What Gaza's death toll says about the war

[CharlieH]

 

At least 20,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been reported killed since Israel began bombing the territory in the wake of Hamas's 7 October attacks. BBC Verify examines what Gaza's death toll reveals about the conflict.

On average, nearly 300 people have been killed each day since the start of the conflict, excluding the seven-day ceasefire, data from Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry indicates. The World Health Organization's regional emergency director Richard Brennan says he considers these casualty figures trustworthy.

Counting the dead is a challenge in any war zone, and doctors in Gaza say the death toll is likely to be significantly higher as it does not include bodies buried under the rubble of destroyed buildings or those not taken to hospitals.

BBC Verify has looked in detail at the figures, how they compare with other conflicts and the impact on Gaza's young population.

A high death toll

The pace of killing in this war has been "exceptionally high", says Prof Michael Spagat, who specialises in examining death tolls in conflicts around the world, such as the 2003 Iraq war, Colombia's civil conflict, wars in the Democratic Republic of Congo as well as previous wars between Israel and Gaza.

"Within the series of Gaza wars stretching back to 2008, the current one is unprecedented both for the number of people killed and for the indiscriminateness of the killing," he adds.

 

 

 

 

FULL ARTICLE

 

[ozimoron]

Just so nobody misses the point

 

"Within the series of Gaza wars stretching back to 2008, the current one is unprecedented both for the number of people killed and for the indiscriminateness of the killing," he adds.

 

[Morch]

This article relies heavily on input from Marc Garlasco.

 

Marc Garlasco

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco

 

There's a lengthy account of events leading to him not being with HRW anymore:

 

Exit from HRW over Nazi memorabilia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco#Exit_from_HRW_over_Nazi_memorabilia

 

 

[Morch]

Here's another tidbit appearing therein, not much expanded on later in the article. Maybe doesn't fit the narrative:

 

Quote

In worldwide conflicts between 2011 and 2021, on average 90% of fatalities were civilians when explosive weapons were used on populated areas, according to the research and advocacy group Action on Armed Violence.

 

[Hanaguma]

Another rather important piece of information that, curiously, is never mentioned:

 

"Hamas's figures do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants."

[Hawaiian]

The continuous citing of the same statistics over and and over makes one wonder if some posters have run out of meaningful things to say.  I realize this post has a different title, but the comments and statistics are the same.  The best Christmas present they can give us is to knock it off.  Maybe Santa will reward them with a lump of coal.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Hawaiian
Correction

[Rimmer]

Off topic post about Sudan removed also a reply

[Neeranam]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:02 PM, Hanaguma said:

Another rather important piece of information that, curiously, is never mentioned:

 

"Hamas's figures do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants."

Are you implying that it's OK? 

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you implying that it's OK? 

Where is he "implying that it's OK?" That's correct he isn't, it is you being disingenuous.

[Hanaguma]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Are you implying that it's OK? 

Not at all OK. I think Hamas should definitely distinguish between civilian and combatant deaths. 

 

But for some reason, they don't.

[Morch]

Senior Palestinian official criticizes Hamas: 'Led to catastrophe'

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sk92ow9wa

 

 

[Doctor Tom]

It means Israel is achieving its Military objective, to  destroy Hamas and the people and infrastructure that supports it.  So far, its a job well done. 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Doctor Tom said:

It means Israel is achieving its Military objective, to  destroy Hamas and the people and infrastructure that supports it.  So far, its a job well done. 

 

Achieving it how? Does Hamas surrender? Stop fighting? Release hostages? Accept proposals?

[Yellowtail]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:45 AM, Neeranam said:

Are you implying that it's OK? 

Are you implying it's not okay? 

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Achieving it how? Does Hamas surrender? Stop fighting? Release hostages? Accept proposals?

I think the only thing that should be acceptable to Israel is Hamas releasing the hostages and surrendering. 

[Doctor Tom]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Achieving it how? Does Hamas surrender? Stop fighting? Release hostages? Accept proposals?

Hopefully, when the military action is over, there will be nobody left in Hamas to surrender. The stupid, deluded population of Gaza, who have succored and supported the terrorists for decades,  have now lost everything of any value.  I hope that they think that it's been worth it. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Doctor Tom

[Yellowtail]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:02 PM, Hanaguma said:

Another rather important piece of information that, curiously, is never mentioned:

 

"Hamas's figures do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants."

Anyone under 19 is considered an innocent child even if they are fighting with Hamas. 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think the only thing that should be acceptable to Israel is Hamas releasing the hostages and surrendering. 

 

Not seeing either on the menu, currently.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

Hopefully, when the military action is over, there will be nobody left in Hamas to surrender. The stupid, deluded population of Gaza, who have succored and supported the terrorists for decades,  have now lost everything of any value.  I hope that they think that it's been worth it. 

 

For decades? Hamas is not in control of the Gaza Strip that long. And, of course, it's not like all Gazans voted them in.

 

Hopes are very nice, but aren't a substitute for reality, and the reality is that this operation either drags on, or dies a slow undignified death.

 

 

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Anyone under 19 is considered an innocent child even if they are fighting with Hamas. 

Anyone carrying a weapon is a legitimate target. 

[Doctor Tom]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

For decades? Hamas is not in control of the Gaza Strip that long. And, of course, it's not like all Gazans voted them in.

 

Hopes are very nice, but aren't a substitute for reality, and the reality is that this operation either drags on, or dies a slow undignified death.

 

 

The reality is that Israel will not stop until Hamas is finished. They have pretty much destroyed Gaza as a livable environment, so that is progress. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Doctor Tom

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

Not seeing either on the menu, currently.

 

And? 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Doctor Tom said:

The reality is that Israel will not stop until Hamas is finished. 

From your mouth to God's ear...

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Doctor Tom said:

The reality is that Israel will not stop until Hamas is finished. 

 

Or at least, that's the official line.

[Doctor Tom]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

From your mouth to God's ear...

There is no God. 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

 

And? 

 

Already addressed above.

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

or decades? Hamas is not in control of the Gaza Strip that long. And, of course, it's not like all Gazans voted them in.

Hamas was founded in 1987, so 3 and a half decades ago 

[Morch]

Just now, Doctor Tom said:

Hamas was founded in 1987, so 3 and a half decades ago 

 

Israel did not consider Hamas a serious threat for a long time, and even after it was defined as a threat, a policy emerged under which it was used as a sort of counter-balance to the PA. If referring to the situation dealt with now, meaning Hamas controlling Gaza with all that infrastructure - that's a more recent development.

[OneMoreFarang]

Israel (politicians) want it all.

And the USA let them do what they want.

And the rest of the world can only watch.

And then some people are surprised when many people around the world hate the USA.

 

 

[NickyLouie]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Israel (politicians) want it all.

And the USA let them do what they want.

And the rest of the world can only watch.

And then some people are surprised when many people around the world hate the USA.

 

 

 

So what's your excuse ?