Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand

[The Cyclist]

26 minutes ago, JimGant said:

But, he wanted to know, per DTA, what he might expect IF and WHEN Thailand goes to world wide taxation. And, yes, that DTA will still be valid.

 

How do you know it will still be valid or even exist, should Thailand take the leap to worldwide taxation ?
 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that taking the huge leap from current taxation to a worldwide taxation, that 61 DTA's could be ripped up and replaced with one single, generic, worldwide DTA ?
 

Jeez, right enough.

[JimGant]

43 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

How do you know it will still be valid or even exist, should Thailand take the leap to worldwide taxation ?

Why is explaining to you so difficult? I've already pointed out that the existing DTAs with Thailand have absolutely nothing in them dealing with Thailand's insistence that only remitted income is subject to the DTA language. This is a Thailand-only footnote, that when removed, will just have the DTA revert to its original intent -- covering ALL income in the specific category. The remittance footnote was just a convenience for Thailand, that had absolutely no affect on the DTA's purpose of preventing double taxation.

 

Do me a favor -- read your country's DTA with Thailand, and show me where in it changes are required to bring this DTA up to speed to accommodate worldwide taxation. I guarantee you won't find any.

 

Out of curiosity -- what is your background? You seem like a bright fella. Just curious about your work background. Fair enuf?

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Why is explaining to you so difficult?

 

It's not, but when people throw  hypotheticals about. Dont be surprised when others throw 

hypotheticals straight back.

 

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Out of curiosity -- what is your background? You seem like a bright fella. Just curious about your work background. Fair enuf?

 

Bright enough to have worked around the world and accumulate more money than I will ever need. Without falling foul of any tax jusidiction. 

 

That can be split into 2 parts.

 

I worked around the world, on lowish wages, but half decent conditions, in return for a gold plated, index linked, Government pension, at a very young age.

 

I then worked around the world for very high tax free wages, but crap conditions, in return for a retirement that is free of any monetary stress.

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

It's not, but when people throw  hypotheticals about. Dont be surprised when others throw 

hypotheticals straight back.

 

 

Bright enough to have worked around the world and accumulate more money than I will ever need. Without falling foul of any tax jusidiction. 

 

That can be split into 2 parts.

 

I worked around the world, on lowish wages, but half decent conditions, in return for a gold plated, index linked, Government pension, at a very young age.

 

I then worked around the world for very high tax free wages, but crap conditions, in return for a retirement that is free of any monetary stress.

 

Military?

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

We will need to wait and see.

 

MANY predicted Type-O non-immigrant visa route would follow the path of the Type-OA visa and require health insurance.  Opinions on this were INCREDIBLY STRONG.

 

Has it happened yet?  No.

 

Could a Tax Clearance Certificate happen for 1-year annual extensions happen?  Possibly.  And possibly not.  This is Thailand and I have no predictions.

 

I think we will need to wait and see.

Yes, I have said we will all have to wait and see, but in a previous posts you focused on reasons as to why Thailand will not do it, and totally disregarded any reason for why they will do it, the biggest reason for doing it being MONEY.

 

What government, from any country around the world, walks away from easy tax targets, and I use the word "tax" loosely, because like I have said, for most, it might just turn into another piece of paper you have to have at extension time for 300, 500, or 1000 baht, which will not be a true representation of one's tax liability. 

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I predict nothing will happen early next year, apart from more predictions.

The Thai government clearly has little interest in advancing the initial announcement by a government nobody, all subsequent discussions were fueled by speculation from foreigner owned (probably illegal but definitely shady) financial companies trying to extract money from the 'at risk' elderly foreign retirees.

Do you think they will walk away from this tax as well? 

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/thailand-implement-global-minimum-corporate-tax-rate-jan-1

[oldcpu]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, I have said we will all have to wait and see, but in a previous posts you focused on reasons as to why Thailand will not do it, and totally disregarded any reason for why they will do it, the biggest reason for doing it being MONEY.

 

I think  I was clear , and you even quoted me on it, where i typed

 

"Could a Tax Clearance Certificate happen for 1-year annual extensions happen?  Possibly.  And possibly not.  This is Thailand and I have no predictions."

 

I assume English is your 2nd language?

 

There is an important distinction between "could" and "would" or "will".

 

I specifically typed "could".  And I typed "possibly" and "possibly not".  I also typed "I have no predictions".  That is a FAR CRY from "will not" .

 

What part of that do you not understand?  How can I explain that better for you?

 

 

[Presnock]

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

AS has been mentioned way too many times to count - who knows what the Thai govt will come out with the new tax scheme and when?  They seem to be including the new worldwide scheme with the 15% corporate tax as the OECD seems to like.  We have also heard from the agents or those with folks seemingly working on the new interpretation/law change that there are a lot of dissension among those in the finance dept so no one outside really has any idea of what will be the final plan nor how it will affect expat retirees and/other farangs as well as Thai folks being affected.  It still remains anybody's guess only - after all it announces at the beginning of this forum - users opinions only!

FYI:  3 days later but looks like the information from that ASEAN Briefing article but if anyone is inerested, since it being disseminated by different news, hopefully the TRD or Govt Finance Ministry might give all a heads up too:

https://asianafrican.org/thailand-2025-global-income-tax-key-impacts-for-residents-investors/

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

FYI:  3 days later but looks like the information from that ASEAN Briefing article but if anyone is inerested, since it being disseminated by different news, hopefully the TRD or Govt Finance Ministry might give all a heads up too:

https://asianafrican.org/thailand-2025-global-income-tax-key-impacts-for-residents-investors/

 

Did you mean this link:

 

https://asianafrican.org/thailands-2025-global-income-tax-key-impacts-for-residents-and-investors/

 

The one you provided gives a 404 error.

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I think  I was clear , and you even quoted me on it, where i typed

 

"Could a Tax Clearance Certificate happen for 1-year annual extensions happen?  Possibly.  And possibly not.  This is Thailand and I have no predictions."

 

I assume English is your 2nd language?

 

There is an important distinction between "could" and "would" or "will".

 

I specifically typed "could".  And I typed "possibly" and "possibly not".  I also typed "I have no predictions".  That is a FAR CRY from "will not" .

 

What part of that do you not understand?  How can I explain that better for you?

 

 

English is my first language. 

 

So, you have contradicted yourself then. 

 

You say it "possibly" could happen in a later post, but in a previous post, list several reasons why you think it will not happen, and zero reasons for why it may happen. 

 

Basically, you have said it will not happen in one post, and in another post have said it "possibly" could happen. 

 

No one knows how this will unfold, and I keep an open mind.

 

I have put forward that when easy tax revenue is involved, governments tend not to walk away from the money. 

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that taking the huge leap from current taxation to a worldwide taxation, that 61 DTA's could be ripped up and replaced with one single, generic, worldwide DTA ?

 

That is beyond the realm of possibility.

 

DTA's are bilateral agreements between countries, thus each country-specific DTA would have to be renegotiated..........with each country. 

 

There can be no worldwide DTA outside of a new world order.

 

Thailand 'could' terminate each individual DTA, per individual treaty terms, but not likely.  Assume Thailand signed the agreements for a reason; terminating would lose the benefits they signed up for.

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

English is my first language. 

 

So, you have contradicted yourself then. 

 

You say it "possibly" could happen in a later post, but in a previous post, list several reasons why you think it will not happen, and zero reasons for why it may happen. 

 

Basically, you have said it will not happen in one post, and in another post have said it "possibly" could happen. 

 

No one knows how this will unfold, and I keep an open mind.

 

I have put forward that when easy tax revenue is involved, governments tend not to walk away from the money. 

No. 

 

" will " is your words.

 

" could " is the word I choose.

 

Read again the relevant posts.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Not only were posts deleted, they were also ' edited ' by an unknown entity 😀😀 who was not the original poster of the comment.

 

Thankfully, I am not the only one who has recognised this.

It was all rather strange. 

 

The Thai government announced the tax, but members were not allowed to discuss how it would be collected and when, and any punitive measure for non payment. Such policies exist in the countries where expats have come from, so it's not new to them, yet, it was called "scaremongering." 

 

Anyway, glad there was finally some freedom of speech allowed on the topic. 

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

No. 

 

" will " is your words.

 

" could " is the word I choose.

 

Read again the relevant posts.

 

 

Moving alone mow.

 

Can you put forward any reasons why this tax "may" happen? 

 

We've heard why you think it will not happen. 

[Presnock]

39 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Did you mean this link:

 

https://asianafrican.org/thailands-2025-global-income-tax-key-impacts-for-residents-and-investors/

 

The one you provided gives a 404 error.

yep, another error....glad you saw it and corrected it!

[chiang mai]

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It was all rather strange. 

 

The Thai government announced the tax, but members were not allowed to discuss how it would be collected and when, and any punitive measure for non payment. Such policies exist in the countries where expats have come from, so it's not new to them, yet, it was called "scaremongering." 

 

Anyway, glad there was finally some freedom of speech allowed on the topic. 

It was before my time but I did watch some of those exchanges. My recall is that there was a lot of attempts to discuss tax evasion  and also a LOT of scaremongering about enforcement, particularly about  an enforced link between tax returns and visa extensions.....I think it was right to shut them down because discussions about such things was hugely premature and confusing. Even today we see mention of World Wide Income becoming intermingled with POR161 rules and many don't understand the difference. There is a need for the topic to remain focussed.

[anrcaccount]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I get your point.

HOWEVER. in the Thai tax system you file without the need to document.

Documentation demands only come IF you're audited.

So having a DEFENSIBLE plan for how you are SELF determining your tax situation is required either from the taxpayer himself or a preparer.

I got the First In First Out guideline from a Thai owned tax specialist company.

Would it be accepted by TR on audit?

I can't predict the future but following that is better than having no logical structure for your self determination.

 

 

Yes. Fair enough and I get your point.

 

Would note a couple of things:

 

First, there's no evidence to suggest any new enforcement of an old law that's had an internal interpretation change. IMO if TRD was planning to enforce any taxation system of foreign remittance, there would have been much more guidance/direction released. 

 

Second, while I'm sure FIFO would be an acceptable method, would caution you relying on (likely non sourced) advice of an agency that sprung up in October 2023 (assuming based on your other posts) , and has possibly not ever filed a Thai tax return, almost certainly not one including any foreign remitted income. What about LIFO? 

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that taking the huge leap from current taxation to a worldwide taxation, that 61 DTA's could be ripped up and replaced with one single, generic, worldwide DTA ?

 

But to describe the replacement doc as a "single, generic, worldwide DTA" is IMHO a complete misnomer since we would, in effect, be talking about a taxation diktat which Thailand has seen fit to impose unilaterally on the international community. And, were Thailand foolish enough to bin all existing 61 DTA's, it had better IMHO brace itself for a severe backlash from the international community, which might well take the form of harsh economic sanctions aimed at bringing the country to its knees.

[oldcpu]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Moving alone mow.

 

Can you put forward any reasons why this tax "may" happen? 

 

We've heard why you think it will not happen. 

 

No.  I stated why it "could" (ie why it could be the extra work results in nothing happening).   I never stated "will" .  That is your deliberate misconstruing of another's post.

 

I find it difficult to believe English is your first language given your inability to know the difference between "could" and "will ".

 

Serious.

 

Are you  trying to invent someone to debate with by misconstruing their views?   That is how it looks.

 

Such misconstruing the views of others (when they state "could" as opposed to "will") shows a major effort on your part to deliberately misconstrue someone's elses post - probably to grind your own axe.

 

As for reasons why such will (or wlll not) happen.  I do NOT have reasons why it "WILL" or "WILL NOT" .  OK?  Lets be clear.

 

As for reasons why it could happen, I think you stated such. OK?

 

You really need to learn the difference between "will" and "could".

 

I see no point in replying further on this, given you deliberately misconstrue what others state (or you simply do not understand differences in word use in the English language).

 

EDIT: To help you here:

 

"The main difference between "could" and "will" is that "could" suggests uncertainty or a conditional outcome, while "will" indicates a stronger intention or certainty."

.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/29/2024 at 11:17 AM, chiang mai said:

It was before my time but I did watch some of those exchanges. My recall is that there was a lot of attempts to discuss tax evasion  and also a LOT of scaremongering about enforcement, particularly about  an enforced link between tax returns and visa extensions.....I think it was right to shut them down because discussions about such things was hugely premature and confusing. Even today we see mention of World Wide Income becoming intermingled with POR161 rules and many don't understand the difference. There is a need for the topic to remain focussed.

A little contradictory.

 

You say there is a need for focused discussion, and then say it was right to shut conversation down because it was scaremongering. 

 

We are all adults here, and many chose to live in Thailand to escape the "woke" and political correctness BS of our various home countries. 

 

That "link" was obviously to hundreds of members, with many members who did not consider it, later on agreeing about its possibility, yet, delete, delete, delete, delete as scaremongering. 

 

Question for you, if it was "scary" back then, while isn't it still "scary" now? 

 

Fact is, little has changed, and we are all still in wait and see mode.  

 

In my opinion, it's only right that all members can put all things on the table for this one, because anything is possible in the near future, and I am glad that more free speech is allowed in relation to collection and enforcement, because without these two things, the Thai's have no tax remittance policy at all, so they must have something up their sleeve by way of collection and enforcement. 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

A little contradictory.

 

You say there is a need for focused discussion, and then say it was right to shut conversation down because it was scaremongering. 

 

We are all adults here, and many chose to live in Thailand to escape the "woke" and political correctness BS of our various home countries. 

 

That "link" was obviously to hundreds of members, with many members who did not consider it, later on agreeing about its possibility, yet, delete, delete, delete, delete as scaremongering. 

 

Question for you, if it was "scary" back then, while isn't it still "scary" now? 

 

Fact is, little has changed, and we are all still in wait and see mode.  

 

In my opinion, it's only right that all members can put all things on the table for this one, because anything is possible in the near future, and I am glad that more free speech is allowed in relation to collection and enforcement, because without these two things, the Thai's have no tax remittance policy at all, so they must have something up their sleeve by way of collection and enforcement. 

"Question for you, if it was "scary" back then, while isn't it still "scary" now?" 

 

"Fact is, little has changed, and we are all still in wait and see mode".  

 

Six nine and twelve months ago, the whole Thai tax issue was brand new to many, if not most members. Slowly, over time, the number of people becoming "tax aware" has increased to the point where today, most understand the situation or at least have an idea about what's involved.....it has taken time for the message to spread across the community and sink in.

 

I personally don't think it was reasonable six and nine months ago to go from no, or very little, understanding of the subject matter, up through enforcement and compulsory tax returns being required to obtain a visa, overnight, especially when so little was understood about what was being required. 

 

You may be a proponent of free speech, meaning that everybody can say whatever they want, and in doing so, scare the pants off older more vulnerable members who didn't understand the first thing about the subject matter. I am no such proponent and it appears Lister wasn't either. In that regard I think it was right to restrict the discussion to the components that were somewhat known and could sensibly be discussed, without terrifying people and allowing them to jump to inappropriate conclusions..

 

Today, one year on, the membership understands far more about what is likely to be required and many of the gaps have been filled in the collective understanding than it did six months ago. Much of the reason for this is because the tax consultancies have produced material that members have been able to read, understand and debate. Another reason is because of the debates that have taken place to dissect the information that was put out there. Regardless of what anyone may think of expat tax, the business has been a massive help in providing information to aid the collective understanding of the issues.

 

Free speech, like democracy, is great as a principle but in practise it needs to be managed, if the needs of everyone is to be met in a reasonable manner, rather than just the needs of the few. You don't begin a discussion on tax by debating penalties, enforcement and telling people they wont be able to get a visa extension, unless they file a tax return, that is plain and simply wrong and inappropriate, ditto tax evasion discussions, The better and more constructive approach is to understand the issues in more detail and figure out as much as you can first, later you can turn up the heat, once everyone has understand more but that requires time and patience.

[liddelljohn]

Why worry its all easily avoided when a bit of forward planning ,, I paid zero Tax in thailand for 28 years  and zero Tax in EU  and UK for same period  when working around the world  ,, Now  retired i pay a tiny bit of tax in UK  on pensions , non in EU where i have some assets   and will pay non in Thailand .

[topt]

14 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

Why worry its all easily avoided when a bit of forward planning

Sorry but I think that is an absurd generalisation and is very dependant on an individuals specific circumstances.

Good for you if you can avoid it.

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, topt said:

...  is very dependant on an individuals specific circumstances.

Good for you if you can avoid it.

 

That's also my view. Each individual needs to consider their own circumstances and plan (best they can) accordingly.

 

The great thing about threads such as this (if we can all do our best to be civil to each other, including myself) is that we exchange knowledge, and we have our misunderstandings corrected, and we can help correct the misunderstandings of others - while sharing, and advancing the knowledge in regards to potential taxation management.

 

Armed with such knowledge, we can better plan.

 

Best wishes.

[Ricohoc]

100% of what I brought into Thailand via ATM withdrawals came from savings prior to January 1, 2024 (and I have the receipts to back it up).

 

If savings prior to January 1, 2024 is not a deduction, then the other current deductions and Social Security will zero out anything that I may owe.

 

The US/Thailand DTA shows that both Social Security and state pensions are exempt. If that is honored, then that will zero out anything that I may owe.

 

Quote

ARTICLE 20
Pensions and Social Security Payments
 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall
be taxable only in that State.
 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

 

Looking forward to getting some more specific guidance from Thailand's RD, but I'm not optimistic in that regard.

[chiang mai]

19 minutes ago, Ricohoc said:

100% of what I brought into Thailand via ATM withdrawals came from savings prior to January 1, 2024 (and I have the receipts to back it up).

 

If savings prior to January 1, 2024 is not a deduction, then the other current deductions and Social Security will zero out anything that I may owe.

 

The US/Thailand DTA shows that both Social Security and state pensions are exempt. If that is honored, then that will zero out anything that I may owe.

 

 

 

Looking forward to getting some more specific guidance from Thailand's RD, but I'm not optimistic in that regard.

 

"If savings prior to January 1, 2024 is not a deduction, then the other current deductions and Social Security will zero out anything that I may owe".

 

I think I understand what you mean but what you've written makes no sense, so, for the avoidance of doubt:

 

Savings earned prior to 31/12/2023 is exempt and not taxable.

 

US Social Security and UK State pension, along with most government or civil service pensions are exempt when remitted to Thailand,

 

You are entitled to Tax Exemptions Deductions and Allowances, known as TEDA. A person under age 65 years of age might expect TEDA of around 60k per year. A person over age 65 years is entitled to TEDA of over 350k. IN ADDITION, the first 150k of income is zero rated for tax. All of that means you can earn 500k, before being taxed (if over age 65)

 

 

The following is worth reading.

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

I still don't see the 2024 tax forms anywhere, I imagine they might be posted after the new years holidays...perhaps?

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

US Social Security and UK State pension, along with most government or civil service pensions are exempt when remitted to Thailand,

 

A brainfart ? Or do you know something that I dont ?

[Mutt Daeng]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I still don't see the 2024 tax forms anywhere, I imagine they might be posted after the new years holidays...perhaps?

Hopefully before the filing deadline

[chiang mai]

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A brainfart ? Or do you know something that I dont ?

Brain fart....I had half a bottle of beer last night, dreadful hangover this AM.

 

Well spotted, apologies to all.