Exemptions under the new tax laws?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please remember though - the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return and prove that the money they remitted into Thailand is from a Pension - or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that. 

My US SSc is paid directly into Bangkok Bank each month. In order set up that direct deposit, I had to get the bank to sign the US SSc direct deposit mandate which was copied and kept by the bank and the original  returned to Wilkes Barr. There is therefore signed proof in the possession on me, the bank and US SSc that the monthly deposits I receive are indeed US SSc pension.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

My US SSc is paid directly into Bangkok Bank each month. In order set up that direct deposit, I had to get the bank to sign the US SSc direct deposit mandate which was copied and kept by the bank and the original  returned to Wilkes Barr. There is therefore signed proof in the possession on me, the bank and US SSc that the monthly deposits I receive are indeed US SSc pension.

 

What has the above got to do with @TroubleandGrumpy comment.

 

Quote

Please remember though - the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return and prove that the money they remitted into Thailand is from a Pension - or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that. 

 

By some strange quirk of fate @TroubleandGrumpy is asking the same question that I have been asking.

 

What happened prior to 01 Jan 2024 is now irrelevant.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

What has the above got to do with @TroubleandGrumpy comment.

 

 

By some strange quirk of fate @TroubleandGrumpy is asking the same question that I have been asking.

 

What happened prior to 01 Jan 2024 is now irrelevant.

US SSc is my SSc pension, TG asked about proving its source.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please remember though - the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return and prove that the money they remitted into Thailand is from a Pension - or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that. 

There is no place on a Thai tax return for "proving" this. Nor for declaring non-assessable income. Only assessable income is to be declared. (There are ways to show a tax credit for taxes already paid in your home country, but that is a different matter)

 

By law you do not need to file unless you have Assessable income above 120,000 baht a year.

 

And under law, there are no penalties to failing to file if no tax was owed.

 

 

[Sheryl]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:33 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yes, the LTR visa got its tax exempt status by royal decree long before the Revenue Department came along this past fall with their new "tax the expats" scheme.

 

It is completely wrong to characterize the new regulation as a "tax the expats scheme". Not remotely the intent or motive.

[Sheryl]

33 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear what you are saying Sheryl - I assume that means that the Thai RD has confirmed to the BOI that their LTR Visa holders are still exempt from income taxes under this rule change.

 

 

 

Why should the Thai RD confirm anything to the BOI?

 

This was a Riyal Proclamation and thus binding on both BOI and RD alike.

 

RD does nto have the authority to override it.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

There is no place on a Thai tax return for "proving" this. Nor for declaring non-assessable income. Only assessable income is to be declared. (There are ways to show a tax credit for taxes already paid in your home country, but that is a different matter)

 

By law you do not need to file unless you have Assessable income above 120,000 baht a year.

 

And under law, there are no penalties to failing to file if no tax was owed.

 

I hear you Sheryle - and that is all good. But if I may make two points.

 

1. There seems to be a 'wave' of belief amongst posters that a DTA means no tax.  That is the first thing I am responding to - and I am stating that is not automatically the case. Each Expat should very carefully determine if they do not have to pay income taxes (not just say 'DTA means no tax'). Then and only then, should they believe that they have no tax to pay.  I am experienced in tax laws in Aust (business and personal) and I have researched the 'laws' here and I have calculated that I am not liable for income taxes - BUT I have no idea how I would prove that in an acceptable form to the Thai RD.  Therefore I have taken steps to be able at anytime in the future to provide documentation that will substatiate my belief that I have no income tax liability. Hopefully that would be accepted by the Thai RD under point 2 below.

 

2.  How things work with a taxation Dept (in any country) and the Thai RD is basically the same as all the others is thaty they will investigate any person or company if/when they are given (or find) a reason to investigate.  They will go back many years and they will obtain and review many records, including bank records, to decide if there has possibly been a breach of the taxation rules (non lodgement or false lodgement).  Then they will, if warranted, require that person or company to provide explanation - they may even just go ahead and calculate a taxation debt amonunt and provide them with that and request payment or a response. By not lodging a tax return, when in the opinion of the Thai RD you should have, is a very serious issue.  So my point is - dont just think you have no tax obligation - try and prove it - and keep records just in case.

 

The reality is that all remittanmces into Thailand are recorded and the Thai RD can obtain them for any company or person, if they want to. No they do not check them all every year - but if they believe something is 'wrong' they will check them for a person or company - and I think liker in Aust they can go back 7 years.   Plus on top of that every now and then a tax dept will have a 'campaign' and in one year they will check the tax returns of a certain group of people. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

26 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Why should the Thai RD confirm anything to the BOI?

 

This was a Riyal Proclamation and thus binding on both BOI and RD alike.

 

RD does nto have the authority to override it.

I saw a media press release that stated that the BOI had asked the Thai RD to confirm that their LTR Visa exemption still applied under the new tax rule change. 

 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

I hear you Sheryle - and that is all good. But if I may make two points.

 

1. There seems to be a 'wave' of belief amongst posters that a DTA means no tax.  That is the first thing I am responding to - and I am stating that is not automatically the case. Each Expat should very carefully determine if they do not have to pay income taxes (not just say 'DTA means no tax'). Then and only then, should they believe that they have no tax to pay.  I am experienced in tax laws in Aust (business and personal) and I have researched the 'laws' here and I have calculated that I am not liable for income taxes - BUT I have no idea how I would prove that in an acceptable form to the Thai RD.  Therefore I have taken steps to be able at anytime in the future to provide documentation that will substatiate my belief that I have no income tax liability. Hopefully that would be accepted by the Thai RD under point 2 below.

 

2.  How things work with a taxation Dept (in any country) and the Thai RD is basically the same as all the others is thaty they will investigate any person or company if/when they are given (or find) a reason to investigate.  They will go back many years and they will obtain and review many records, including bank records, to decide if there has possibly been a breach of the taxation rules (non lodgement or false lodgement).  Then they will, if warranted, require that person or company to provide explanation - they may even just go ahead and calculate a taxation debt amonunt and provide them with that and request payment or a response. By not lodging a tax return, when in the opinion of the Thai RD you should have, is a very serious issue.  So my point is - dont just think you have no tax obligation - try and prove it - and keep records just in case.

 

The reality is that all remittanmces into Thailand are recorded and the Thai RD can obtain them for any company or person, if they want to. No they do not check them all every year - but if they believe something is 'wrong' they will check them for a person or company - and I think liker in Aust they can go back 7 years.   Plus on top of that every now and then a tax dept will have a 'campaign' and in one year they will check the tax returns of a certain group of people. 

 

No argument with either of these points.

 

What I was responding to was the completely unnececessary anxiety among some that they might, somehow, be in trouble for failing to file when they had no accessible income.

 

There is absolutely NO requirement to file if you have no assessable income (or assessable income less than 120k baht for the year, 60K if interest income).

 

And AFAIK no way to indicate on a filing that income is non-assessable and exempt thereby. It is not the intention of these forms to provide a format for showing your income is non-assessable. The forms are designed for declaring assessable income.

 

A person will only cause unnecessary (and considerable) problems for themself by filing in that circumstance.

 

Of course, the burden of being sure y income is not asessable rests with the individual.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 

No argument with either of these points.

 

What I was responding to was the completely unnececessary anxiety among some that they might, somehow, be in trouble for failing to file when they had no accessible income.

 

There is absolutely NO requirement to file if you have no assessable income (or assessable income less than 120k baht for the year, 60K if interest income).

 

And AFAIK no way to indicate on a filing that income is non-assessable and exempt thereby. It is not the intention of these forms to provide a format for showing your income is non-assessable. The forms are designed for declaring assessable income.

 

A person will only cause unnecessary (and considerable) problems for themself by filing in that circumstance.

 

Of course, the burden of being sure y income is not asessable rests with the individual.

Yes I also agree with all that Sheryle - absolutely true.

 

I know a couple of taxation people here in Thailand - the only viable way to claim under a DTA would be to use their services.  That is why I hope the Thai RD advises exactly what you have stated - Expats do not have to lodge a tax return if they believe/calculate that they do not have any tax payable in Thailand.  So far that has not happened - it was 'implied' under the old tax rule and universally applied - but this rule change means that the Thai RD should IMO formly clarify that point, and not just expect us all to wait and see what happens. 

[Presnock]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:35 PM, Presnock said:

some of the translated Thai tax law are done by these tax agents/agencies.  Since DTA's may be different by country , the agents/agencies are probably waiting for the Thai govt to make the final restrictions.  At least one of the ex-pat news casts about the program indicated that not all Thai officials agreed with the program and that the committee working on the program were meeting regularlly.

 

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please remember though - the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return and prove that the money they remitted into Thailand is from a Pension - or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that. 

WIth US govt pension is easy enough to do, get yearly/monthly reports of pension funds sent and taxes deducted, then at end of year get a w2 stating total paid during the year and taxes paid for that period and if that is not enough, then there is my 1040 income tax form that I have to do yearly.

fyi interesting article on some local powers against this new policy too in Thai Examiner.com

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

US SSc is my SSc pension, TG asked about proving its source.

 

Just one of the questions he asked.

 

The other one, surprise surprise

 

Quote

the big issue on this matter, is will the Thai RD require US Expats to lodge a tax return

 

quickly followed by

 

Quote

or will they issue advice that confirms the DTA exempotion and state that such an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return and 'prove' that. 

 

Delete US and insert any other Country. The question remains the same

 

@Sheryl has again, provided what I believed to be the case in the past

 

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

here is absolutely NO requirement to file if you have no assessable income (or assessable income less than 120k baht for the year, 60K if interest income).

 

I was trying to clarify if it was the same going forward post 01 Jan 2024

 

Just like @TroubleandGrumpy is still trying to do

 

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Expats do not have to lodge a tax return if they believe/calculate that they do not have any tax payable in Thailand.  So far that has not happened - it was 'implied' under the old tax rule and universally applied

 

And bingo

 

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

but this rule change means that the Thai RD should IMO formly clarify that point, and not just expect us all to wait and see what happens. 

 

What was done previously does not mean that it will automatically carry forward from 01 Jan 2024.

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Just one of the questions he asked.

 

The other one, surprise surprise

 

 

quickly followed by

 

 

Delete US and insert any other Country. The question remains the same

 

@Sheryl has again, provided what I believed to be the case in the past

 

 

I was trying to clarify if it was the same going forward post 01 Jan 2024

 

Just like @TroubleandGrumpy is still trying to do

 

 

And bingo

 

 

What was done previously does not mean that it will automatically carry forward from 01 Jan 2024.

Why? There has been absolutely no change in filing requirements. 

 

There has been a change in one single resowct  regarding what is assessable income. No chabge at all regarding obligation to file if one has no assessable income.

 

People are reading into this one change in regulation a host of implications that simply are not there.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Why? There has been absolutely no change in filing requirements. 

 

You are probably correct.

 

However the announcement that the RD was updating and adding an additional section to the tax return has caused some confusion.

 

If there are no changes in filing requirements why are they adding extra sections to the tax form.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You are probably correct.

 

However the announcement that the RD was updating and adding an additional section to the tax return has caused some confusion.

 

If there are no changes in filing requirements why are they adding extra sections to the tax form.

Tax returns are modified frequently, potentially every year which is why there is a different download link for each year so this shouldn't cause any confusion. 

 

As far as the "who should file" question is concerned, the following is being added to the document, lifted directly from the RD:

 

1. Who must file a tax return? The English language translation of the RD rule says that, "You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

(1) Your total income exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

(2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 220,000 baht in the tax year."

 

This is understood to mean assessable income.

 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax returns are modified frequently, potentially every year which is why there is a different download link for each year so this shouldn't cause any confusion. 

 

I will let you search for the announcement of the changes, but I am pretty sure that the updates were specifically for expats.

 

I recall saying at the time, perhaps there will be a section for non assessable income, or income covered by a DTA,

 

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

1. Who must file a tax return? The English language translation of the RD rule says that, "You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

(1) Your total income exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

(2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 220,000 baht in the tax year."

 

Lifted direct from the RD Website ?
 

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

This is understood to mean assessable income.

 

Understood to mean assessable income prior to the 01 Jan 2024 does not mean that the same applies post 01 Jan 2024, and doesn't say assessable income.

 

Perhaps best to let it drop and see what the new section being added to the tax return actually covers.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You are probably correct.

 

However the announcement that the RD was updating and adding an additional section to the tax return has caused some confusion.

 

If there are no changes in filing requirements why are they adding extra sections to the tax form.

The tax form is not where a change in filing requirements would usually appear.

 

As to what the changes/updates to the tax form will be, time will tell.  Perhaps make it easier to claim a tax credit for taxes paid to another country...but that is just a guess. 

[Mike Lister]

Tax filing forms are changed every year, which is why there are different links for each year, changes to the forms are not unique.

 

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax returns are modified frequently, potentially every year which is why there is a different download link for each year so this shouldn't cause any confusion. 

 

As far as the "who should file" question is concerned, the following is being added to the document, lifted directly from the RD:

 

1. Who must file a tax return? The English language translation of the RD rule says that, "You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

(1) Your total income exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

(2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 220,000 baht in the tax year."

 

This is understood to mean assessable income.

 

Yeah thanks for continuing to honcho this crap!  I don't plan on getting a TN unless there is a requirement put out by the government as I have zero assessible income - having only a US govt pension and while I continue to pay for a lot of things here, if they continue to push at the ex-pats then I might spend a lot less.  Right now I own a house in CM and lease a condo for my Thai college kid and lease a house in Bangkok so my wife and I can be near our daughter but far enough away to keep our two huskies.  I delayed getting another car but that is not as necessary as it used to be with the local train system.  But this means I spend a lot of $$$ (at least 100K) plus charge a lot too for groceries, tuition, restaurants, etc and will slow a lot of that down as I am sure other ex-pats will do too.  I chat with some in the PI and there was a mention of a similar track there but they decided it would cost them more than they would get back from the ex-pats.  Similar stories in other ASEAN countries too about a new

tax on ex-pats but most pensions were mentioned as not affected at all.  take care keep up this almost thankless assistance for all.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The tax form is not where a change in filing requirements would usually appear.

 

Yes, I agree

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

As to what the changes/updates to the tax form will be, time will tell.  Perhaps make it easier to claim a tax credit for taxes paid to another country...but that is just a guess. 

 

Again, I agree and no point in speculating over what it might contain.

 

All I can remember was that it was reported by Mazars ( I think ) and came from the original announced September announcement by the RD.

 

It was certainly posted somewhere in the 200 page long thread.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax filing forms are changed every year, which is why there are different links for each year, changes to the forms are not unique.

 

 

Agreed.

 

But I think that adding a whole new section is pretty unique,especially coupled with Septembers RD announcement.

 

Mazars reported it from the original September announcement and ithe relevant part was reposted in the 200 page long thread.

 

As I cannot recall the exact details, it might be something you want to dig out and add to your tax guide.

[jerrymahoney]

8 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, I agree

 

 

Again, I agree and no point in speculating over what it might contain.

 

All I can remember was that it was reported by Mazars ( I think ) and came from the original announced September announcement by the RD.

 

It was certainly posted somewhere in the 200 page long thread.

 

Thailand Tax – Foreign-sourced income to become taxable from 2024

 

It is also important to mention the taxpayer’s burden in providing proof of foreign tax credit. Where Thai domestic law is still silent about a foreign tax credit available for individual taxpayers under this circumstance, a provision under double tax treaties could provide relief from any double tax arising. However, the conditions, methodologies, and documents supporting the claim are still unclear.

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

 

 

[bigt3116]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:58 AM, Mike Lister said:

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links

 

Please post the link to that.    :-)

 

[jerrymahoney]

4 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

On 1/6/2024 at 8:58 AM, Mike Lister said:

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links

 

Please post the link to that.    :-)

 

5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

[bigt3116]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

 

Thanks, but that says "should", not must.

 

:-)

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Please post the link to that.    :-)

 

Rule 18   :)

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

[bigt3116]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:58 AM, Mike Lister said:

 

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links, please post the link and the quote showing where those things are true and correct. 

 

Rule 18 states "Social media content is acceptable in most forums. However in factual areas such as but not limited to news, current affairs and health topics, social media cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or a government agency, and must include a link to the original source", the post you said needed a link did not quote any social media?

[jerrymahoney]

28 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Thanks, but that says "should", not must.

 

:-)

3. ASEAN NOW is a privately owned commercial website. We reserve the right to remove or block any user, user created content or files from the ASEAN NOW forums for any reason and at our discretion.

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Rule 18 states "Social media content is acceptable in most forums. However in factual areas such as but not limited to news, current affairs and health topics, social media cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or a government agency, and must include a link to the original source", the post you said needed a link did not quote any social media?

Give it a rest, some of us are trying to move forward the tax issues. if you have difficulty with this, talk to a moderator and they will tell you the same things we have. At the same time, you may wish to confirm your application to them for the role of moderator and see what they say! Out

[KhunLA]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:26 AM, retarius said:

My US accountants have told me that US SS payments made over here are exempt under a 1998 DTA. I have no tax withheld from my SS payment (ca 100,000 Baht paid monthly into a special Bangkok account which has no debit card and from which, funds much be withdrawn in person to prevent any fraud after death).

 

I have a private pension which is the bulk of my income, but they will not pay it into any foreign bank, so that builds up in a US account. I have a 401k that I take out a sum annually, to pay alimony to my ex, and to pay all taxes for the year in question. I also transfer money from this 401K to give me extra spending money here. If I run short during the year, I have a transfer made from the account in the US that receives my pension. It is these two types of transfers I am most worried about. My accounts say they cannot tell me anything until they know what the new system will be, and which hasn't been announced yet.

 

This is my own very simple system, but may run aground if the proofs of having paid taxes on the transfers are  tied to individual transfers rather than the annual totals. Where I foresee difficulties is that I pay all of my US taxes in February following the tax year, (so in Feb 2024 I will pay for all estimated taxes for 2023) but have no receipt for it, except the 401K slip.

 

I file my US taxes with the IRS on October 15th of each year for the preceding year. Thus, I will not have my total tax return for the US available until then, which would be the major proof that taxes had been paid on all of my income. My worry is that the Thai tax department may want their taxes much earlier than that, and find some way of making me pay. I will then be in. position of being a foreigner trying to reclaim Thai taxes paid from the Thai tax department. I NEVER WANT TO BE IN THAT SITUATION.

 

We have to wait and see what system the Thai government come up with to make us pay this tax here. I have been told by commenters on here that 'the only way to do it is on an annual tax return'. I disagree with this because there is never 'only one way', and the Thai government might come up with some sort of scheme that robs me. 

 

Thanks for posting.  My situation mirrors yours, abet, no ex or alimony.  SS a wee bit less than yours, and company pension (a pittance), that I don't transfer in to my TH account, but simply take an ATM withdrawal every other month or so.   Just to get it out of the USA, in case I crap out, and one less thing for wife to concern herself with.

 

Don't even file USA return as under the amount requiring, so if they figure out a way to tax my ATM withdrawals, don't think there is much of a chance of me recovering that tax, since none paid to USA.

 

Instead of ATM withdrawals, may just use the pension funds for online shopping, by-passing any local bank, and avoid any notice that way.   It really is a pittance / $357 a month, and wouldn't take much to spend.

 

I'm personally not going to bother getting a tax #, or filing in TH, as by the time the figure out how to get us all in the system, I'll probably be dead.  If they are as fast at instituting the tax law, as they are traffic laws & now registration of cars.  Decades on those policies and millions simply trash their traffic citations.

 

Though I do suspect, there will be a new 'tax report' form that will need to be submitted in 2025, when extending our marriage or retirement visas.  As too simple to require that for folks to comply.  No tax receipt-no extension.