USUFRUCT, tricks and traps?

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You are wrong if you are saying foreigners (two people) cannot buy a condo/property in joint names??

 

Your other advice on usufruct is contradictory to legal advice I have received from lawyers here. But as I said to the OP and repliers - it all depends on individual circumstances (including the proeprty) - property laws in Thailand are not one size fits all.  

The op is buying a villa, not a condo. Keep it factual and relevant please.

 

I have an usufruct, our solicitor is one of the most highly regarded in the North and on all the Embassy lists, I believe she understands the function of an usufruct.

[Hummin]

18 hours ago, Woof999 said:

 

Depends on circumstances. Many people say there is too much risk and you can lose everything. In the first 9 years of my living here, I spent almost 6M baht on rent. Rent is always money lost, even though it offers advantages (otherwise I wouldn't have rented for 9 years).

I built on my gf land now wife, and my calculation is 5 years expensive rent, 10 year cheap rent. 20 years, won the lottery. 

 

Our deal is, she keeps everything in her name if we separate, that keeps me in check, both how I treat her, and how much Im wklling to invest in her.

 

Never invest more than you are willing to walk away from. 

 

Keep it simple

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

The op is buying a villa, not a condo. Keep it factual and relevant please.

 

I have an usufruct, our solicitor is one of the most highly regarded in the North and on all the Embassy lists, I believe she understands the function of an usufruct.

If he is buying anything (villa, condo, whatever he calls it) then it obviously does not come with ownership of land. There is no legal definition of what is a 'Villa' and it is possible to own the 'villa' (just the structure) on a larger property/land that is owned by Thais. And he can buy a leashold for property with land.  Either way we dont know the exact situation he is talking about because he has not provided any further details. That is factual and relevant mate.

 

Usufruct in your situation on a farm in an Isaan Province does not immediately equate nationally to every type of property and location in all of Thailand.   Quote "it all depends on individual circumstances (including the property) - property laws in Thailand are not one size fits all."

[TroubleandGrumpy]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I built on my gf land now wife, and my calculation is 5 years expensive rent, 10 year cheap rent. 20 years, won the lottery. 

Our deal is, she keeps everything in her name if we separate, that keeps me in check, both how I treat her, and how much Im wklling to invest in her.

Never invest more than you are willing to walk away from. 

Keep it simple

Excellent advice.  I was of the view for a long time that Expats should only rent in Thailand, but now I have changed my mind.  Besides the fact that we have been together for over 12 years now, I can now more see the advantages of owning a property and being able to do with it what you want, and also having certainty about where you will be living in a few years time (as much as any Expat can). 

[Mike Lister]

19 hours ago, theblether said:

Things to be aware of: 

 

1. A high profile farang in Chiang Mai put the house in his daughters name and when she reached maturity she moved the bitch ex-wife into the house ( her mother ) and kicked out her dad. He'd built his dream home and wasn't even allowed in the garden. 

 

2. The Usufruct is effectively worthless if your wife dies and you lose the will to live in the remote village alone. This is overlooked by too many expats. 

3. The Usufruct is worthless if her family, after her demise, set out to intimidate you out of the house. A famous example years ago was the wife's family showing up the day after the funeral and ordering the guy out. He stood his ground ( miracle in itself ) and managed to sell the house at a fire-sale price just to p*ss the family off. Living there long term in the midst of animosity was never going to work. 

 

Too many people regard the Usufruct as a solution without considering the emotional reality of being isolated after your partners death, or family issues coming the fore.  

Re. Point 2 & 3 - not so if the wife has written a Thai will and leaves the house to the husband. In that scenario, the husband inherits the property and has one year to sell it and the traditional hereditary chain is broken.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If he is buying anything (villa, condo, whatever he calls it) then it obviously does not come with ownership of land. There is no legal definition of what is a 'Villa' and it is possible to own the 'villa' (just the structure) on a larger property/land that is owned by Thais. And he can buy a leashold for property with land.  Either way we dont know the exact situation he is talking about because he has not provided any further details. That is factual and relevant mate.

 

Usufruct in your situation on a farm in an Isaan Province does not immediately equate nationally to every type of property and location in all of Thailand.   Quote "it all depends on individual circumstances (including the property) - property laws in Thailand are not one size fits all."

 

The OP is considering buying what he calls a villa which we can safely presume is a house and not a condominium. 

 

It is also virtually unheard of for anyone to purchase a villa/house in Thailand, without there being some connection to the land on which it sits. I think it is fairly safe to assume that the OP is buying a home, along with the land that it sits on rather than having leased land and then building a home. I think we can also safely assume that the OP himself is supplying the funds for the purchase but that the property will be registered in another persons name, hence his desire to explore usufruct.

 

Property laws in Thailand are national laws, the laws themselves do not vary by province but sometimes the local Land Office will apply their own slight variations regarding whether or not they will actually grant an usufruct. My Amphur in Chiang Mai will grant usufructs to foreigners.

 

Lastly, when you post a material statement in quotes, will you please remember to provide a link to the source of the statement, otherwise remove the quotes. Thanks.

[Mike Lister]

An unnecessarily aggressive and argumentative post has been removed.

[MangoKorat]

12 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

I think you will find that is not correct, there are no title deeds for structures. Yes you can own the structure but the documents to show ownership are the receipts from building the house. If a house and land already exists, the structure cannot be separated from the land.

Its really a moot point, unless the house is portable and can be moved, it serves no purpose to own a structure. 

I am aware that it is possible to own the structure and I know several that do although I have to admit, I don't know what those documents are - they could be just as you state. A structure can be separated from the land - think about it. Example, an owner demolishes a structure on their land and puts is up for sale - it is only the land that is for sale.

 

I am yet to see a chanotte that states anything about structures although I am aware that Land Offices are increasingly recording details of structures built on land when updating their valuations.

 

The purpose of separating the land from the house in this particular case would be that in the case of a relationship breakdown, the usufructuary would not be liable to charges of criminal damage if he was to demolish a structure that was not contained in the title deeds - i.e. the Usufruct was only on the land.

 

My Usufruct, when translated into English legalese states ' that land described on the illustration situated at xxx xxx xxx and the dwelling house thereon'.  Therefore, in my case if I wish to end my Usufruct I must hand the land back the land with the structure intact.  Mine also goes into some detail regarding exactly what the house consists of and the condition of those structures at the time of the agreement (a Usufructuary must return the property in a reasonable condition). It also states that 'reasonable' is 'allowing for usage and time'. That level of detail I believe, is not usual but I believe its there because the previous 'owner' was a foreigner and wanted to avoid problems). The actual registered owner was his wife.

 

The Usufruct was not one of the standard items - it was drawn up by the 'owner's lawyer, who is now my lawyer and a local judge.

[theblether]

@Mike Lister To be pedantic I believe the period is one year and one day. Hence why I mentioned on point three that the guy involved sold at a fire sale price to irritate the family who showed up in a truck literally a day after the funeral demanding that he vacates the property. This is Thailand. When families move against you, you have a serious problem. 

 

However, my primary point is that while considering Usufruct, consider the emotional reality of being isolated in the event of your wife dying. Rural Thailand is covered in "dream" houses that turned to nightmares. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, theblether said:

@Mike Lister To be pedantic I believe the period is one year and one day. Hence why I mentioned on point three that the guy involved sold at a fire sale price to irritate the family who showed up in a truck literally a day after the funeral demanding that he vacates the property. This is Thailand. When families move against you, you have a serious problem. 

 

However, my primary point is that while considering Usufruct, consider the emotional reality of being isolated in the event of your wife dying. Rural Thailand is covered in "dream" houses that turned to nightmares. 

Understood. Not wishing or intending to sidetrack the discussion but the need for both husband and wife to write wills is of key importance. Otherwise, as you correctly say, the combined burden of emotional strain from the death of a spouse and the pressure from greedy family members, can be overwhelming.

[jojothai]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:23 PM, KhunLA said:

Every one I did cost <100 baht at the land office, and was for 'use & modify', as 2 types available.  Did 6 @ Udon Thani and 2 at Prachuap Khiri Khan.

The OP needs to ignore my warning then on these other reports, even though it is true .

[jojothai]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:27 PM, Woof999 said:

 

Now that is a fact! 😉

😉 The OP needs to also know that it is the land office that charged the extra and not the chanote holder.

[Banana7]

I was told the best way to handle property purchase by a foreigner with a Thai partner was:

 

1. Have the Thai partner purchase the property into their name;

2. Foreigner loans the purchase funds (at market rates) to Thai and registers a mortgage on the property; 

3. Thai provides usufruct to foreigner for 30 years, "to have and hold as if he owned the property", "owner has no right to encumber property without written authorization from usufract beneficiary, usufract beneficiary can transfer all rights of usufract without owner's authorization to any other beneficiary, etc. etc.

 

 

Comments?

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Banana7 said:

I was told the best way to handle property purchase by a foreigner with a Thai partner was:

 

1. Have the Thai partner purchase the property into their name;

2. Foreigner loans the purchase funds (at market rates) to Thai and registers a mortgage on the property; 

3. Thai provides usufruct to foreigner for 30 years, "to have and hold as if he owned the property", "owner has no right to encumber property without written authorization from usufract beneficiary, usufract beneficiary can transfer all rights of usufract without owner's authorization to any other beneficiary, etc. etc.

 

 

Comments?

Partially correct.

 

A Usufruct Agreement is not transferable by the Usufructuary (you). It applies to the signatory (s) and only the signatory (s). The owner can sell the property but the Usufruct remains in place - that renders the property virtually unsaleable in real terms.

 

To obtain the best protection under marital law, make sure the funds to buy the property and the actual purchase are transacted after marriage not before.

 

I am told that some Land Offices, if they know the purchaser is married to a foreigner, are still requiring the foreigner to sign a document stating that they are giving the money to their spouse freely for their own use and they will not make any claim over the property in the future. This is an old thing and was I am told, never the actual law in Thailand but it was something that many Land Offices applied.  A lawyer told me that such a practice is actually illegal because it goes against family law in terms of a dispute on divorce.

 

I think it goes without saying that a Land Office that tries to apply that 'rule' are unlikley to register a foreign mortgage.

 

Where the Land Office will accept and register a foreign mortgage (not all do) It is possible for a foreigner to grant a loan/mortgage etc. - thereby creating a legal charge over the property. The Land Office in my area - Pak Chong, will accept foreign mortgages.

 

30 years is the maximum time allowed in Thailand for a lease. A Usufruct is not a lease. The Usufruct does not have a specified time - it dies when you die. It does not however, expire on death of the owner. Whoever the title is inherited by, or indeed sold to - the Usufruct stays in place and the new owner must accept it.

 

As an addendum - if it is possible to use a Thai friend to purchase the property, do so - that makes life far less messy in the event of a future marriage breakdown. You still take out the mortgage on the property so your investment is protected - its just easier if things go wrong. Your lawyer will tell you why.

 

I would always recommend using a decent lawyer in these matters.

Edited March 11 by MangoKorat

[Banana7]

36 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Partially correct.

 

A Usufruct Agreement is not transferable by the Usufructuary (you). It applies to the signatory (s) and only the signatory (s). The owner can sell the property but the Usufruct remains in place - that renders the property virtually unsaleable in real terms.

 

To obtain the best protection under marital law, make sure the funds to buy the property and the actual purchase are transacted after marriage not before.

 

I am told that some Land Offices, if they know the purchaser is married to a foreigner, are still requiring the foreigner to sign a document stating that they are giving the money to their spouse freely for their own use and they will not make any claim over the property in the future. This is an old thing and was I am told, never the actual law in Thailand but it was something that many Land Offices applied.  A lawyer told me that such a practice is actually illegal because it goes against family law in terms of a dispute on divorce.

 

I think it goes without saying that a Land Office that tries to apply that 'rule' are unlikley to register a foreign mortgage.

 

Where the Land Office will accept and register a foreign mortgage (not all do) It is possible for a foreigner to grant a loan/mortgage etc. - thereby creating a legal charge over the property. The Land Office in my area - Pak Chong, will accept foreign mortgages.

 

30 years is the maximum time allowed in Thailand for a lease. A Usufruct is not a lease. The Usufruct does not have a specified time - it dies when you die. It does not however, expire on death of the owner. Whoever the title is inherited by, or indeed sold to - the Usufruct stays in place and the new owner must accept it.

 

As an addendum - if it is possible to use a Thai friend to purchase the property, do so - that makes life far less messy in the event of a future marriage breakdown. You still take out the mortgage on the property so your investment is protected - its just easier if things go wrong. Your lawyer will tell you why.

 

I would always recommend using a decent lawyer in these matters.

Why make the mortgage after marriage? I may not marry the person. At this time I have no intention of marrying her. Why would I want to be protected under martial law? If our relationship breaks-down, the debt/mortgage is still outstanding against the property.

Edited March 11 by Banana7

[MangoKorat]

16 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

Why make the mortgage after marriage? I may not marry the person. At this time I have no intention of marrying her. If our relationship breaks-down, the debt/mortgage is still outstanding against the property.

It just makes things easier in the event of a divorce but if you don't get married, you won't have that problem. In fact, if you don't get married and things go south - things will be far easier.  It would take pages to explain why -  its all about who's due what and who gets what in a divorce - Thai law.

 

Yes, the debt is still oustanding but the amount of debt may be different to what you think is due to the laws applied on divorce.

 

In all cases, keep a paper trail. Make sure you can show that the funds you transfer were actually yours before you transfer them to Thailand and always transfer them through a bank - don't do it in cash. Yes I know............but you would no believe the size of some cash deals in Thailand.

 

If you do get married, make sure you can prove that the funds used to purchase the property (transferred) were yours before you were married and not earned after you were married.

Edited March 11 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

For an explanation search 'Sin Somros' and 'Sin Suan Tua'

 

Here's one explanation:

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/Marital-Property-for-Thailand-Divorce.php

[Banana7]

11 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

It just makes things easier in the event of a divorce but if you don't get married, you won't have that problem. In fact, if you don't get married and things go south - things will be far easier.  It would take pages to explain why -  its all about who's due what and who gets what in a divorce - Thai law.

 

Yes, the debt is still oustanding but the amount of debt may be different to what you think is due to the laws applied on divorce.

 

In all cases, keep a paper trail. Make sure you can show that the funds you transfer were actually yours before you transfer them to Thailand and always transfer them through a bank - don't do it in cash. Yes I know............but you would no believe the size of some cash deals in Thailand.

 

If you do get married, make sure you can prove that the funds used to purchase the property (transferred) were yours before you were married and not earned after you were married.

I was married once before, not in Thailand. It was a long (5 years) expensive process to get a separation agreement and divorce. Only the lawyers obtained substantial benefit from the process. Can't see any advantages/benefits for me to get married especially in Thailand, especially based on the contents on the siam-legal website posted above. As I discovered personally through my first marriage and as the website states, at the end of marriage, there is only division of assets and perhaps sharing parenting responsibilities of children.

[MangoKorat]

Remember this though:

 

If you don't get married and things break down, your only claim will be on the amount of the mortgage.

 

I can't remember the exact amounts and again it depends in the land office but let's say you purchase a property for 3 million baht.  The Land Office may refuse to allow a mortgage to be registered of say 2.5 million.

 

The most likely scenario - based on what others do is that you buy land and build a house.  So, let's say the land costs 1 million and the build costs 1.5 million.  The Land Office valuation for the property may well be say 600,000.  So to register a mortgage on the property that covers your total outlay - 2.5 million, you could have a hard time persuading the Land Office.

 

Some Land Offices will just accept a mortgage of any amount - they are not really interested  - some can be difficult.  They are all different - this is just one of the reasons that you should always use a lawyer. The Land Office is far more likely to accept a request for a charge over the property in the amount given by a lawyer than they are from you.

 

Yout starting point, if you know where the property will be is to find out if the Land Office accepts foreign mortgages - if they don't, everything else is a waste of time.  I am not sure on this but I think it is far more likely that a Land Office will say yes to a foreign mortgage if asked by a lawyer than they will if you or your girlfriend asks them.

 

The reason for that is xenophobia.  Many Thai's don't want any foreign involvement in Thai land.  There is no law preventing a foreign mortgage but some Land Offices refuse to.  It follows that a request made by a lawyer - someone who knows the law, is far more likely to succeed if they are an office that is opposed to foreign mortgages.

 

My Land Office refused to even accept my Usufruct when I tried to register it personally - no problems for my lawyer.

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Banana7 said:

I was married once before, not in Thailand. It was a long (5 years) expensive process to get a separation agreement and divorce. Only the lawyers obtained substantial benefit from the process. Can't see any advantages/benefits for me to get married especially in Thailand, especially based on the contents on the siam-legal website posted above. As I discovered personally through my first marriage and as the website states, at the end of marriage, there is only division of assets and perhaps sharing parenting responsibilities of children.

True but at least in Thailand, if you can show you owned something (including cash) before you were married, that remains yours and does not form part of any division in the event of a divorce.

[Banana7]

25 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

True but at least in Thailand, if you can show you owned something (including cash) before you were married, that remains yours and does not form part of any division in the event of a divorce.

But the growth in assets and the debts, during marriage, are divided. To be exposed to losing half the growth in assets and gaining half the debt during marriage, will amount to a net loss for me.   

[MangoKorat]

28 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

But the growth in assets and the debts, during marriage, are divided. To be exposed to losing half the growth in assets and gaining half the debt during marriage, will amount to a net loss for me.   

Everyody's circumstances are different. Only you can decide what's best for you. If all you want to do is protect your original investment, that shouldn't be a problem.  The likelihood though, is that you will add to and alter the property over the years.  I don't think there's anything to stop you increasing the mortgage to cover that.

 

Many people say rent, don't buy in Thailand but I've rarely seen a Thai property that suits all my wishes.  I also want to know that in the event of falling on hard times, I don't have any monthly rental to pay.  Owning my own property is far better for me.  I have a Usufruct and a couple of other measures - all done through my lawyer and satisfy me that whereas my name may not be registered on the Chanotte as the owner, I have total control of the property, including the right to sell it and keep the money. All perfectly legal as nothing I hold attempts to state that I am the owner and no attempt has been made to circumvent the Thai Land Laws. The registered owner is still a Thai citizen. I'm single so I don't have to worry about any division of property in the future.

 

The Thai Land Law states that a foreigner cannot own land, it does not state that a foreigner can't control land. Whatever you do to protect yourself, I cannot stress enough that you should seek out and use a good Thai lawyer.  I'm told that in some areas, such a person is difficult to find.  I've used mine for 10 years and I trust what she tells me.  Ask around, try to find the same.

Edited March 11 by MangoKorat

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Partially correct.

 

A Usufruct Agreement is not transferable by the Usufructuary (you). It applies to the signatory (s) and only the signatory (s). The owner can sell the property but the Usufruct remains in place - that renders the property virtually unsaleable in real terms.

 

To obtain the best protection under marital law, make sure the funds to buy the property and the actual purchase are transacted after marriage not before.

 

I am told that some Land Offices, if they know the purchaser is married to a foreigner, are still requiring the foreigner to sign a document stating that they are giving the money to their spouse freely for their own use and they will not make any claim over the property in the future. This is an old thing and was I am told, never the actual law in Thailand but it was something that many Land Offices applied.  A lawyer told me that such a practice is actually illegal because it goes against family law in terms of a dispute on divorce.

 

I think it goes without saying that a Land Office that tries to apply that 'rule' are unlikley to register a foreign mortgage.

 

Where the Land Office will accept and register a foreign mortgage (not all do) It is possible for a foreigner to grant a loan/mortgage etc. - thereby creating a legal charge over the property. The Land Office in my area - Pak Chong, will accept foreign mortgages.

 

30 years is the maximum time allowed in Thailand for a lease. A Usufruct is not a lease. The Usufruct does not have a specified time - it dies when you die. It does not however, expire on death of the owner. Whoever the title is inherited by, or indeed sold to - the Usufruct stays in place and the new owner must accept it.

 

As an addendum - if it is possible to use a Thai friend to purchase the property, do so - that makes life far less messy in the event of a future marriage breakdown. You still take out the mortgage on the property so your investment is protected - its just easier if things go wrong. Your lawyer will tell you why.

 

I would always recommend using a decent lawyer in these matters.

"To obtain the best protection under marital law, make sure the funds to buy the property and the actual purchase are transacted after marriage not before".

 

I strongly disagree.

 

Any contract entered into by man and wife during marriage can be voided upon divorce, including an usufruct. The usufruct must be entered into whilst the couple are both still single.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

"To obtain the best protection under marital law, make sure the funds to buy the property and the actual purchase are transacted after marriage not before".

 

I strongly disagree.

 

Any contract entered into by man and wife during marriage can be voided upon divorce, including an usufruct. The usufruct must be entered into whilst the couple are both still single.

I have heard of that before. I of course, am not a lawyer but the information that I have been given is that which my lawyer gave me.  I'm not sure that a Usufruct can be voided because my understanding is that the rules you refer to only apply in certain circumstances and also that they only apply to a contract of value.  It could be said that a Usufuct is of no value to anyone else other than the Usufructuary because it is not transferable.

 

As for the purchase itself.  If a person loans money to their girlfriend to buy a property and it is bought before marriage, it then becomes Sin Suan Tua and remains so after the marriage. I am unsure as to whether the lender will have a claim to any uplift in value (less the Sin Suan Tua amount) over the years. On that matter I only know UK law as I was caught up in such a scenario.  I owned a property before marriage and my wife, on divorce, could not claim a portion of its value as it was on the date of our marriage when we divorced.  She could however, as we had lived in the property together and therefore she could claim to have taken care of its maintenance etc, claim a portion of the uplift in value. 

 

I have a feeling though, that the law in Thailand is different on that matter and that property treated as Sin Suan Tua includes any uplift in value. In other words it is completely removed from any calculations as to division.

 

If, as the poster is saying, he doesn't plan to get married, he does at least have the option of increasing the mortgage amount if he spends anything on the property or to take account of significant uplifts in value - subject of course, to his partner's agreement. I'd suggest, that a canny wife would refuse to accept such an increase whereas the position of a girlfriend is always regarded as somewhat less secure.

 

As I always say in these matters, get the advice of a good Thai lawyer.  However, they can only advise as things are.  In this case, they can only advise him as if he intends to live with his girlfriend. As a person's situation changes so might their legal position.

 

The Thai government could solve a lot of these problems - and a lot of fighting between couples, if they allowed married foreigners to jointly own property with their spouse.  Upon divorce, a similar method could be applied as exists where a wife leaves a property to a foreign husband on her death.  He has to sell it within, is it 6 or 12 months?  Whatever, they cannot continue to own the property

Edited March 11 by MangoKorat

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

I have heard of that before. I of course, am not a lawyer but the information that I have been given is that which my lawyer gave me.  I'm not sure that a Usufruct can be voided because my understanding is that the rules you refer to only apply in certain circumstances and also that they only apply to a contract of value.  It could be said that a Usufuct is of no value to anyone else other than the Usufructuary because it is not transferable.

 

As for the purchase itself.  If a person loans money to their girlfriend to buy a property and it is bought before marriage, it then becomes Sin Suan Tua and remains so after the marriage. I am unsure as to whether the lender will have a claim to any uplift in value (less the Sin Suan Tua amount) over the years. On that matter I only know UK law as I was caught up in such a scenario.  I owned a property before marriage and my wife, on divorce, could not claim a portion of its value as it was on the date of our marriage when we divorced.  She could however, as we had lived in the property together and therefore she could claim to have taken care of its maintenance etc, claim a portion of the uplift in value. 

 

I have a feeling though, that the law in Thailand is different on that matter and that property treated as Sin Suan Tua includes any uplift in value. In other words it is completely removed from any calculations as to division.

 

If, as the poster is saying, he doesn't plan to get married, he does at least have the option of increasing the mortgage amount if he spends anything on the property or to take account of significant uplifts in value - subject of course, to his partner's agreement. I'd suggest, that a canny wife would refuse to accept such an increase whereas the position of a girlfriend is always regarded as somewhat less secure.

 

As I always say in these matters, get the advice of a good Thai lawyer.  However, they can only advise as things are.  In this case, they can only advise him as if he intends to live with his girlfriend. As a person's situation changes so might their legal position.

 

The Thai government could solve a lot of these problems - and a lot of fighting between couples, if they allowed married foreigners to jointly own property with their spouse.  Upon divorce, a similar method could be applied as exists where a wife leaves a property to a foreign husband on her death.  He has to sell it within, is it 6 or 12 months?  Whatever, they cannot continue to own the property

Trust me, it can be voided, if your ex requests it.

[JensenZ]

On 3/9/2024 at 7:07 PM, UWEB said:

USUFRUCT LAWS IN THAILAND

The right of usufruct transfers possession, use and enjoyment of an immovable property from the owner to the usufructuary. Usufruct can only be registered over properly titled immovable property and is established by agreement with the owner and registration at the local land office. The contract or memorandum for usufruct is the legal document that states and confirms the formal agreement between the owner and the usufructuary (the person granted the right of usufruct).

A few facts about usufruct in Thailand

• The usufructuary does not obtain the title to the property, nor can he sell or consume the property;
• The usufructuary must take as much care of the property as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property;
• The usufructuary is NOT allowed to transfer the right of usufruct, but he is allowed transfer the exercise of his right under the usufruct to another person contrary to the right of habitation (the person granted a right of habitation cannot transfer the exercise of his rights);
• The usufruct does not prevent sale of the property by the owner, but sale of the property does not terminate the usufruct nor the rights of the usufructuary. Usufruct is not a contract right but a real (property) right and as a real right usufruct is a burden on the property itself (any new owner automatically takes the property subject to/ including the right right of usufruct);
• The usufruct is not transferable by inheritance (i.e. the usufruct is automatically terminated upon the usufructuary's death (but not the owner's death));
• The usufruct is governed by the sections 1417 to 1428 Civil and Commercial Code (see law translation below)

Thailand Usufruct Real Estate Laws Usufruct in Thailand. 281 B · 6 downloads

For anyone interested - you can purchase a hard-bound copy of the latest update of The Civil and Commercial Code Thai-English, on Lazada for about 600 baht. It's nearly 1000 pages, so when you don't need to read it, it makes a very good paperweight.

 

The exact location of Usufruct law: Book IV (Property), Chapter III (Co-Ownership), Title VII (Usufruct), Sections 1417 - 1428.

[steevjee]

On 3/9/2024 at 10:20 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Whose name will the villa be in upon purchase?

How old is your daughter?

My name, 51

[KhunLA]

If anyone is considering a usufruct to protect themselves from the wife ... RENT

 

I only had them (usufructs)  to protect myself, incase the wife died.  Now the daughter is adult, and wills made, so present usufruct is irrelevant. 

 

 

[scorecard]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:20 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Whose name will the villa be in upon purchase?

How old is your daughter?

This is an important point. You mention 'villa'. My understanding is that this means land and house. Therefore the owner (as stated n the back of the land title - the chanut) can only be a Thai national.

 

Using a usufruct doesn't mean that the land title (the chanut) will / can show your name as the owner.

 

A usufruct is a document added to the chanut, the usufruct must authorised by the owner of the property (a Thai national) and it gives some rights to another foreigner . I will us me situation as an example:

- The house (house and land) where I live is owned by my Thai adult son. His name (only his name) appears on the back of the chanut as the owner.

-My son added a usufruct showing:

•  I have the right to live in the house until I die. The usufruct obviously shows my full details, passport number etc. 
•  I must sign to approve my son or anybody selling the house and land.
•  I am the only person who can cancel the usufruct. Son cannot cancel it without my signature to cancel.

Family lawyer (in Chiang  Mai) took a document showing the 3 points just above (in Thai and in English) to the CM land title office, she spoke to the land office manager who agreed that a usufruct stating the above is totally level and agreed to create / process a usufruct as above.

 

A few days later all done. 

[SAFETY FIRST]

On 3/9/2024 at 5:36 PM, steevjee said:

pass it on to my daughter after my demise.

Forget the usufruct, put it in your daughters name now. 

 

Edited March 12 by SAFETY FIRST