Hamas: Oct 7 was 'necessary, normal response' to 'Israeli conspiracies'

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Incorrect. They have been carrying deadly weapons since 1994

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/26/world/west-bank-massacre-settlers-allowed-to-carry-guns.html

 

 

Incorrect how? I stated clearly that things are different for the illegal settlers in the West Bank. Rules are (were) different for Israelis living in Israel proper - as is the case with the areas attacked by Hamas on 7/10.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Me too, we agree.

 

However, they will keep doing it until they get an independent state. This is the only solution.

 

Can you agree that Bibi & his right wing pals have been an obstacle to peace since 1996? Can you agree that Bibi helped Hamas become what they are?

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

Hamas's agenda is not about an 'independent state' existing peacefully alongside Israel.

It is about a Palestine replacing Israel.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Hamas: Oct 7 was 'necessary, normal response' to 'Israeli conspiracies'.

I don't think the Oct 7th Hamas massacres were either a "necessary" or "normal" response to Israeli conspiracies, but I do think there are extreme, right-wing Israeli (Zionist) conspiracies to complete the Jewish takeover of the land that was once called Palestine.  

 

 

There was no takeover of the Gaza Strip. There were no plans for such.

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Incorrect how? I stated clearly that things are different for the illegal settlers in the West Bank. Rules are (were) different for Israelis living in Israel proper - as is the case with the areas attacked by Hamas on 7/10.

You said it was recent, they have been doing it for 30 years

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

You said it was recent, they have been doing it for 30 years

 

The 'recent' bit was about the part where this is currently applied to all citizens of Israel. My post was highlighting a change in policy compared to previous years.

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Hamas's agenda is not about an 'independent state' existing peacefully alongside Israel.

It is about a Palestine replacing Israel.

 

We need to separate Hamas' agenda and the agenda for a Palestinian state.

 

Talking about Hamas endlessly is exactly what Bibi and his right wing pals want. While we are busy commenting on Hamas and their ideology, we are not talking about the injustices Palestinians face each and every day of their miserable lives.

 

I am strongly in favor of current EU rumors - they are talking about enforcing a Palestinian state and recognizing them immediately. Giving them a state and putting the PA in charge of Gaza might bring about an end to this.

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

The 'recent' bit was about the part where this is currently applied to all citizens of Israel. My post was highlighting a change in policy compared to previous years.

Sorry, I misread your post.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

My problem is I feel for both sides.

 

This problem was caused by western racists - our ancestors who forced Jews out of their home countries across Europe and Russia. These pogroms effectively forced the Jewish people to find somewhere safe to live. Nazi Germany was the epitome of racism, and heralded the dawn of Israel as we know it today. We caused this problem. If we were not so racist in the past, these Jewish people would still be living in their home countries, and I assume the Jews, Christians and Arabs living in British Mandate for Palestine would still be living happily together in what would now be Palestine.

 

Unfortunately, I also recognize the plight of Arabs who were massacred, disenfranchised and robbed of their homes and lands when Israel was formed. Whilst I recognize and defend the right of Israel to exist, it should have been done differently. Two states should have been set up, not only one for one party. The land should have been divided fairly, or one state with a democratically elected, secular governing body.

 

Western bias makes me increasingly angry, we only ever hear from one side. You have to actively find information about the other side's plight. I am not surprised that there are so many people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge any crimes by Israel, the media feeds them a diet of 'Israel is a wonderful democracy, and it is always the victim' whilst ignoring the realities on the ground. Douglas Murray really gets under my skin every time I see his smug, fascist face on Talk TV. I deplore the racist overtones (they aren't shy, we can't say undertones!) of Talk TV - but I must watch it to see what the other side is saying.

 

Nothing much in your posts betrays anything resembling balance. Spare the nonsense - you're not even-handed. Spewing off nonsense about Jews, Christians and Arabs living 'happily together' during the British Mandate raises the question if you even got much clue as to what you're posting about.

 

There were two countries announced. One side accepted, the other rejected. All of the nonsense you pour ignores this basic fact. There wasn't only one country 'set up' for 'one party'. Your notions of a one-state were not applicable then, and are not applicable now. That you state what 'should have' does not carry a whole lot of weight given your obvious lack of facts and detail.

 

Western bias, racism yada yada yada....as if you have something better on offer from other parties.

 

You're not half the salesperson you imagine you are.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

We need to separate Hamas' agenda and the agenda for a Palestinian state.

 

Talking about Hamas endlessly is exactly what Bibi and his right wing pals want. While we are busy commenting on Hamas and their ideology, we are not talking about the injustices Palestinians face each and every day of their miserable lives.

 

I am strongly in favor of current EU rumors - they are talking about enforcing a Palestinian state and recognizing them immediately. Giving them a state and putting the PA in charge of Gaza might bring about an end to this.

 

   There have been suggestions of making a artificial Gaza sized island  in the Mediterranean , a few mils off shore .

   Gulf countries have made numerus artificial islands and this could be a satisfactory solution to all concerned 

[Brickleberry]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Hamas's agenda is not about an 'independent state' existing peacefully alongside Israel.

It is about a Palestine replacing Israel.

 

And I forgot to mention, Hamas does actually want a two state solution. In 2017 their charter was amended to recognise the state of Israel, and for Palestine to have a state based on the borders set in 1967

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/10/10/23911661/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestine-explainer

Quote

At its core, Hamas wants an independent Palestinian state, one that, according to its 2017 manifesto, would at the very least include the land Palestinians held in 1967, a position Israeli governments have long said is out of the question. It also wants greater political power, both in Palestine and internationally.

“Its ultimate goal is the liberation of all of historic Palestine, but Hamas has declared its willingness to reach a long-term cease-fire with Israel in exchange for full withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza and the creation of a Palestinian state,” Syracuse University Middle Eastern history professor Osamah Khalil told Vox.

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

We need to separate Hamas' agenda and the agenda for a Palestinian state.

 

Talking about Hamas endlessly is exactly what Bibi and his right wing pals want. While we are busy commenting on Hamas and their ideology, we are not talking about the injustices Palestinians face each and every day of their miserable lives.

 

I am strongly in favor of current EU rumors - they are talking about enforcing a Palestinian state and recognizing them immediately. Giving them a state and putting the PA in charge of Gaza might bring about an end to this.

 

No, 'we' don't. You do not speak for any 'we'.

You may want to separate things, making it easier for you to ignore facts. But then you try to do your meager best to minimize, normalize Hamas's agenda, actions.

 

You can be strongly in favor of whatever nonsense. How will the EU 'enforce' this, exactly? Will the EU ignore Hamas as well? How will the PA be 'put in charge' of the Gaza Strip? You know nothing, you have nothing.

[Brickleberry]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Nothing much in your posts betrays anything resembling balance. Spare the nonsense - you're not even-handed. Spewing off nonsense about Jews, Christians and Arabs living 'happily together' during the British Mandate raises the question if you even got much clue as to what you're posting about.

 

There were two countries announced. One side accepted, the other rejected. All of the nonsense you pour ignores this basic fact. There wasn't only one country 'set up' for 'one party'. Your notions of a one-state were not applicable then, and are not applicable now. That you state what 'should have' does not carry a whole lot of weight given your obvious lack of facts and detail.

 

Western bias, racism yada yada yada....as if you have something better on offer from other parties.

 

You're not half the salesperson you imagine you are.

Factually incorrect. Take it from a Jewish source:

https://promisedlandmuseum.org/peaceful-palestine/

Palestinian Jews Lived Peacefully Alongside Christians and Muslims for Years

The word “Palestine” has historically been used to refer to the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. However, perhaps what the land was called is less significant than the interactions between the people who lived there together for centuries.

The first moving picture featuring Palestine was captured by the Lumière brothers in 1896. The video shows the following:

• • • Successful businesses operating peacefully 
    • A bustling train station 
    • Jews, Christians, and Muslims living and praying in the same community

Palestine had been under the control of the Muslim Ottoman Turks since the 1800s. Before 1917, residents of multiple faiths lived together in peace. In contrast to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, violence between faith groups was rare.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There have been suggestions of making a artificial Gaza sized island  in the Mediterranean , a few mils off shore .

   Gulf countries have made numerus artificial islands and this could be a satisfactory solution to all concerned 

 

Not that nonsense again.

There were no such 'offers'.

It's a pet project of the current Israeli Foreign Minister, which he pushed for when he was in another ministerial post some years ago.

Apparently some kind of obsession with him, showing clips about it to foreign representatives at any occasion, whether related or not.

It is neither relevant, nor feasible.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

And I forgot to mention, Hamas does actually want a two state solution. In 2017 their charter was amended to recognise the state of Israel, and for Palestine to have a state based on the borders set in 1967

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/10/10/23911661/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestine-explainer

 

 

 

   Did you even read your own link ?

 

“Its ultimate goal is the liberation of all of historic Palestine, but Hamas has declared its willingness to reach a long-term cease-fire with Israel in exchange for full withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza and the creation of a Palestinian state,” Syracuse University Middle Eastern history professor Osamah Khalil told Vox."

 

   Did you not  understand what that means ?

The creation of a Palestinian state and eventually all the land being a Palestine 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

And I forgot to mention, Hamas does actually want a two state solution. In 2017 their charter was amended to recognise the state of Israel, and for Palestine to have a state based on the borders set in 1967

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/10/10/23911661/hamas-israel-war-gaza-palestine-explainer

 

 

No. What the Hamas says is that it will accept a temporary 1967 lines Palestine, without acknowledging Israel, or it's rights.

That's not quite the same thing.

 

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No. What the Hamas says is that it will accept a temporary 1967 lines Palestine, without acknowledging Israel, or it's rights.

That's not quite the same thing.

 

I'll check that.

 

EDIT: Turns out you are correct. I apologize.

Edited January 23 by Brickleberry

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Factually incorrect. Take it from a Jewish source:

https://promisedlandmuseum.org/peaceful-palestine/

Palestinian Jews Lived Peacefully Alongside Christians and Muslims for Years

The word “Palestine” has historically been used to refer to the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. However, perhaps what the land was called is less significant than the interactions between the people who lived there together for centuries.

The first moving picture featuring Palestine was captured by the Lumière brothers in 1896. The video shows the following:

• • • Successful businesses operating peacefully 
    • A bustling train station 
    • Jews, Christians, and Muslims living and praying in the same community

Palestine had been under the control of the Muslim Ottoman Turks since the 1800s. Before 1917, residents of multiple faiths lived together in peace. In contrast to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, violence between faith groups was rare.

 

You're cherry picking.

 

There were times of relative peace, there were times of.....not:

 

1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine

 

Life under Ottoman rule was nothing as idyllic as you paint. You don't know much, do you?

[JCauto]

15 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

My problem is I feel for both sides.

 

This problem was caused by western racists - our ancestors who forced Jews out of their home countries across Europe and Russia. These pogroms effectively forced the Jewish people to find somewhere safe to live. Nazi Germany was the epitome of racism, and heralded the dawn of Israel as we know it today. We caused this problem. If we were not so racist in the past, these Jewish people would still be living in their home countries, and I assume the Jews, Christians and Arabs living in British Mandate for Palestine would still be living happily together in what would now be Palestine.

 

Unfortunately, I also recognize the plight of Arabs who were massacred, disenfranchised and robbed of their homes and lands when Israel was formed. Whilst I recognize and defend the right of Israel to exist, it should have been done differently. Two states should have been set up, not only one for one party. The land should have been divided fairly, or one state with a democratically elected, secular governing body.

 

Western bias makes me increasingly angry, we only ever hear from one side. You have to actively find information about the other side's plight. I am not surprised that there are so many people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge any crimes by Israel, the media feeds them a diet of 'Israel is a wonderful democracy, and it is always the victim' whilst ignoring the realities on the ground. Douglas Murray really gets under my skin every time I see his smug, fascist face on Talk TV. I deplore the racist overtones (they aren't shy, we can't say undertones!) of Talk TV - but I must watch it to see what the other side is saying.

 

I feel for both sides as well, as should any empathetic person. But there's fundamental differences. Yes, you got the original problem correct, but you diverged somewhere in paragraph 2 before going off the rails in para 3. I don't even know who Douglas Murray or what Talk TV is.

 

The history of the establishment of Israel and pre-Israeli Palestinian history is complex and controversial. Because it offers avenues for different sides to "claim" things, it is going to be forever fought over and never agreed upon. I don't think a topic exists that is more suited to "whataboutism" and two people can just trade those from now until entropic death. While there were Arabs displaced in Israel, it seems seldom mentioned how the Jews were pretty much all expelled from their homes in the surrounding lands where they'd also lived for centuries. The difference being that of course they could go to Israel whereas the Arabs aren't keen on accepting their fellow displaced Muslims.

 

I don't think there was some magical solution out there to make this all Kumbaya, but there were considerable efforts made to try to get peace to occur. The Oslo Accords, etc. They were rejected unfortunately, and while the deal would have been skewed towards the Israeli interest as they held the upper hand in terms of power at the time, by summarily rejecting it and not trying to develop their own areas in favour of continuous conflict, they have ended up in this place. Extremists on both sides have been delighted to maintain this unhappy status quo and whenever there seems to be a chance for it to stop they make damn sure things ramp up again. Recall that Hamas leadership stated very clearly just before and after this kicked off that the driving impetus behind these attacks was the potential peace deal between the Saudis and the Israelis, something they simply would not accept and would do anything to scuttle. So they have. Remember what happened to Yitzhak Rabin when he tried to play peacemaker - a fanatic from the Israeli Right murdered him.

Hamas have never changed their charter or policy which is to drive every Israeli into the sea. They reject any peace talks, they inculcate hatred into their children from an early age, they broke the ceasefire and attacked civilian populations without attempting to attack any military installations. They have used the billions in aid they receive to build tunnels and buy weapons and pay terrorists who successfully murder Jews. Until Hamas is crippled and their leadership is eliminated this will not change.

 

As to journalism and coverage, how is it that nobody is talking about the geo-political roots of this current conflict and how it is obviously tied to the Russia-Ukraine War. Putin is clearly the winner in the Israel-Hamas conflict and they've thrown the weight of the Russian disinformation machine behind Hamas. It's how so many of the "enlightened" on the Left in the West have been happily re-broadcasting the Hamas propaganda. So the idea that this is all "one-way journalism" is absurd to me, it's just that "journalism" is so different than what we had before it's not being recognized. It's information and culture war without reliable sources who are dispassionate and objective.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

I'll check that.

 

Read your own link.

[Bkk Brian]

24 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

We need to separate Hamas' agenda and the agenda for a Palestinian state.

 

Talking about Hamas endlessly is exactly what Bibi and his right wing pals want. While we are busy commenting on Hamas and their ideology, we are not talking about the injustices Palestinians face each and every day of their miserable lives.

 

I am strongly in favor of current EU rumors - they are talking about enforcing a Palestinian state and recognizing them immediately. Giving them a state and putting the PA in charge of Gaza might bring about an end to this.

I am strongly in favor of current EU rumors - they are talking about enforcing a Palestinian state and recognizing them immediately. Giving them a state and putting the PA in charge of Gaza might bring about an end to this.

 

How does that gel with the recent EU Parliament resolution for that demands the dismantling of Hamas and return of all hostages with no pre conditions before any ceasefire? Only once that has been achieved are further recommendations made on humanitarian aid, solutions etc

[Brickleberry]

14 minutes ago, JCauto said:

 

I feel for both sides as well, as should any empathetic person. But there's fundamental differences. Yes, you got the original problem correct, but you diverged somewhere in paragraph 2 before going off the rails in para 3. I don't even know who Douglas Murray or what Talk TV is.

 

The history of the establishment of Israel and pre-Israeli Palestinian history is complex and controversial. Because it offers avenues for different sides to "claim" things, it is going to be forever fought over and never agreed upon. I don't think a topic exists that is more suited to "whataboutism" and two people can just trade those from now until entropic death. While there were Arabs displaced in Israel, it seems seldom mentioned how the Jews were pretty much all expelled from their homes in the surrounding lands where they'd also lived for centuries. The difference being that of course they could go to Israel whereas the Arabs aren't keen on accepting their fellow displaced Muslims.

 

I don't think there was some magical solution out there to make this all Kumbaya, but there were considerable efforts made to try to get peace to occur. The Oslo Accords, etc. They were rejected unfortunately, and while the deal would have been skewed towards the Israeli interest as they held the upper hand in terms of power at the time, by summarily rejecting it and not trying to develop their own areas in favour of continuous conflict, they have ended up in this place. Extremists on both sides have been delighted to maintain this unhappy status quo and whenever there seems to be a chance for it to stop they make damn sure things ramp up again. Recall that Hamas leadership stated very clearly just before and after this kicked off that the driving impetus behind these attacks was the potential peace deal between the Saudis and the Israelis, something they simply would not accept and would do anything to scuttle. So they have. Remember what happened to Yitzhak Rabin when he tried to play peacemaker - a fanatic from the Israeli Right murdered him.

Hamas have never changed their charter or policy which is to drive every Israeli into the sea. They reject any peace talks, they inculcate hatred into their children from an early age, they broke the ceasefire and attacked civilian populations without attempting to attack any military installations. They have used the billions in aid they receive to build tunnels and buy weapons and pay terrorists who successfully murder Jews. Until Hamas is crippled and their leadership is eliminated this will not change.

 

As to journalism and coverage, how is it that nobody is talking about the geo-political roots of this current conflict and how it is obviously tied to the Russia-Ukraine War. Putin is clearly the winner in the Israel-Hamas conflict and they've thrown the weight of the Russian disinformation machine behind Hamas. It's how so many of the "enlightened" on the Left in the West have been happily re-broadcasting the Hamas propaganda. So the idea that this is all "one-way journalism" is absurd to me, it's just that "journalism" is so different than what we had before it's not being recognized. It's information and culture war without reliable sources who are dispassionate and objective.

 

I LOVE this post. Thank you

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

I'll check that.

 

EDIT: Turns out you are correct. I apologize.

 

Notice a trend here?

[JCauto]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Morch, I disagree with you. I believe the Zionist faction in Isreal has plans to expel ALL Palestinians from what is now called "Israel." And I believe they're using the Oct 7 attack as justification to do that. There have even been reports suggesting that the Zionists knew Hamas was planning this attack but did nothing to stop it, presumably so they would have this reason to decimate Gaza and the West Bank. There is even a suggestion that the Zionists actually FUNDED Hamas. How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas - The New York Times (nytimes.com). Even I stop at believing that.
 
I do expect they will not stop now until they control ALL of Gaza and the West Bank and will continue to siez land until they are successful at driving all  Palestinians out of the state that used to be called Palestine.  

Yes, there are some factions who want that, they are the extreme Right and religious parties. Israel is a democracy with dozens of factions. Those factions are fringe parties although they have managed to attain some power within this awful far-Right Israeli government of Netanyahu. However they will be voted out in the next election for the mess they made. They have been trying to co-opt the judiciary's power as well, but hundreds of thousands went into the street to stop it. Israel is a democracy. Arab Israelis vote and their representatives sit in the Knesset (their Parliament).

 

Hamas last held a vote in 2005 and executed much of their PLO opposition in Gaza. They are the ones in control and have been since that time. Their policy is unequivocal and they have never recanted it despite numerous opportunities to do so. There is a difference, can you see that?

[WDSmart]

10 minutes ago, JCauto said:

Yes, there are some factions who want that, they are the extreme Right and religious parties. Israel is a democracy with dozens of factions. Those factions are fringe parties although they have managed to attain some power within this awful far-Right Israeli government of Netanyahu. 

 

Hamas last held a vote in 2005 and executed much of their PLO opposition in Gaza. They are the ones in control and have been since that time. Their policy is unequivocal and they have never recanted it despite numerous opportunities to do so. There is a difference, can you see that?

No, I don't see much of a difference between the two extreme, right-wing, nationalistic factions of either side: Hamas and Zionists. It seems like they are both in control of the military efforts at this time.

I do see a difference in whose land that should be, and that is it should be Palestine, not Isreal. I'd like to see a one-state solution, one where the land is occupied by both sides equally. I'm not in favor of a two-state solution where the Palestinians are forced to live in two small areas, and the Israelis occupy the rest of the land. What I think will happen will be a one-state solution where there will ONLY be Jews, no Palestinians or Muslims at all, or if there are, they will not be given full rights as citizens. 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I don't see much of a difference between the two extreme, right-wing, nationalistic factions of either side: Hamas and Zionists. It seems like they are both in control of the military efforts at this time.

I do see a difference in whose land that should be, and that is it should be Palestine, not Isreal. I'd like to see a one-state solution, one where the land is occupied by both sides equally. I'm not in favor of a two-state solution where the Palestinians are forced to live in two small areas, and the Israelis occupy the rest of the land. What I think will happen will be a one-state solution where there will ONLY be Jews, no Palestinians or Muslims at all, or if there are, they will not be given full rights as citizens. 

 

You have a very foggy grasp of things. Starting from your use of 'Zionists'. The rest of the nonsense follows.

[Brickleberry]

@JCauto Whilst I really like your post, there are some things to mention when talking about Israeli democracy

 

1) They are not quite equal. Israel distinguishes between citizenship and nationality, and this affects your quality of life. The passage of an Israeli law in 2018 establishing Israel as the “nation state of the Jewish people,” which was seen as effectively deeming non-Jewish residents second-class citizens.

2) Over 50 percent of Arab citizens in Israel (not the occupied territories) live under the poverty line. They also have a considerably lower life expectancy, a higher infant mortality rate, less access to education and resources as well as less municipality and government funding. 

3) Most land inside the green line is off limits to Palestinian citizens of Israel. A large percentage of land in Israel is under the control of the Jewish National Fund, which has a specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. 

4) Housing committees decide who can live in each community, with Arab citizens often refused permission to build/lease a house because their religion or race does not fit with the 'character of the community'.

 

Whilst they do have a democratic government, it is not a fair one if you are not Jewish.

 

Edited January 23 by Brickleberry

[Bkk Brian]

Released hostages have their stories to tell and Hamas expects the world not to believe them................

 

In testimony screened during the Knesset Hostages Caucus hearing earlier this month, Agam Goldstein-Almog described how at one point she and her mother were moved into a tunnel where six women were being held.

“Many girls underwent severe sexual abuse,” she said. “They had serious and complex wounds that were not being cared for.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/right-now-someone-is-being-raped-in-a-tunnel-knesset-hears-of-hamas-sex-crimes

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

@JCauto Whilst I really like your post, there are some things to mention when talking about Israeli democracy

 

1) They are not quite equal. Israel distinguishes between citizenship and nationality, and this affects your quality of life. The passage of an Israeli law in 2018 establishing Israel as the “nation state of the Jewish people,” which was seen as effectively deeming non-Jewish residents second-class citizens.

2) Over 50 percent of Arab citizens in Israel (not the occupied territories) live under the poverty line. They also have a considerably lower life expectancy, a higher infant mortality rate, less access to education and resources as well as less municipality and government funding. 

3) Most land inside the green line is off limits to Palestinian citizens of Israel. A large percentage of land in Israel is under the control of the Jewish National Fund, which has a specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. 

4) Housing committees decide who can live in each community, with Arab citizens often refused permission to build/lease a house because their religion or race does not fit with the 'character of the community'.

 

Whilst they do have a democratic government, it is not a fair one if you are not Jewish.

 

 

Nobody claimed Israel is perfect.

This has little to do with the topic at hand, though.

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Released hostages have their stories to tell and Hamas expects the world not to believe them................

 

In testimony screened during the Knesset Hostages Caucus hearing earlier this month, Agam Goldstein-Almog described how at one point she and her mother were moved into a tunnel where six women were being held.

“Many girls underwent severe sexual abuse,” she said. “They had serious and complex wounds that were not being cared for.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/right-now-someone-is-being-raped-in-a-tunnel-knesset-hears-of-hamas-sex-crimes

 

I actually read the whole article, and the women that spoke at hearing were not raped. One of the women said she 'thought a girl was raped when she came back from the bathroom' by the look on the girls face - she did not hear it or see it.

 

In another instance she says; " I saw it with my own eyes" but doesn't go into any detail, doesn't name any hostages that were raped, and doesn't say how it happened.

 

Again, I am not saying that there were 0 rapes, but there is no evidence in the link you supplied.

Edited January 23 by Brickleberry

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I actually read the whole article, and the women that spoke at hearing were not raped. One of the women said she 'thought a girl was raped when she came back from the bathroom' by the look on the girls face - she did not hear it or see it.

 

In another instance she says; " I saw it with my own eyes" but doesn't go into any detail, doesn't name any hostages that were raped, and doesn't say how it happened.

 

Again, I am not saying that there were 0 rapes, but there is no evidence in the link you supplied.

 

I read your post. And the previous one where you try to cast doubts on this. Them attempts to whitewash Hamas.

Could say a whole lot of things. Could point out to plenty of references (which were already posted numerous times on these topics).

 

But when it comes down to it, what I think when I see your forum handle and garbage comments - 'this guy is a used butt plug'.

I think that sums you up pretty well.

Edited January 23 by Morch