Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You keep changing the meanings of words .

I am going to call an airplane a boat and I will fly by boat next time I go to Mars , I am now calling Thailand Mars , so I will fly by boat to Mars later this apple , I now call years apples 

All that sounds very poetic to me. I wish you luck in your efforts. 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

 

I guess you're referring to Hamas, plenty of commentary within the international community claiming it's an unachievable objective... 

Yeah, in the same way that the Nazis have not been eradicated. 

 

But you dodged the question. Do you support the eradication of Hamas? 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Brother we are on the same page let's us fight together for a fairer progressive world for all and assuage the sins of the past by building a better future, inshallah.

 

  Would you also use Hebrew words when speaking to an Arab ?

When speaking to an Arab, end up with saying "If the Jews God wills it" ?

They might take that as an insult 

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Brother we are on the same page let's us fight together for a fairer progressive world for all and assuage the sins of the past by building a better future, inshallah.

If you could do anything (but change human nature) with a snap of your fingers, how would you make the world fairer for all? 

 

 

[ozimoron]

25 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

If you could do anything (but change human nature) with a snap of your fingers, how would you make the world fairer for all?

 

dead simple. One man one vote. Everybody must vote by law. And if I have another wish it would be that votes would be ranked choice aka preferential voting. If I have a third wish it would be enshrining the separation of church and state in international law.

 

If none of this seems relevant to the Palestinian question, think again.

 

Edited February 4 by ozimoron

[Morch]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

IMO, no matter WHAT type of settlement is reached, and especially if NO settlement is ever reached, there will be unbelievable "discomfort, problems and hardship for both sides."

 

Don't chop my posts, please.

 

What you believe is none of my concern. You believe all sort of stuff which is either wrong or out there.

 

What you posted is a deflection. I addressed your nonsense 'plan', you cannot deal with it. Same old.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

 

How could the civilian population remove Hamas? Do they not rule at the point of a gun. So far as I know zero authoritarian governments in the M.E. , excepting Iran, have never been overthrown by the local population  in any case the overthrow of the Shah just led to even more vicious rulers; same with Egypt.

 

Same as other places. Go out there and protest. Is there a risk involved? Sure. But some posters on here cited polls they claimed showed 60-70% dissatisfaction with Hamas among Gazans. Rule by the gun or not, it would be very hard to control and contain protests backed up by such support. Nothing said about it being easy or anything.

 

Hamas's ethos is that it's a grassroots, people's movement. It would be nigh impossible for them to completely disregard sustained popular action. The issue is more with nipping in the bud thing (same as when they took over and co-opted that March of Return). But impossible? No.

 

I'm not going into an argument/discussion about resistance/reform movements in the ME. But things like the protests in Iran, or the initial phases of the Syrian Civil War, or indeed, the Arab Spring - are all manifestations of such.

 

The way I see it, this has more to do with how Palestinian society and politics developed over the years. The authoritative nature of rule just expanded from the family level to the national one. Even elections, when held, are not so much about issues, but about clan ties/bloc voting and so on. There's not a whole lot of civic awareness, and the basics of democracy are not well internalized. This comes on top of the refugee status thing, and the ineptness of leaderships over the years - both further fostering a civic/political passive stance which is hard to change.

 

In that sense, Hamas's elections victory (back then...) was somewhat different. People still voted in line with old allegiances, but there was also a sense of it being about good governance, anti-corruption, civil rights etc. Of course, it turned out to be a sham, more like an election time facade. 

 

In general, these topics tend to exhibit a tendency of giving Palestinians a free pass. There are no expectations that the population will push for anything different, that it will be more involved or demand something of its leaders (whether Hamas or the PA). Same thing, basically, when discussing diplomatic issues pertaining to the conflict - posters often focus on Israel, while somehow accepting/implying that the Palestinians are essentially play a passive part in things. Like they cannot initiate anything etc.

 

I don't think this is a reasonable or sustainable proposition/state of things. It's almost absurd, considering all them cries about a Palestinian State. What, in current and past Palestinian politics gives any indication that they could run one? And no, I'm not saying this as a denial of their right to a state of their own - but as an observation on the prospects of such a state, if and when.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I don't "support" either side, but both sides hold hostages. On one side, they are called "hostages," and on the other side, they are called "detainees" or "prisoners." And both sides have committed atrocities, which include the killing and terrorizing of regular citizens. 

 

Hamas took hostages with the intent of leveraging their release in return for political gains. Israel's arrests and detentions are not about that. It's not the same thing.

 

This was was started by Hamas. On 7/10.  It upped the ante significantly with regard to atrocities. You're shooting for same same. 

 

Go on and tell me how you're not  a Hamas apologist.

[Morch]

49 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

dead simple. One man one vote. Everybody must vote by law. And if I have another wish it would be that votes would be ranked choice aka preferential voting. If I have a third wish it would be enshrining the separation of church and state in international law.

 

If none of this seems relevant to the Palestinian question, think again.

 

 

@ozimoron

 

It's irrelevant. Period.

 

 

[ozimoron]

 

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Well, it's nice to see that at least they are safe and have plenty to eat now, good news that! 

 

Thanks for the video.

[Bkk Brian]

"Mr Sunak said he welcomed the opening of a humanitarian corridor into Gaza." He added that he knew Israel was "taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians - in contrast to the terrorists of Hamas".

 

'The UK stands with you' - Rishi Sunak meets Israel's PM and president

"You have suffered an unspeakable, horrific act of terrorism and I want you to know that the United Kingdom, and I, stand with you. 

Mr Netanyahu said the current situation will be "a long war", and Israel will "need" the UK's "continual support".

Mr Sunak said he welcomed the opening of a humanitarian corridor into Gaza.

https://news.sky.com/story/the-uk-stands-with-you-sunak-says-as-he-arrives-for-talks-in-israel-12987348

[simple1]

14 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, in the same way that the Nazis have not been eradicated. 

 

But you dodged the question. Do you support the eradication of Hamas? 

 

 I've been a member of this forum since 2004 and never indicated support for terrorism - your post is nothing more than attempted personal attack - very childish.

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

 I've been a member of this forum since 2004 and never indicated support for terrorism - your post is nothing more than attempted personal attack - very childish.

How have you been attacked? By claiming you dodged as question? You seemed to have just dodged it again. 

 

Do you support the eradication of Hamas or not? 

 

I do not think I ever accused you of supporting terrorism. 

[Wobblybob]

16 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

 I've been a member of this forum since 2004 and never indicated support for terrorism - your post is nothing more than attempted personal attack - very childish.

@Yellowtail has not attacked you, he asked you a straightforward question, you are not obliged to answer it if you don't want to, but please don't accuse other posters of attacking you to get out of answering the question.

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Hamas took hostages with the intent of leveraging their release in return for political gains. Israel's arrests and detentions are not about that. It's not the same thing.

 

This was was started by Hamas. On 7/10.  It upped the ante significantly with regard to atrocities. You're shooting for same same. 

 

Go on and tell me how you're not  a Hamas apologist.

I do think especially all the recent "detainees" (no legal process) and "prisoners" (legally charged) taken by Israel were done with at least the possible intent of using them as bargaining chips for the hostages taken by Hamas on Oct 7.

This conflict started long before Oct 7. I do agree, however, that Hamas "upped the ante significantly with regard to atrocities" by their Oct 7 terrorist attack. And yes, the subsequent bombing atrocities in Gaza by the Israelis were definitely "same same." 

I'm not a Hamas apologist.

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I do think especially all the recent "detainees" (no legal process) and "prisoners" (legally charged) taken by Israel were done with at least the possible intent of using them as bargaining chips for the hostages taken by Hamas on Oct 7.

This conflict started long before Oct 7. I do agree, however, that Hamas "upped the ante significantly with regard to atrocities" by their Oct 7 terrorist attack. And yes, the subsequent bombing atrocities in Gaza by the Israelis were definitely "same same." 

I'm not a Hamas apologist.

 

What you 'think' is irrelevant, given your foggy grasp of things. You cannot support what you suggest, you're just spewing biased 'opinions' claiming they are as good as facts.

 

Same same is something you say, but fail to demonstrate. Hamas intended to kill civilians, Israel does not wage its war with such an intent. It's only the same in your mind.

 

You are posting rationalizations, justifications, talking points and generally try your meager best to normalize Hamas's actions. Call it what you will, but it's pretty obvious.

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What you 'think' is irrelevant, given your foggy grasp of things. You cannot support what you suggest, you're just spewing biased 'opinions' claiming they are as good as facts.

 

Same same is something you say, but fail to demonstrate. Hamas intended to kill civilians, Israel does not wage its war with such an intent. It's only the same in your mind.

 

You are posting rationalizations, justifications, talking points and generally try your meager best to normalize Hamas's actions. Call it what you will, but it's pretty obvious.

What I "think" is very relevant to me. And yes, what I "think" is based on my opinions, which are derived from a combination of facts (from a variety of sources), my own experience (in life, not specifically in Israel/Palestine), my reasoning ability, and my intuition. This is the way I've conducted myself throughout my entire life.

"Same same" is something we all might say. It means, to me, that the items being compared might not be exactly the same, but they have at least one important, relevant aspect that is the same as the other. In this case, that aspect is killing civilians who weren't activity involved in any terrorist or military activities. That was done horrifically on Oct 7 by Hamas and then for months afterward by the IDF.

I am not trying to "normalize" or "justify" Hamas' actions on Oct 7. I am also not trying to "normalize" and "justify" the IDF's actions of their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, which immediately followed. I call that looking at things from both perspectives and then describing what I have seen from a higher level. That's what I try to do in my posts here and in most of the rest of my life.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

What I "think" is very relevant to me. And yes, what I "think" is based on my opinions, which are derived from a combination of facts (from a variety of sources), my own experience (in life, not specifically in Israel/Palestine), my reasoning ability, and my intuition. This is the way I've conducted myself throughout my entire life.

"Same same" is something we all might say. It means, to me, that the items being compared might not be exactly the same, but they have at least one important, relevant aspect that is the same as the other. In this case, that aspect is killing civilians who weren't activity involved in any terrorist or military activities. That was done horrifically on Oct 7 by Hamas and then for months afterward by the IDF.

I am not trying to "normalize" or "justify" Hamas' actions on Oct 7. I am also not trying to "normalize" and "justify" the IDF's actions of their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, which immediately followed. I call that looking at things from both perspectives and then describing what I have seen from a higher level. That's what I try to do in my posts here and in most of the rest of my life.

 

On there topics, you have demonstrated, time and again, that your 'opinions', terminology, and grasp of things are tenuous. Hence my comment, and I think there are numerous examples supporting it. by now.

 

I'm not interested in your waffle, words games, oddball definitions and so on. Killing civilians by intentions is one thing, civilians getting killed in a war is another.

 

You are constantly broadcasting Hamas talking points, thus granting them a legitimate status. Spin it as much as you like.

Edited February 5 by Morch

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

What I "think" is very relevant to me. And yes, what I "think" is based on my opinions, which are derived from a combination of facts (from a variety of sources), my own experience (in life, not specifically in Israel/Palestine), my reasoning ability, and my intuition. This is the way I've conducted myself throughout my entire life.

"Same same" is something we all might say. It means, to me, that the items being compared might not be exactly the same, but they have at least one important, relevant aspect that is the same as the other. In this case, that aspect is killing civilians who weren't activity involved in any terrorist or military activities. That was done horrifically on Oct 7 by Hamas and then for months afterward by the IDF.

I am not trying to "normalize" or "justify" Hamas' actions on Oct 7. I am also not trying to "normalize" and "justify" the IDF's actions of their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, which immediately followed. I call that looking at things from both perspectives and then describing what I have seen from a higher level. That's what I try to do in my posts here and in most of the rest of my life.

 

Israel has shown so little regard for the protection of Palestinian civilians that it easily falls into the category of indiscriminate and is therefore a war crime. There simply isn't an excuse for killing 18,000 women and children and then continuing even after being ordered by the ICJ to stop. Nothing about this killing can even remotely be described as proportionate.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Israel has shown so little regard for the protection of Palestinian civilians that it easily falls into the category of indiscriminate and is therefore a war crime. There simply isn't an excuse for killing 18,000 women and children and then continuing even after being ordered by the ICJ to stop. Nothing about this killing can even remotely be described as proportionate.

 

@ozimoron

 

There were several links on here, citing experts (not wannabe ones like yourself) opining Israel took more measures to protect civilian lives than most armies do or would.

 

If Israel had disregarded this, there would be no warnings, no time to evacuate, no hospitals left intact, and a whole lot more civilian casualties.

 

You do not decide war crimes, and you have but a propagandist notion of what these imply.

 

The ICJ did not actually order Israel to stop - that's your misleading version of things.

 

You and others who keep going on about 'proportionate' cannot, ever, address what would be considered 'proportionate'.

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I suggest you now go and get a copy of the provisional measure to read. I also suggest you link to your claim that its not fulfilling any other measures.

 

Link to ICJ, Order of 26 January 2024:

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

 

The Provisional Measures start at the end of page 26, paragraph 86 on.

 

 

Edited February 5 by Jeff the Chef

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Link to ICJ, Order of 26 January 2024:

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

 

 

There a few links to it already on this topic of 37 pages. 

 

Far easier to list the measures:

 

court states that Hamas must release all hostages with no pre conditions.

 

Provisional measures ruled by the judges of the ICJ:
Israel shall :
* take all measures to avoid breach of genocide treaty.
* insure that the IDF does not commit offences of genocide treaty.
*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
* take all measure to preserve evidence.
 * submit a report - in one month - describe its action to follow the provisions measures.

 

 

[ozimoron]

12 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There a few links to it already on this topic of 37 pages. 

 

Far easier to list the measures:

 

court states that Hamas must release all hostages with no pre conditions.

 

Provisional measures ruled by the judges of the ICJ:
Israel shall :
* take all measures to avoid breach of genocide treaty.
* insure that the IDF does not commit offences of genocide treaty.
*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
* take all measure to preserve evidence.
 * submit a report - in one month - describe its action to follow the provisions measures.

 

 

 

What happened here? Next to nothing.

 

*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
 

[Jeff the Chef]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There a few links to it already on this topic of 37 pages. 

 

Far easier to list the measures:

 

court states that Hamas must release all hostages with no pre conditions.

 

Provisional measures ruled by the judges of the ICJ:
Israel shall :
* take all measures to avoid breach of genocide treaty.
* insure that the IDF does not commit offences of genocide treaty.
*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
* take all measure to preserve evidence.
 * submit a report - in one month - describe its action to follow the provisions measures.

 

 

 If you want the proper wording of the order here is the actual wording:

 

THE COURT,
Indicates the following provisional measures: By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall, in accordance with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular:

(a) killing members of the group;
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and
(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit any acts described in point 1 above

 

 By sixteen votes to one,

 

 

The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

 

By sixteen votes to one,

 

The State of Israel shall take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip; 

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of Article II and Article III of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide against members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order within one month as from the date of this Order.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 If you want the proper wording of the order here is the actual wording:

 

THE COURT,
Indicates the following provisional measures: By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall, in accordance with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular:

(a) killing members of the group;
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and
(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit any acts described in point 1 above

 

 By sixteen votes to one,

 

 

The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

 

By sixteen votes to one,

 

The State of Israel shall take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip; 

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of Article II and Article III of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide against members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

 

By fifteen votes to two,

 

The State of Israel shall submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order within one month as from the date of this Order.

Why would I want it when I read it on the 27th Jan? 

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

What happened here? Next to nothing.

 

*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
 

Really, next to nothing, your saying does not make it so and different to your claim.

 

The ICJ absolutely ordered Israel to stop killing civilians. It has not done so, not has it fulfilled any other of the orders the ICJ made, in particular allowing humanitarian aid

Edited February 5 by Bkk Brian

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Really, next to nothing, your saying, you saying that does not make it so

 

I was being generous. I have read nothing that indicates that either of these two orders has been met and have read (and posted) continuing violations of the order to enable humanitarian aid.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I was being generous. I have read nothing that indicates that either of these two orders has been met and have read (and posted) continuing violations of the order to enable humanitarian aid.

Your full claim below which you have no link to.

 

49 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The ICJ absolutely ordered Israel to stop killing civilians. It has not done so, not has it fulfilled any other of the orders the ICJ made, in particular allowing humanitarian aid

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why would I want it when I read it on the 27th Jan? 

 

It wasn't only for your benefit, there are others on here besides you, can I suggest you re-read the order and then tell the group where you think Israel has complied with the order, so far.