk Brian said:

"In recent weeks, there has been a significant drop in the rate of rocket fire from Gaza"

 

IDF says more than 700 Hamas rocket launchers destroyed since start of Gaza ground offensive

The IDF says ground troops have seized hundreds of rockets, including long-range projectiles, and located many launchers, as the military works to destroy Hamas’s rocket launch capabilities.

Together, ground troops and the IAF have destroyed more than 700 rocket launchers, the IDF says.

In recent weeks, there has been a significant drop in the rate of rocket fire from Gaza, which military officials attributed to Israel’s control of the ground and troops capturing Hamas’s rocket caches and launch sites.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-more-than-700-hamas-rocket-launchers-destroyed-since-start-of-gaza-ground-offensive/

On the other hand

 

On 1/15/2024 at 5:57 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Underneath the city of📍Khan Yunis, IDF troops exposed an underground tunnel confirmed to have held Israeli hostages. 

The tunnel was connected to an extensive network beneath a civilian area. Millions of shekels are estimated to have been invested in excavating the tunnel and equipping it with air ventilation systems, electrical supply and plumbing.

We will continue fighting to bring them HOME.

 

From the start of this war, I've wondered how exactly waging this war will bring the hostages home. Well, at least home alive. Seems I'm not alone in this:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas

After more than 100 days of war, Israel’s limited progress in dismantling Hamas has raised doubts within the military’s high command about the near-term feasibility of achieving the country’s principal wartime objectives: eradicating Hamas and also liberating the Israeli hostages still in Gaza.

Israel has established control over a smaller part of Gaza at this point in the war than it originally envisaged in battle plans from the start of the invasion, which were reviewed by The New York Times. That slower than expected pace has led some commanders to privately express their frustrations over the civilian government’s strategy for Gaza, and led them to conclude that the freedom of more than 100 Israeli hostages still in Gaza can be secured only through diplomatic rather than military means.

https://archive.ph/zc8tC

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-strategy.html

 

Split in Israel’s war leadership breaks into the open

A sharp divide in Israel’s war leadership has broken into the open after former military chief Gadi Eisenkot called for elections within months and said the government was not being truthful with the public about its offensive against Hamas.
A blunt television interview, in which Eisenkot also declined to say that he trusted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, marked a widening split over key questions such as how to secure the return of hostages held by the Palestinian militant group and planning for after the war...

As well as echoing a call from the opposition for snap elections, he added in the interview, which was recorded over recent weeks, that “we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”.

https://archive.ph/RQYzX

https://www.ft.com/content/e1a54af7-2ee7-416c-af2b-e4af42621556

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Wars happen between nations. Unless Netanyahu is a student of GW Bush.

 

@ozimoron

 

Nonsense.

Wars (especially nowadays) often involve parties which are not state-level actors.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

On the other hand

 

From the start of this war, I've wondered how exactly waging this war will bring the hostages home. Well, at least home alive. Seems I'm not alone in this:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas

After more than 100 days of war, Israel’s limited progress in dismantling Hamas has raised doubts within the military’s high command about the near-term feasibility of achieving the country’s principal wartime objectives: eradicating Hamas and also liberating the Israeli hostages still in Gaza.

Israel has established control over a smaller part of Gaza at this point in the war than it originally envisaged in battle plans from the start of the invasion, which were reviewed by The New York Times. That slower than expected pace has led some commanders to privately express their frustrations over the civilian government’s strategy for Gaza, and led them to conclude that the freedom of more than 100 Israeli hostages still in Gaza can be secured only through diplomatic rather than military means.

https://archive.ph/zc8tC

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-strategy.html

 

Split in Israel’s war leadership breaks into the open

A sharp divide in Israel’s war leadership has broken into the open after former military chief Gadi Eisenkot called for elections within months and said the government was not being truthful with the public about its offensive against Hamas.
A blunt television interview, in which Eisenkot also declined to say that he trusted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, marked a widening split over key questions such as how to secure the return of hostages held by the Palestinian militant group and planning for after the war...

As well as echoing a call from the opposition for snap elections, he added in the interview, which was recorded over recent weeks, that “we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”.

https://archive.ph/RQYzX

https://www.ft.com/content/e1a54af7-2ee7-416c-af2b-e4af42621556

 

This is nothing new. It was discussed on previous topics, and links detailing such doubts and disagreements were posted as well.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

This is nothing new. It was discussed on previous topics, and links detailing such doubts and disagreements were posted as well.

Well, it doesn't seem to have had any effect at all on Bkk Brian's rather strident take on the of situation. 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

On the other hand

 

From the start of this war, I've wondered how exactly waging this war will bring the hostages home. Well, at least home alive. Seems I'm not alone in this:

 

 

 

   When you were wondering about that topic, did you think of a better alternative ?

Other than engaging in a war, what other option would there be ?

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

On the other hand

 

From the start of this war, I've wondered how exactly waging this war will bring the hostages home. Well, at least home alive. Seems I'm not alone in this:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas

After more than 100 days of war, Israel’s limited progress in dismantling Hamas has raised doubts within the military’s high command about the near-term feasibility of achieving the country’s principal wartime objectives: eradicating Hamas and also liberating the Israeli hostages still in Gaza.

Israel has established control over a smaller part of Gaza at this point in the war than it originally envisaged in battle plans from the start of the invasion, which were reviewed by The New York Times. That slower than expected pace has led some commanders to privately express their frustrations over the civilian government’s strategy for Gaza, and led them to conclude that the freedom of more than 100 Israeli hostages still in Gaza can be secured only through diplomatic rather than military means.

https://archive.ph/zc8tC

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-strategy.html

 

Split in Israel’s war leadership breaks into the open

A sharp divide in Israel’s war leadership has broken into the open after former military chief Gadi Eisenkot called for elections within months and said the government was not being truthful with the public about its offensive against Hamas.
A blunt television interview, in which Eisenkot also declined to say that he trusted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, marked a widening split over key questions such as how to secure the return of hostages held by the Palestinian militant group and planning for after the war...

As well as echoing a call from the opposition for snap elections, he added in the interview, which was recorded over recent weeks, that “we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”.

https://archive.ph/RQYzX

https://www.ft.com/content/e1a54af7-2ee7-416c-af2b-e4af42621556

Indeed you are not alone in this, its something we've all wondered. I take faith in some of the hostage families including the ones whose son was accidently killed when he put up a white flag. The mum said she understood and the IDF were doing a very difficult job and it was "nobody’s fault except that of Hamas". They did make one successful rescue of a female soldier who was taken hostage but obviously the majority have been released through negotiations and temporary ceasefires.

 

Israel knows that but the last ceasefire was broken by Hamas and they have so far failed to agree another one despite a very good offer from IDF. I had actually read this in the Times of Israel yesterday re Gadi Eisenkot calling for elections, and?

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Well, it doesn't seem to have had any effect at all on Bkk Brian's rather strident take on the of situation. 

🥱

Edited January 20 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

   When you were wondering about that topic, did you think of a better alternative ?

Other than engaging in a war, what other option would there be ?

Are you trying to make a liar out of Morch? Not so long ago he told me in no uncertain terms that the information I posted had already been extensively discussed. Yet here you are apparently entirely ignorant of this. Well, given that you clearly ignored what I posted, it may be that Morch's claim is true and that you ignored the subject back then too. I do suggest that you go back and read the 2 articles I linked to. Or at least read the 3 sentences from each one that I posted. One of them links to an article in which the ex Chief of Staff of the Israeli military and current observer to the Israeli war cabinet said:

 

“we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”.

Eisenkot said Israel should consider halting the fighting for a “significant” period of time as part of any such deal.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Are you trying to make a liar out of Morch? Not so long ago he told me in no uncertain terms that the information I posted had already been extensively discussed. Yet here you are apparently entirely ignorant of this. Well, given that you clearly ignored what I posted, it may be that Morch's claim is true and that you ignored the subject back then too. I do suggest that you go back and read the 2 articles I linked to. Or at least read the 3 sentences from each one that I posted. One of them links to an article in which the ex Chief of Staff of the Israeli military and current observer to the Israeli war cabinet said:

 

“we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”.

Eisenkot said Israel should consider halting the fighting for a “significant” period of time as part of any such deal.

 

That's got nothing to do with the question you were asked. As I recall, you did your best to dodge it on past occasions as well.

 

Do note that what Eisenkot says is current, I don't know that this was his exact position from the start. Also, the man lost a son in the fighting - assume it also plays a part in the way he perceives things.

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's got nothing to do with the question you were asked. As I recall, you did your best to dodge it on past occasions as well.

 

Do note that what Eisenkot says is current, I don't know that this was his exact position from the start. Also, the man lost a son in the fighting - assume it also plays a part in the way he perceives things.

Given that the US among others had repeatedly pushed for a more targeted approach, and that this was hardly secret, I often told those who asked me to consult the US govt's opinion. And then ignored those who still asked because the answer was obvious. And still is. You really think that question is a stumper? 

You just told me that this issue had been discussed and now you're telling me that at least Eisenkot's current opinion wasn't? A tingling sensation tells me that you're going to characterize this as nitpicking rather than acknowledging a stumble on your part.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Given that the US among others had repeatedly pushed for a more targeted approach, and that this was hardly secret, I often told those who asked me to consult the US govt's opinion. And then ignored those who still asked because the answer was obvious. And still is. You really think that question is a stumper? 

You just told me that this issue had been discussed and now you're telling me that at least Eisenkot's current opinion wasn't? A tingling sensation tells me that you're going to characterize this as nitpicking rather than acknowledging a stumble on your part.

 

That would be you trying to force your own point of view on what I said (this is the part where you will 'explain' to me what I 'really' meant). That happens when you find a pet 'issue' and push it regardless of what's posted, and while at it, try to frame everyone else's posts and words to fit your argument.

 

A 'more targeted approach' is neither what the issue is, nor is it a clear solution to Israel's dilemma. You are conflating, intentionally or otherwise, between two different things. A 'more targeted approach' would not have much consequence as per the chances to release the hostage, other than, perhaps, bringing less pressure to bear on Hamas. It would help the PR angle some, maybe. What Eisenkot (and others) are about is more to do with cutting a deal, releasing the hostages (as many as possible, at least) first. The notion is that ongoing military action will not bring this about.

 

These issues were, indeed, discussed. But the ones airing them earlier on were not in the same level of decision making and power. Even Eisenkot's previous reservations were framed more carefully than that - and I don't think he expressed them from the very beginning of this war.

 

I really don't care about your sensations, and there was no 'stumble' other than in your imagination (again, this where you'll probably 'explain' to me what I 'actually' meant etc.).

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

That would be you trying to force your own point of view on what I said (this is the part where you will 'explain' to me what I 'really' meant). That happens when you find a pet 'issue' and push it regardless of what's posted, and while at it, try to frame everyone else's posts and words to fit your argument.

 

A 'more targeted approach' is neither what the issue is, nor is it a clear solution to Israel's dilemma. You are conflating, intentionally or otherwise, between two different things. A 'more targeted approach' would not have much consequence as per the chances to release the hostage, other than, perhaps, bringing less pressure to bear on Hamas. It would help the PR angle some, maybe. What Eisenkot (and others) are about is more to do with cutting a deal, releasing the hostages (as many as possible, at least) first. The notion is that ongoing military action will not bring this about.

 

These issues were, indeed, discussed. But the ones airing them earlier on were not in the same level of decision making and power. Even Eisenkot's previous reservations were framed more carefully than that - and I don't think he expressed them from the very beginning of this war.

 

I really don't care about your sensations, and there was no 'stumble' other than in your imagination (again, this where you'll probably 'explain' to me what I 'actually' meant etc.).

What you referred to past questions about what strategy Israel should pursue in the war. Those questions were not about the hostages about how Israel should prosecute the war with respect to the hostages.. Of course, if you're dropping 2000+ lb bombs, it's more likely that collateral damage will also have an impact - a literal one - on the hostages. Also, there are a few people I just don't bother to reply to at all anymore.

As for your previous suggestion and cheap shot that Eisenkot's stance on the hostage issue might have something to do with the death of his son, he's hardly alone.

 

Report: Top IDF commanders believe freeing hostages not compatible with goal of destroying Hamas

Senior Israel Defense Force commanders now believe that Israel’s two stated goals of destroying Hamas and freeing the hostages are not compatible, The New York Times reports.

Four senior commanders, speaking on condition of anonymity, tell the Times that “the dual objectives of freeing the hostages and destroying Hamas are now mutually incompatible.”

The report says it has reviewed Israeli battle plans from the start of the war and that the IDF is currently in control of a smaller part of the Strip than originally envisioned.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-top-idf-commanders-believe-freeing-hostages-not-compatible-with-goal-of-destroying-hamas/

 

This always seemed so blatantly obvious that I marvel at the belief of some that total war is a viable approach to freeing the hostages.. I can only posit that people consumed with grief and rage probably aren't thinking too clearly about subscribing to this plan. As for the strategy, a likely explanation for this is that the Israeli War Cabinet, whose plan this is,  has decided that freeing the hostages is less important than eradicating or crippling Hamas.  And I suppose a rational case could be made to support that strategy.

 

Edited January 20 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

Its currently a tale of two halves with some in the middle but the North has certainly been wound down and central is being slowly cleared of terrorist infastructure.

 

 

Fighting Eases in Northern Gaza, Giving Residents Some Relief

As Israel dials back the intensity of its military campaign in the northern Gaza Strip, some residents say they are able to walk through war-ravaged neighborhoods more freely, and that the sounds of gun battles and explosions are becoming less frequent.

Rami Jelde, 32, a resident of Gaza City, said that over the last four weeks he had not seen any Israeli soldiers while walking the streets of what was Gaza’s most populous city before the war. He spent much of the past three months huddling with his family at a local church, alongside roughly 350 other Christians, in an attempt to evade nearly constant explosions.

People “are starting to leave and walk around, get supplies, and hurry back,” said Mr. Jelde, who works for a Catholic relief group.

https://archive.ph/gUm29

NYT

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

This is one of those gory incidents in this war since Oct 7th and what gets found when searching buildings. It was always known that Hamas offered $10,000 per live hostage taken when they got them back to Gaza, at least so that's the reports from some of the terrorists. But it seems body parts were also part of that deal, alive or dead.

 

Government Spokesman: X Video link

I'd like to draw your attention to the number 10,000. $10,000 is the price a terrorist tried to sell the dismembered head of an Israeli soldier in Gaza.

 

Israeli father says Hamas tried to sell his son’s decapitated head for $10,000

A fallen Israeli soldier’s father claimed that after his 19-year-old son was killed, Hamas terrorists tried to sell his decapitated head for $10,000 in Gaza.

Adir’s head was later found inside a freezer in Gaza, stashed inside a duffel bag with tennis balls and some documents, his father said.

“[There were] documents of some terrorist and a soldier’s head. They managed to bring what was left after two and a half months, it was probably abused there as well,” he said.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/17/news/israeli-dad-says-hamas-tried-to-sell-sons-decapitated-head/

[Bkk Brian]

“We discovered that every house has a shaft, and a whole underground network connects them, including the school and the mosque,”

 

In central Gaza, where gunmen lurk underground, a commander sees a long slog ahead

His core message, one that he returned to several times, was that Israel’s war against Hamas was not close to being completed.

“It’s not going to end soon,” said Shushan. “We are going to be here another year.”

Two days before, troops under his command foiled a Hamas plan to fire dozens of rockets at Netivot. The attack had been slated for Sunday, when tens of thousands of people were gathered in the city to mark the anniversary of the death of the Baba Sali, a mystical Morocco-born rabbi with a large following.

Shushan told The Times of Israel that they exposed the plot and raided the olive orchard in which the launchers were hidden. The launchers were mostly buried in the ground, with rockets loaded inside.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-central-gaza-where-gunmen-lurk-underground-a-commander-sees-a-long-slog-ahead/

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

What you referred to past questions about what strategy Israel should pursue in the war. Those questions were not about the hostages about how Israel should prosecute the war with respect to the hostages.. Of course, if you're dropping 2000+ lb bombs, it's more likely that collateral damage will also have an impact - a literal one - on the hostages. Also, there are a few people I just don't bother to reply to at all anymore.

As for your previous suggestion and cheap shot that Eisenkot's stance on the hostage issue might have something to do with the death of his son, he's hardly alone.

 

Report: Top IDF commanders believe freeing hostages not compatible with goal of destroying Hamas

Senior Israel Defense Force commanders now believe that Israel’s two stated goals of destroying Hamas and freeing the hostages are not compatible, The New York Times reports.

Four senior commanders, speaking on condition of anonymity, tell the Times that “the dual objectives of freeing the hostages and destroying Hamas are now mutually incompatible.”

The report says it has reviewed Israeli battle plans from the start of the war and that the IDF is currently in control of a smaller part of the Strip than originally envisioned.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-top-idf-commanders-believe-freeing-hostages-not-compatible-with-goal-of-destroying-hamas/

 

This always seemed so blatantly obvious that I marvel at the belief of some that total war is a viable approach to freeing the hostages.. I can only posit that people consumed with grief and rage probably aren't thinking too clearly about subscribing to this plan. As for the strategy, a likely explanation for this is that the Israeli War Cabinet, whose plan this is,  has decided that freeing the hostages is less important than eradicating or crippling Hamas.  And I suppose a rational case could be made to support that strategy.

 

 

As expected, you're trying to tell me what I posted, what I meant, and how that fits into your own new pet 'issue' and argument.

 

You are wrong. I referenced the issue of the hostages, and how it complicated and effects the war effort/options since the beginning of these topics.

 

The rest of your usual deflection waffle, with the expected memes is uninteresting and just dodges issues and points made.

 

As for 'cheap shot' - here is what you posted just a few lines bellow:

 

Quote

I can only posit that people consumed with grief and rage probably aren't thinking too clearly about subscribing to this plan.

 

Apparently a legit comment when you make it.

 

You do not know the man, his family or anything. You're just doing the fake outrage bit to score a point. Obviously, you have not been following his rhetoric, words, and attitude so you just try to wave this out of hand. The difference is there. For some reason you seem to think such an event won't have an effect on him, but somehow may on others - I don't know why. I'm also not interested in any slimy explanation on this you may come up with. You've no idea what you're talking about. You'll say pretty much anything in the course of any petty argument. Disgusting.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its currently a tale of two halves with some in the middle but the North has certainly been wound down and central is being slowly cleared of terrorist infastructure.

 

 

Fighting Eases in Northern Gaza, Giving Residents Some Relief

As Israel dials back the intensity of its military campaign in the northern Gaza Strip, some residents say they are able to walk through war-ravaged neighborhoods more freely, and that the sounds of gun battles and explosions are becoming less frequent.

Rami Jelde, 32, a resident of Gaza City, said that over the last four weeks he had not seen any Israeli soldiers while walking the streets of what was Gaza’s most populous city before the war. He spent much of the past three months huddling with his family at a local church, alongside roughly 350 other Christians, in an attempt to evade nearly constant explosions.

People “are starting to leave and walk around, get supplies, and hurry back,” said Mr. Jelde, who works for a Catholic relief group.

https://archive.ph/gUm29

NYT

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, there were rockets launched from areas Israel withdrew from, and reports of Hamas officials/policemen starting to do the rounds again.

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As expected, you're trying to tell me what I posted, what I meant, and how that fits into your own new pet 'issue' and argument.

 

You are wrong. I referenced the issue of the hostages, and how it complicated and effects the war effort/options since the beginning of these topics.

 

The rest of your usual deflection waffle, with the expected memes is uninteresting and just dodges issues and points made.

 

As for 'cheap shot' - here is what you posted just a few lines bellow:

 

 

Apparently a legit comment when you make it.

 

You do not know the man, his family or anything. You're just doing the fake outrage bit to score a point. Obviously, you have not been following his rhetoric, words, and attitude so you just try to wave this out of hand. The difference is there. For some reason you seem to think such an event won't have an effect on him, but somehow may on others - I don't know why. I'm also not interested in any slimy explanation on this you may come up with. You've no idea what you're talking about. You'll say pretty much anything in the course of any petty argument. Disgusting.

 

 

As for me not knowing the man, his family etc...your point is truly bizarre. It wasn't me but rather you making guesses about his judgement based on his personal circumstances. Your reproach is obviously better directed at yourself.

Also, as I pointed out, Eisenkot's opinion was hardly his alone. Did you skip over the part about senior IDF commanders agreeing with him? Has grieving over the death of Eisenkot's son skewed their thinking too?

And if you read my comment with just a little bit of care, you will see that I didn't assign emotionalism at all to the formulators of the strategy:

 "As for the strategy, a likely explanation for this is that the Israeli War Cabinet, whose plan this is, has decided that freeing the hostages is less important than eradicating or crippling Hamas.  And I suppose a rational case could be made to support that strategy."

As for grief and rage making Israelis susceptible to believing that such a plan would be effective...it's clear that's what most Israelis have been feeling.  I've already posted data about the awful things said about Arabs enjoying much popularity in Israel. And the awful and mostly unpunished violence waged against them. I don't see how otherwise, in the absence of said grief and rage, someone can believe that both waging total warfare and rescue of the hostages are reconcilable. In support of my thesis I should note, that with the passage of time as the outrage in Israel ebbs, rationality about this issue seems to be on the rise again as evidenced by the growing Israeli opposition to the government's approach to restoring the hostages to Israel.  

[Bkk Brian]

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

As for me not knowing the man, his family etc...your point is truly bizarre. It wasn't me but rather you making guesses about his judgement based on his personal circumstances. Your reproach is obviously better directed at yourself.

Also, as I pointed out, Eisenkot's opinion was hardly his alone. Did you skip over the part about senior IDF commanders agreeing with him? Has grieving over the death of Eisenkot's son skewed their thinking too?

And if you read my comment with just a little bit of care, you will see that I didn't assign emotionalism at all to the formulators of the strategy:

 "As for the strategy, a likely explanation for this is that the Israeli War Cabinet, whose plan this is, has decided that freeing the hostages is less important than eradicating or crippling Hamas.  And I suppose a rational case could be made to support that strategy."

As for grief and rage making Israelis susceptible to believing that such a plan would be effective...it's clear that's what most Israelis have been feeling.  I've already posted data about the awful things said about Arabs enjoying much popularity in Israel. And the awful and mostly unpunished violence waged against them. I don't see how otherwise, in the absence of said grief and rage, someone can believe that both waging total warfare and rescue of the hostages are reconcilable. In support of my thesis I should note, that with the passage of time as the outrage in Israel ebbs, rationality about this issue seems to be on the rise again as evidenced by the growing Israeli opposition to the government's approach to restoring the hostages to Israel.  

Also, as I pointed out, Eisenkot's opinion was hardly his alone. Did you skip over the part about senior IDF commanders agreeing with him? 

 

No, I didn't skip over that, nor did many people, did the NYT name those other commanders? Thought not.

 

The Israel Defense Forces says the comments cited in a New York Times report earlier were “not known” to the military and “do not reflect the IDF’s position.”

The NYT reported today that four senior IDF commanders now believe Israel’s two stated goals of destroying Hamas and freeing the hostages are not compatible.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-commanders-comments-in-nyt-report-on-hostages-not-known-dont-reflect-military-position/

 

By the way, I don't mean anything other than that quoted above. 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Also, as I pointed out, Eisenkot's opinion was hardly his alone. Did you skip over the part about senior IDF commanders agreeing with him? 

 

No, I didn't skip over that, nor did many people, did the NYT name those other commanders? Thought not.

 

The Israel Defense Forces says the comments cited in a New York Times report earlier were “not known” to the military and “do not reflect the IDF’s position.”

The NYT reported today that four senior IDF commanders now believe Israel’s two stated goals of destroying Hamas and freeing the hostages are not compatible.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-commanders-comments-in-nyt-report-on-hostages-not-known-dont-reflect-military-position/

 

By the way, I don't mean anything other than that quoted above. 

I guess sharing the Amen Israel corner with right wing denialists has jaundiced your view of the NY Times. You seriously believe that reporters for the Times are making this up?

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I guess sharing the Amen Israel corner with right wing denialists has jaundiced your view of the NY Times. You seriously believe that reporters for the Times are making this up?

 

No comment after that pathetic off topic: I guess sharing the Amen Israel corner with right wing denialists has jaundiced your view of the NY Times.