Revenue Department Contact Reports

[Mike Lister]

This thread is solely for the purpose of recording information from posters who have had contact with the Revenue Department in the different parts of the country, eg, filing of tax returns, questions asked, TIN applications etc. Any information you can supply that will help other readers understand what new rules are being enforced, new measures being taken and the responses to any tax related question you asked, will be invaluable. Please state the location of your visit. Since we are now in the peak time when members will visit RD offices, it's an excellent time to gather first hand information about how the new changes will be handled. Note: if you visited and didn't learn anything new, it's probably not worth reporting that!

 

Any off topic discussions and unnecessary posts will be removed without warning.

[Will B Good]

Contacted Chaiyaphum DR twice via email.....in English and Thai.....enquiring about a TIN application and appointment.....no response......I think you will need a Thai speaker to call on your behalf or actually go there,

[pauku1]

Saraphi Chiang Mai

- retired over 65.
- applied thai TIN 6 years ago
- never filed tax-return

Transfered more than half million THB in december, so decided to file.

 

This Post was helpful:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/?do=findComment&comment=18613231

 

downloaded file from here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/63902.html

 

small excell to compute and play the numbers:

taxel.xls

[Mike Lister]

Thank you for those things, we appreciate it very much.

[Mike Lister]

On 1/29/2024 at 7:03 AM, Mike Lister said:

 

 

One contact report here copied from another thread.

It is unclear from that posters subsequent report whether or not at least part of his pension income was assessable and over the 120k threshold, that would have been key information for everyone to understand this year. Perhaps Poster @The Cyclist can clarify in due course.

 

"Therein lies the rub. What constitutes assessable income.

 

To my way of thinkingI

 

Government Pension, covered by DTA and not assessable income.

 

Private Pension, not covered by a DTA and might be considered assessable income."

Poster The Cyclist has filed a RD contact report in another thread and reported that he has been instructed not to file a tax return this year involving his two UK pensions that are above the tax Thai threshold. Unfortunately, he doesn't know why he doesn't have to file a return and he didn't ask. 

 

My understanding is the above poster was told he didn't have to file a return, because both of his pensions were taxed in the UK. If that understanding is incorrect, I'm certain it will be corrected in due course. 

[Mike Lister]

I'm going to cross post here because there is so much misleading and confusing information flying around that many people are getting confused, and no wonder why.

 

Firstly, poster The Cyclist went to the RD to see if he needed to file a tax return, this is because , " I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned". So yes, he was required to file a tax return under the old rules. BUT, for whatever reason the RD said he didn't need to file a return, allegedly, and oddly, he didn't ask why! We may never know what the real story was here or the reasons behind it so we all must move on and find another new example because the information on this is not reliable or conclusive in any way.

 

Secondly, we are being told repeatedly by some that we don't know what assessable income is and that at some point, the RD will tell us. This is not true, we have always known what assessable income is, the definition has not changed. Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand, whilst tax resident and was earned after 1 January 2024 and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD. 

 

Thirdly, the Revenue Department may make some announcements in the coming months or there again they may not. I am hard pressed to understand exactly what announcements might be made or why. We have been told that new tax filing forms are being prepared, presumably they are being redesigned but I don't even know this for certain. It is not impossible to think that we might arrive at 31 December 2024 knowing nothing more than we do today, in respect of Thai tax. If that happens, anyone who has been tax resident here during this year, will be required to file a tax return, as long as they have assessable income that exceeds the threshold of 120,000. Assessable income is defined above. It will be YOUR responsibility to understand your country's DTA with Thailand and determine what constitutes assessable income. DTA's are available to download and are linked in the OP.

 

Lastly, it is possible that many different things might happen between now and the end of the year but at this stage, trying to imagine what they might be is nothing more than guess work so I'm not even going to discuss any of them because it only further confuses matters.

[Mike Lister]

An extremely positive report below from an Australian poster who says there is some good news to be had for Australian Thailand tax residents. Heads up poster @TroubleandGrumpy

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Isn't that exactly what DTAs are all about, ensuring that ones income will not be taxed twice.

 

And isn't that exactly what was said in The Thai Enquirer on the 18th Sep 2023?

 

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

A DTA contains specifics of what is covered and what is not, in the case of the UK/Thai DTA, Government Pensions are covered, State and Private Pensions are not. So in that respect, some income is covered by the DTA whilst some is not.

 

The Thaienquirer may well have written those things but that is not a source of information to be relied upon, for obvious reasons. Many people have looked through the RD website, the RD Code and Tax Law, as well as commentary by the major tax consultancies such as PWC, Sherrings and Mazars and nobody has been able to find details and further explanation of what was written in that paper.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Due course has now happened, and yet again, you have just been corrected.

 

Now could you possibly quote the part where I said that the RD told me I didn't have to file because my pensions were taxed in the UK.

 

It would help identify your misunderstanding and and save you from any further misunderstandings.

 

I wont hold my breath waiting for that quote arriving, because it doesn't exist.

 

 

 

That is quite correct, apparently you were not told, you simply believed that was the case:

 

"Simple common sense tells me that income taxed in home Country is highly unlikely to be taxed again in Thailand. Which is why I have posted it multiple times, long before I went to the RD Office".

 

Since nobody knows the reason why you were told not to file, I think we all need to move on from trying to use your case an example because it doesn't tell us anything useful or helpful. If we're ever going to make progress on this, we need to find an example where somebody actually interreacted with RD staff and asked questions and clearly that's not you.

 

[Phulublub]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Now could you possibly quote the part where I said that the RD told me I didn't have to file because my pensions were taxed in the UK.

 

Did you ask them why you did not need to file?  Paying tax in home country, or having income that is exempt by DTA, is not (from what I have been able to read)  a reason for not filing in Thailand.

 

If you remit above the threshold, then you are to file a return, even if that return will result in zero tax being due.  If you can give us clarification of reasons behind why the RD said do not file it would be helpful; otherwise, while what you were told may be believed to be true by the official who told you, it may not, actually, be the correct answer.

 

PH

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

An extremely positive report below from an Australian poster who says there is some good news to be had for Australian Thailand tax residents. Heads up poster @TroubleandGrumpy

 

 

 

The information I have received from my enquiries to both the ATO and local legal firms is something along these lines:

the new tax law in Thailand at the moment is as you can see is still quite vague, and we hopefully will have a more clear idea of how this affects visa types and nationalities specifically in the coming months once it has been implemented and trialed by the authorities

 

I have received no officlal reply from the ATO - both from an email and an online 'application' - only references to website information (like below).  What is clear under the DTA is that as long as you are a tax resident of Australia, you do not pay any income taxes to Thailand on any money revived in Australia - even if you are also a tax resident of Thailand. There are several rules/regs about what is an Aust tax resident - best way is to take the test blow.  I am an Aust tax resident - and wil be for at least 2 years - so Thailand will get none of my age pension for at least 2 years.  But after 2 years it becomes 'problemmatic' maintaining tax residency in Aust while not living full-time in Aust - each person has to ascertain their own status - or seek a private ruling from the ATO (I have done that and was told 'several months delay').

Questions | Determination of residency status – leaving Australia (ato.gov.au)

Applying for a private ruling | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

 

I am very/extremely doubtful that the definition of assessable income used by some people on this forum is correct.  My read of the Thai RD tax guide is that assessable income means taxable income. I am certain that the Thai RD does require Expats to report all the money they remitted into Thailand from their own personal saving - or from other non-taxable sources such as inheritences or property sales made overseas (that was bought with their owen money from overseas). However rental payments received from property overseas is taxable income.   

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

The information I have received from my enquiries to both the ATO and local legal firms is something along these lines:

the new tax law in Thailand at the moment is as you can see is still quite vague, and we hopefully will have a more clear idea of how this affects visa types and nationalities specifically in the coming months once it has been implemented and trialed by the authorities

 

I have received no officlal reply from the ATO - both from an email and an online 'application' - only references to website information (like below).  What is clear under the DTA is that as long as you are a tax resident of Australia, you do not pay any income taxes to Thailand on any money revived in Australia - even if you are also a tax resident of Thailand. There are several rules/regs about what is an Aust tax resident - best way is to take the test blow.  I am an Aust tax resident - and wil be for at least 2 years - so Thailand will get none of my age pension for at least 2 years.  But after 2 years it becomes 'problemmatic' maintaining tax residency in Aust while not living full-time in Aust - each person has to ascertain their own status - or seek a private ruling from the ATO (I have done that and was told 'several months delay').

Questions | Determination of residency status – leaving Australia (ato.gov.au)

Applying for a private ruling | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

 

I am very/extremely doubtful that the definition of assessable income used by some people on this forum is correct.  My read of the Thai RD tax guide is that assessable income means taxable income. I am certain that the Thai RD does require Expats to report all the money they remitted into Thailand from their own personal saving - or from other non-taxable sources such as inheritences or property sales made overseas (that was bought with their owen money from overseas). However rental payments received from property overseas is taxable income.   

 

Presumably you missed the word "not" in the sentence above that starts, "I am certain the Thai RD..."?

 

That being true, the problem TG is your use and understanding of the word "income". You appear to use the word income to include all remitted funds, whereas I do not. This is why I earlier suggested we use the terms, remitted funds, assessable income, taxable income and exempt funds.

 

The definition of assessable income I have used is as follows:

 

"Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand and was earned after 1 January 2024, whilst tax resident and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD". 

 

As you can see, my definition excludes savings and anything other than income, meaning that which was earned through any means including passive investment, work etc etc, not merely money that was received in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guavaman]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I am very/extremely doubtful that the definition of assessable income used by some people on this forum is correct.  My read of the Thai RD tax guide is that assessable income means taxable income. I am certain that the Thai RD does require Expats to report all the money they remitted into Thailand from their own personal saving - or from other non-taxable sources such as inheritences or property sales made overseas (that was bought with their owen money from overseas). However rental payments received from property overseas is taxable income. 

Source: Tilleke & Gibbins Thailand Tax Guide:

 

2. Taxable Base

The taxable base is determined by deducting certain allowances from the total assessable income. The total assessable income is determined by aggregating the amounts under the different categories of income after deducting certain permitted expenses from assessable income of each category.

 

In general, all types of income are assessable unless expressly exempt by law.

 

https://www.tilleke.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Thailand-Tax-Guide.pdf

 

Source: MoneyMgmnt

 

Assessable & taxable income

 

All types of income are generally assessable unless expressly exempt by law (see the exemptions below).

 

You can read the Revenue Code (Section 40) for more details about each type.

While assessable income represents a total of income that counts towards your tax liability, taxable income/base is the actual amount on which you pay tax. You can calculate it by subtracting deductions & allowances from your assessable income:

 

Taxable income = Assessable income (excl. exempt income) - Deductions - Allowance

 

Tax-exempt income

Currently, there are 29 income categories exempt from personal income tax. Below is a summary of some of those most likely to apply to foreigners living in Thailand (courtesy of the Revenue Code):

 

You can find the full list in the Revenue Code (Section 42).

 

https://www.moneymgmnt.com/tax/personal-income-tax-thailand/

[Mike Lister]

Another report from Australia

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

@thecyclist - if you have been living in Thailand for many years, then I would have expected it to have dawned on you long ago that "simple common sense" is a commodity which is in extremely short supply here in LOS!

That shows up as my quote, which of course it is not. But agreed regardless 

[Ralf001]

Just got my 2023 return done... shocks me how much tax I pay !

Will report back next year when I do my 2024 one !

Edited February 4 by Ralf001

[Mike Lister]

Off topic posts have been removed. The purpose of this thread is for readers to report contact with the RD, general debating about tax is best held in the long thread.

[smedly]

see my post here

 

Wise confirmation of personal details - Jobs, Economy, Banking, Business, Investments - Thailand News, Travel & Forum - ASEAN NOW

[thesetat2013]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:38 PM, pauku1 said:

Saraphi Chiang Mai

- retired over 65.
- applied thai TIN 6 years ago
- never filed tax-return

Transfered more than half million THB in december, so decided to file.

 

This Post was helpful:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/?do=findComment&comment=18613231

 

downloaded file from here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/63902.html

 

small excell to compute and play the numbers:

taxel.xls 10.5 kB · 50 downloads

useless since these forms are only up to last year. And the new laws for 2024 are not the same as last year

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, thesetat2013 said:

useless since these forms are only up to last year. And the new laws for 2024 are not the same as last year

 

Last year was tax year 2023, the tax forms for that year  were required between January and March this year and are shown on the site linked earlier by the poster you criticised.

 

This year is 2024, the tax forms will be required from next January 1st onwards and will be posted in the same link, closer to the end of the year. Most people cannot file a tax return, before 1 January 2025 hence there is no need for the forms, before then.

[samtam]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:38 PM, pauku1 said:

Saraphi Chiang Mai

- retired over 65.
- applied thai TIN 6 years ago
- never filed tax-return

Transfered more than half million THB in december, so decided to file.

 

This Post was helpful:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/?do=findComment&comment=18613231

 

downloaded file from here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/63902.html

 

small excell to compute and play the numbers:

taxel.xls 10.5 kB · 70 downloads

 

In the Tax Computation sheet where does one show income from 1) use of foreign credit cards in Thailand and 2) ATM deposits in Thailand from ATM withdrawals on foreign bank accounts? Is it under "A - Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If I have a Thai (Pink) ID is that my TIN, or do I formally have to apply for a TIN, and how?

 

Once I have completed my tax form, do I take in in person to the Revenue Department (I'm in Bangkok). Do I get a ticket and wait to be called? Is it then read and agreed, and I pay? Do I pay in cash?

 

Sorry, this may have been covered a zillion times, and I have missed it.

 

Has anyone been to RD in Bangkok and asked them these questions?

 

My credit card and ATM withdrawals are from dividend income untaxed and UK state pension untaxed. These monies are generated within the current tax year.

[Digitalbanana]

11 minutes ago, samtam said:

In the Tax Computation sheet where does one show income from 1) use of foreign credit cards in Thailand and 2) ATM deposits in Thailand from ATM withdrawals on foreign bank accounts? Is it under "A - Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

In what way would your points 1 or 2 be classed as income? You are simply drawing on your own funds not earning income.

[samtam]

29 minutes ago, Digitalbanana said:

In what way would your points 1 or 2 be classed as income? You are simply drawing on your own funds not earning income.

 

I think I may have read multiple times that use of foreign credit cards in Thailand is considered as taxable income. But I would be delighted to hear that I am completely mistaken.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

 

In the Tax Computation sheet where does one show income from 1) use of foreign credit cards in Thailand and 2) ATM deposits in Thailand from ATM withdrawals on foreign bank accounts? Is it under "A - Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If I have a Thai (Pink) ID is that my TIN, or do I formally have to apply for a TIN, and how?

 

Once I have completed my tax form, do I take in in person to the Revenue Department (I'm in Bangkok). Do I get a ticket and wait to be called? Is it then read and agreed, and I pay? Do I pay in cash?

 

Sorry, this may have been covered a zillion times, and I have missed it.

 

Has anyone been to RD in Bangkok and asked them these questions?

 

My credit card and ATM withdrawals are from dividend income untaxed and UK state pension untaxed. These monies are generated within the current tax year.

 

This post is another example of what is wrong with all the tax discussions on these forums.  "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. 

 

There is currently no conclusive advice on this ( foreign credit cards or ATM withdrawals) . Opinions of experts differ.

 

There is no way to show this ( what you call "income")  on current Thailand tax forms. 

 

If you tried, you would likely have the dubious honor of being the first foreigner in Thailand to ever attempt to pay taxes on "income" by using your foreign credit card or ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts. 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

This post is another example of what is wrong with all the tax discussions on these forums.  "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. 

 

There is currently no conclusive advice on this ( foreign credit cards or ATM withdrawals) . Opinions of experts differ.

 

There is no way to show this ( what you call "income")  on current Thailand tax forms. 

 

If you tried, you would likely have the dubious honor of being the first foreigner in Thailand to ever attempt to pay taxes on "income" by using your foreign credit card or ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts. 

I agree and don't agree! In this particular case, it's consensus opinion, Expat Tax has spoken on the subject, as has TRD representatives publically. Until something better comes along to disprove those two sources, that 's what I  prefer to believe. And the evidence is that the UK's HMRC also consider those things assessable income, which further strengthens the case. But once again, people can believe whatever they want, just don't tell me that I'm wrong, just because one small well connected law firm says it is so.

[samtam]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree and don't agree! In this particular case, it's consensus opinion, Expat Tax has spoken on the subject, as has TRD representatives publically. Until something better comes along to disprove those two sources, that 's what I  prefer to believe. And the evidence is that the UK's HMRC also consider those things assessable income, which further strengthens the case. But once again, people can believe whatever they want, just don't tell me that I'm wrong, just because one small well connected law firm says it is so.

 

Can you please clarify what you agree with. What has Expat Tax said on the subject, or TRD publicly? I'm unclear what HMRC's decision further strengthens. Thanks.

[samtam]

19 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

This post is another example of what is wrong with all the tax discussions on these forums.  "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. 

 

I am quite willing to agree that I am absolutely baffled by what I have read through the thousands of pages of comments and opinions through these forum topics.

 

It would nice to have the subject answered concisely.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Can you please clarify what you agree with. What has Expat Tax said on the subject, or TRD publicly? I'm unclear what HMRC's decision further strengthens. Thanks.

 

3 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

I am quite willing to agree that I am absolutely baffled by what I have read through the thousands of pages of comments and opinions through these forum topics.

 

It would nice to have the subject answered concisely.

 

[anrcaccount]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree and don't agree! In this particular case, it's consensus opinion, Expat Tax has spoken on the subject, as has TRD representatives publically. Until something better comes along to disprove those two sources, that 's what I  prefer to believe. And the evidence is that the UK's HMRC also consider those things assessable income, which further strengthens the case. But once again, people can believe whatever they want, just don't tell me that I'm wrong, just because one small well connected law firm says it is so.

 

It is definitely not "consensus opinion". 

[anrcaccount]

7 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

 

 

It would nice to have the subject answered concisely.

 

Not possible sorry.

 

I would say, that it's likely no foreigner has ever paid tax on their foreign credit card transactions in Thailand or ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts. Take that as you may.

 

Opinions, and 'expert' opinions differ on whether these may form part of taxable/assessable tax income, now and in the future.