GammaGlobulin Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, AustinRacing said: Yeah you missed the point. You can be polite in your own way. Wai is something Thais do not foreigners. They don’t expect it of you so don’t bother looking silly just trying to impress them. You won’t!!! Yes. True in some cases. But not in all cases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 3 hours ago, AustinRacing said: Yeah you missed the point. You can be polite in your own way. Wai is something Thais do not foreigners. They don’t expect it of you so don’t bother looking silly just trying to impress them. You won’t!!! This is the strange part for me.... It seems the reason you refuse to Wai is because you think you look silly doing so or you don't want to look like you are 'trying' to impress them. ... and then you consider someone else's sense of 'expectation' and project that they don't expect that you offer a Wai as you expect that they don't expect it... ... Almost as if you are walking around going..... 'nope... no wai... nope, not doing it, nope, don't return the wai they don't expect it and I don't want to look like I'm trying too hard to impress anyone, they should already be impressed by my mere presence !!!!!!'..... I'm not suggesting you 'should wai'... its an individual response of course, but I do think your reasons for not doing so is based upon a flawed understanding which is just a little odd.. Your refusal to wai because you think it looks silly, is the same as you thinking a Thai would look silly putting their hand out to shake a westerners hand, or if putting your right hand on your heart and giving gentle nod when meeting an Arab in a respectful setting... All a little too much overthinking it with this stuff..... as always mentioned in these topics, the key point is to show an attempt to present respectfulness and acknowledging a greeting etc... as you pointed out, a nod and a smile from a foreigner suffices and thats fair enough... But you have also suggested that 'Thais laugh behind the back of foreigners who Wai'.... and this is where you get it wrong, and if this is the reason you refuse to wai, then your decision is based on a flawed understanding of the local culture.... Edited February 27 by richard_smith237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymahoney Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/25/2024 at 10:08 PM, richard_smith237 said: When first met my Wife's parents I was very careful to ensure I gave them a Wai.... So it seems you are maybe of an age that, when you married your Thai wife, her parents were in much the same age range as would be your parents. When I married my wife and met her parents for the first time at New Years', I was about 10 years older than her parents. Makes a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaGlobulin Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 46 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: you think it looks silly, is the same as you thinking a Thai would look silly putting their hand out to shake a westerners hand It doesn't look silly. But, it looks strange and out-of-place. Also, it is an invasion of personal space. Don't shake hands in Thailand! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinRacing Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: This is the strange part for me.... It seems the reason you refuse to Wai is because you think you look silly doing so or you don't want to look like you are 'trying' to impress them. ... and then you consider someone else's sense of 'expectation' and project that they don't expect that you offer a Wai as you expect that they don't expect it... ... Almost as if you are walking around going..... 'nope... no wai... nope, not doing it, nope, don't return the wai they don't expect it and I don't want to look like I'm trying too hard to impress anyone, they should already be impressed by my mere presence !!!!!!'..... I'm not suggesting you 'should wai'... its an individual response of course, but I do think your reasons for not doing so is based upon a flawed understanding which is just a little odd.. Your refusal to wai because you think it looks silly, is the same as you thinking a Thai would look silly putting their hand out to shake a westerners hand, or if putting your right hand on your heart and giving gentle nod when meeting an Arab in a respectful setting... All a little too much overthinking it with this stuff..... as always mentioned in these topics, the key point is to show an attempt to present respectfulness and acknowledging a greeting etc... as you pointed out, a nod and a smile from a foreigner suffices and thats fair enough... But you have also suggested that 'Thais laugh behind the back of foreigners who Wai'.... and this is where you get it wrong, and if this is the reason you refuse to wai, then your decision is based on a flawed understanding of the local culture.... It’s not that I think it looks silly. Thais think it’ looks silly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ningnong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, jerrymahoney said: So it seems you are maybe of an age that, when you married your Thai wife, her parents were in much the same age range as would be your parents. When I married my wife and met her parents for the first time at New Years', I was about 10 years older than her parents. Makes a difference. Did your wife's parents wai you first or at all? It's the relative age compared to your wife's age that matters. You should Wai the parents first even if younger than yourself and Wai any older siblings of your wife first even if younger than you. Anyway that's the proper way in Esahn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 35 minutes ago, AustinRacing said: It’s not that I think it looks silly. Thais think it’ looks silly. I don't know who you hang around with.... But I've never heard a comment from a Thai that another foreigner returning their Wai looks silly..... You're projecting some imagined idea... that doesn't matter... but it does make me curious from a sociological point of view. No finger point or accusations - just open thinking: Western Guy in Pattaya - Wai'ing Bar Girls and McDonalds Staff and anyone etc - Yep, of course he's making a fool of himself. I think some foreigners thing any other foreigner who Wai's falls into this category. Western Guy in Kanchanaburi - Returning the Wai of a Thai friend he's been introduced to... He'd be rude not to, but if he shook hands, or nodded and smiled, it wouldn't be a big deal at all. Western Guy (younger) being introduced to close friends of his Wife's father (older)... and doesn't Wai.... He'd be rude not to, but may be forgiven for his ignorance, his Wife's father may be conscious of further introductions. Obviously there are numerous different scenarios and all can't be covered.... But I can cover one..... Never ever returning a Wai because you think Thai's think it looks silly is a guarantee that in 'some' situations you will be mentally labelled as someone who is impolite or just ignorant. While overtly very tolerant, just as many other people of many other cultures and nationalities are Thai's are also very judgemental under the surface, just as many other people of many other cultures and nationalities are.... And whatever it is you are doing and how you behave, mental note are taken, even if subconsciously. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 hours ago, jerrymahoney said: So it seems you are maybe of an age that, when you married your Thai wife, her parents were in much the same age range as would be your parents. When I married my wife and met her parents for the first time at New Years', I was about 10 years older than her parents. Makes a difference. It was an extremely easy social pathway to for me navigate because my Wife and I are of similar age and I'm about 35 years younger than my Father and Mother In Law - there was no doubt as to who should Wai first, and I had no doubt as to whether or not I'd give them a Wai.... ... as is I my custom when meeting one on one... I offered a Wai, then followed with a handshake. FiL & MiL have since met many of my friends, often in social situations and its interesting to see that social dynamic.... People I am in sports teams with or know socially, bump into us when we are out for dinner etc.... and they, of course, a respectful of my in Laws and Wai them when they are introduced.... I'm not saying everyone has to Wai, because some people clearly really object to the idea and start making up excuses as to why.... (often from a basis or ridiculous misunderstanding or projection)....... But, what I am saying is, offering and returning a Wai at the right time 'does' make a difference. So, for those who think never wai'ing makes any difference, I'd suspect they are never in such a setting for it to matter or with those who care so little of them or about them any passing evaluation or consideration is completely irrelevant, they're invisible and always disregarded to the fringes anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 54 minutes ago, ningnong said: Did your wife's parents wai you first or at all? It's the relative age compared to your wife's age that matters. You should Wai the parents first even if younger than yourself and Wai any older siblings of your wife first even if younger than you. Anyway that's the proper way in Esahn. Here's another dynamic.... You are in Thailand, have lived in Thailand all your life, Daughter is half Thai and introduces you her Boyfriend.... What do you expect ? ... If the BF is Thai (or half) I'd expect him to Wai me, or offer to shake my hand when meeting. ... if the BF is Western, I'd expect him to offer to shake my hand when meeting. and heres the kicker... ... If the BF is Thai or Western (or half) I'd expect him to Wai my Wife (Thai).... As far as the other discussion where the BF is older than the GF's father.... that's another different one... Not something I'd need to consider.... But interesting nevertheless. In that hypothetical situation, I think I'd still Wai the GF's father, even if I'm older, because I',m showing respect for his daughter by Wai'ing him and I think that would be considered important to them.... It could just be the thing that makes life a little easier. My FiL was never happy with his daughter dating a foreigner..... He was dead against it and it caused arguments at home. Yet, FiL was always polite with me, spoke well, shook my hand, returned my Wai's... and that was extremely important to me... I suspect it was extremely important to him that I also behaved in a manner respectful of him and his family - he'd had very little exposure to Westerners outside of some business dealings... and certainly none on a social or family level. Thus.... had I behaved like an entitled 'foreigner' refusing to Wai.... I think that relationship would have been very short lived. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said: 5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: you think it looks silly, is the same as you thinking a Thai would look silly putting their hand out to shake a westerners hand It doesn't look silly. But, it looks strange and out-of-place. Also, it is an invasion of personal space. Don't shake hands in Thailand! I wonder in who's eyes.... Its certainly not strange for me to see a Thai shake hands... I shake hands and Wai after every golf game with a Thai. I shake hands and Wai every time I meet my Father in Law and friends Parents etc I shake hands with friends after football game.... sometimes a Wai too depending on their instigation. Shake / Wai... just go with the flow in a relaxed manner.... none of it looks silly unless someone is a socially awkward person who doesn't know how to read signals, read the room or lacks awareness of simple social protocols. ------ I first notice this 'read the room' when in greeting people in Iraq years ago.... In the North the Kurds are very happy to shake a hand, then place their hand over their hearts..... (as a heartfelt greeting).... even the women are happy to shake your hand, although I'd wait for them to offer a handshake first..... In the south, its only hand over heart and a slight bow... sometimes its then a hand on both shoulders and a 'simulated' kiss on each side (leaving about 6" distance - but this is a whole new dynamic, one, two or three 'air-kisses' ??? - thats a tricky one).... But then in a 'professional meeting room'... its handshakes, but not with the females where its just a 'nod'..... The dynamic is different everywhere... But, to say 'I'm not going to try because I think they think I look silly'.... is the realm of the juvenile.... of course, don't try too hard, just read the room and allow this to happen naturally... This discussion on the wai, does indicate many lacks the basic's of 'reading the room' (i.e. lack observation skills so dont pick up on social cues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottfrid Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/24/2024 at 5:56 AM, GammaGlobulin said: As a Farang in a foreign land, the act of the "wai" is foreign to me. During my initial long-term stay in Thailand, I was reluctant to wai. However, after becoming quite settled in Thailand, I now feel comfortable in returning a wai. Why is this? Maybe it is because the act of the wai was so foreign to me during my first many years in Thailand. And now, maybe, I have gotten to the point where I have...already... GONE NATIVE.... Do you enjoy the return of the wai when someone offers this gesture to you? Why? Or, do you feel a bit out of place using the wai? Why? Why? Please do not ask me, Gamma Why reluctant? Why not take the customs in the land you stay to your heart? it´s just how they say hello and show respect to each other. Same like a hand shake but better as already told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JensenZ Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/24/2024 at 10:10 AM, Neeranam said: In the tapestry of Thailand, there exists a thread of farang who resist assimilation into the fabric of their adopted homeland. They dwell in enclaves of familiarity, clinging to the echoes of their native tongue, traditions, and beliefs, while the rhythms of the new land swirl around them, unnoticed. These immigrants, bound by nostalgia and the comfort of the known, traverse the streets of their new country with a sense of detachment, cocooned in the safety of their own communities. Their journey becomes a delicate dance between preserving their identity and embracing the unfamiliar, a balance often tipped towards the former. Yet, in their isolation, they unwittingly erect barriers between themselves and the rich tapestry of experiences, opportunities, and diversity that their new home offers. Their reluctance to integrate, while rooted in the longing for familiarity, serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities inherent in the human experience of migration. Notwithstanding your ever-present condescending attitude and air of superiority on this forum - you do your thing and I'll do mine. It's my retirement, so I don't need an education from people like you on how I should proceed. No one is giving out gold stars for their level of Thai cultural integration. Maybe it's a problem where you live, but I chose Pattaya as a place to retire where I could be me. That's very easy to do in Pattaya. One reason why Thailand is such a desirable place to retire - the Thai people are very flexible and welcoming to people of other cultures. It might be surprising to some that most of the criticism comes from other expats. On the subject of wai-ing. Most of the interaction I have with Thai people is when I'm handing over money. They might wai, I say thank you - mostly in English... and everyone is happy. I don't have a Thai family or a Thai partner, so in that case, I expect much more cultural integration would be necessary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymahoney Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: So, for those who think never wai'ing makes any difference, This topic is more than I've thought about wai-ing one way or another in my 20+ years living full time in Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymahoney Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 10 hours ago, ningnong said: Did your wife's parents wai you first or at all? I don't remember. Probably they did. It was New Years Eve day and I showed up with a case of Hong Thong and 2 cases of beer for their party And I don't drink the stuff at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymahoney Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: So, for those who think never wai'ing makes any difference, I'd suspect they are never in such a setting for it to matter or with those who care so little of them or about them any passing evaluation or consideration is completely irrelevant, they're invisible and always disregarded to the fringes anyway. In 2003-4 I was very uninformed about visas and all. In those days every 30 days I could take the train up up to NongKhai, cross into PDR Lao with a PDR Lao visa, and return 20 minutes later for a no-cost 30-day visa exempt entry into Thailand. As many as desired. I made the mistake of asking them for a formal volunteer visa which resulted in this 'Dear Jerry ... However" letter that they were not in the least interested in going through that formal visa process and possible audit. But I still worked for years with some of their most capable students assisting them in University admissions and domestic / ex-Thailand scholarship applications. Edited February 27 by jerrymahoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daejung Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) On 2/24/2024 at 10:09 PM, richard_smith237 said: Then your teacher was a bit of a pillock.... I know Thai's in very high positions who return the Wai of waiting staff when walking into a nice restaurant etc.... because its the polite thing to do... I watch my Father in Law behave the same way. I had several teachers and they all say same Edited February 28 by daejung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daejung Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2/25/2024 at 10:27 PM, AustinRacing said: Wai is a Thai thing. You’re not Thai. Most likely they’ll laugh behind your back. I agree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I think many a farangy don't like to Wai because they think they don't look coool doing it, sort of below their trendy 'portrayed' image, plus they do not understand Thai culture from any level of Thai society and the Wai........🥴 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, daejung said: I agree Cr@p...............🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, daejung said: I had several teachers and they all say same Then your teachers are letting you down. I’ve also had poorly educated halfwits give me flawed advice which is solely based around their own socio-economic status and not mine. Step outside this classroom and see the reality of the world around you. This morning I’ve seen 2 Dr’s & 1 physio specialist - all wai’ied on greeting & departing - it would seem very rude not to. & as far as classrooms are concerned - teachers here are notoriously locked into their ‘world’ & lack intelligent discretion. Way back I had a Thai teacher teaching me refer to myself as “Chan” - clearly she was an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 26 minutes ago, daejung said: On 2/25/2024 at 10:27 PM, AustinRacing said: Wai is a Thai thing. You’re not Thai. Most likely they’ll laugh behind your back. I agree it you’re familiar with Thai’s laughing at you behind your back or it’s a concern of yours, it about you, not your Wai or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 23 minutes ago, transam said: I think many a farangy don't like to Wai because they think they don't look coool doing it, sort of below their trendy 'portrayed' image, plus they do not understand Thai culture from any level of Thai society and the Wai........🥴 Agreed - it’s as if they think they are showing some degree of deference to those they consider below them…, … there is an almost racist undertone to those refusing to wai, or at least an undertone that they themselves feel superior & wish not to diminish their ‘image’ by lowering themselves to an act they consider beneath them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: Agreed - it’s as if they think they are showing some degree of deference to those they consider below them…, … there is an almost racist undertone to those refusing to wai, or at least an undertone that they themselves feel superior & wish not to diminish their ‘image’ by lowering themselves to an act they consider beneath them. Yep, you and I have been here long enough to see what goes on farangy wise, but I must say, most of my friends do understand how to be polite, even if they don't understand. I have done a few farang funeral speeches, doing the English bit, but I always acknowledge the Thai contingent with a Wai and swady before I start.......... 😇 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinRacing Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 23 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: I don't know who you hang around with.... But I've never heard a comment from a Thai that another foreigner returning their Wai looks silly..... You're projecting some imagined idea... that doesn't matter... but it does make me curious from a sociological point of view. No finger point or accusations - just open thinking: Western Guy in Pattaya - Wai'ing Bar Girls and McDonalds Staff and anyone etc - Yep, of course he's making a fool of himself. I think some foreigners thing any other foreigner who Wai's falls into this category. Western Guy in Kanchanaburi - Returning the Wai of a Thai friend he's been introduced to... He'd be rude not to, but if he shook hands, or nodded and smiled, it wouldn't be a big deal at all. Western Guy (younger) being introduced to close friends of his Wife's father (older)... and doesn't Wai.... He'd be rude not to, but may be forgiven for his ignorance, his Wife's father may be conscious of further introductions. Obviously there are numerous different scenarios and all can't be covered.... But I can cover one..... Never ever returning a Wai because you think Thai's think it looks silly is a guarantee that in 'some' situations you will be mentally labelled as someone who is impolite or just ignorant. While overtly very tolerant, just as many other people of many other cultures and nationalities are Thai's are also very judgemental under the surface, just as many other people of many other cultures and nationalities are.... And whatever it is you are doing and how you behave, mental note are taken, even if subconsciously. I hang around upper middle class to hi-so types. Of course they won’t tell it to your face. At best it’s a silly things to do and as someone mentioned out of place for foreigners. At worst you’re invading their tradition. “It’s bad enough they come live here and now they’re pretending to be one of us”. Don’t, I’d say but each to their own. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaGlobulin Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, AustinRacing said: I hang around upper middle class to hi-so types. Of course they won’t tell it to your face. At best it’s a silly things to do and as someone mentioned out of place for foreigners. At worst you’re invading their tradition. “It’s bad enough they come live here and now they’re pretending to be one of us”. Don’t, I’d say but each to their own. Peace out. I have been told by a Hi-So factory owner to wai important visitors to the owner's factory. Therefore, I do know that nothing is the same across all strata of society, nor for all circumstances. You just got to keep your ears and eyes open, and be sensitive to each occasion, and act as respectfully as you can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffersLos Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Since I stopped wearing anything but a pair of 50 BAHT homemade shorts I don't need to return a lot of wais, which is A-OK with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaGlobulin Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, JeffersLos said: Since I stopped wearing anything but a pair of 50 BAHT homemade shorts I don't need to return a lot of wais, which is A-OK with me. KUDOS for, at least, deigning to wear your homemade shorts among polite company, here in Thailand. I am sure that the locals are just so appreciative for your thoughtfulness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaGlobulin Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) Just a thought...which may or may not be of any interest or consequence: I have spent my entire ADULT life in Asia. Nearly 100 percent of my friends, during this time, have been, and are, Asian. My friends include those from Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan, and China. I have had almost zero Farang friends during this time. And so, this is why my opportunity to post a few thoughts on TV has been such a new and enlightening experience for me. There are some good guys on TV, just like me; I can tell. And, the "Why of the Wai" is a no-brainer for the likes of us. I know that I will die, just as I have lived, a man alone in Asia. I would have it no other way. I would not change a thing. I will continue to Wai, when I know that my Wai will be appropriate and welcomed. I will not Wai when I don't know why, or if, I should. In all things, I will do my best to be respectful to my Asian friends around me. This is all that I have to say,..... For now. Edited February 28 by GammaGlobulin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingAPorn Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 What's wrong with a big wai ? Each time I get myself serviced, the fine young lady give a big wai before taking things in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymahoney Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 On 2/27/2024 at 8:05 PM, richard_smith237 said: So, for those who think never wai'ing makes any difference, I'd suspect they are never in such a setting for it to matter or with those who care so little of them or about them any passing evaluation or consideration is completely irrelevant, they're invisible and always disregarded to the fringes anyway. When I first mentioned my involvement with a Thai NGO your comment was: Under the Patronage of HM the King - over egging your importance somewhat, eh ???.... But you have yet to mention even briefly what is your setting in Thailand that your wai and other matters of decorum have any great import. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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