15 hours ago, JimGant said:

Mike disappeared from this forum on July 21, 2024. There have been no "latest versions" since.

Thanks.

I quit reading several months ago waiting for the dust to settle. It has now I think. No urgency on my part since I won't owe and won't get a TIN until I have to.

I saved the post for reference.

In any event Lister did a wonderful job.

 

I hope he doing well. 

On 5/12/2025 at 1:19 PM, Jingthing said:

This is totally ridiculous.

Again USA retirement accounts are not on any planet the same thing as mutual funds.

That's like saying a bag of groceries which may contain carrots is a carrot.

 

Listen Closely - YOU COULD BE WRONG.  I am bothering to write this is information to anyone interested - not just in reply to you (it is not all about you).

 

What Thailand decides is a Mutual Fund is what Thailand decides is a 'mutual fund'. This is not the West where interpretation of Laws and the meaning of phrases/words in that Law, are based upon the legal system of Common Law. Common Law is based upon past Court Precedent (decisions) and higher Courts up to the Supreme/High Court rulings on those Precedents.  But every single legal definition in Thailand is what the appropriate delegated Officer decides it is.  And if you take it all the way to the Supreme Court - listen closely again - whatever that decision is ONLY APPLIES TO YOUR CASE !!!  Thailand does not have a Common Law based legal system.

 

The legal system here is that what one Govt Officer's interpretation of a Law and the meaning of any phrase or word in a particular situation - is valid - and is the decision. Everyone here has the right to get a Govt Officer ruling changed by Appeal (in Thai), but again - that change is only valid for that case. Everyone here has the right to then take the matter (in Thai) to Court to get the ruling changed, but again - that change is only valid for that case. What usually happens what that happens is that the Court decision is then advised to all the appropriate Officers for their future assessments of each case - but it is still their authority to make whatever decision they make - every case is different here. What often happens here in Thailand is that the Govt Dept (TRD in this case) will take the matter to Court and get them to make a decision.

 

Unless you can provide a link to a Tax related Court case where the definition of what is a mutual fund has been decided, AND the directive subsequently issued by the TRD stating this definition is appropriate in most situations, then YOU COULD BE WRONG.  I could be wrong too - but my statement is based upon what research I have done (a lot) and there aint no definition of a mutual fund and TRD directive that I have found, plus my understanding of the legal system here - minimal, but obviously much more than yours. 

 

The Thai legal system (including tax laws and rules) is extremely difficult and complex. Unfortunately Thailand was never fully colonised and given a legal system based upon the western system from UK/USA/France.   This is an example of what is a Mutal Fund in Thailand - "Notification of the Office of the Securities and Exchange Commission - No. Sor Nor. 88/2558' (which has not relation to or impact upon TRD). 

https://publish.sec.or.th/nrs/7209se.pdf

 

This is what Google AI states - which I tend to also agree with in this case:

 

In Thailand, a mutual fund is an investment vehicle where multiple investors pool their money, and that pooled money is then invested in a diverse range of securities (like stocks, bonds, etc.) by professional fund managers. These funds are managed by asset management companies according to their stated investment policies, aiming to generate returns for the investors. Retirement Mutual Funds (RMFs) are a specific type of mutual fund designed for long-term savings and retirement planning, and they do offer tax benefits. 

 

Go Fish (that is for you).

 

14 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Listen Closely - YOU COULD BE WRONG.  I am bothering to write this is information to anyone interested - not just in reply to you (it is not all about you).

 

What Thailand decides is a Mutual Fund is what Thailand decides is a 'mutual fund'. This is not the West where interpretation of Laws and the meaning of phrases/words in that Law, are based upon the legal system of Common Law. Common Law is based upon past Court Precedent (decisions) and higher Courts up to the Supreme/High Court rulings on those Precedents.  But every single legal definition in Thailand is what the appropriate delegated Officer decides it is.  And if you take it all the way to the Supreme Court - listen closely again - whatever that decision is ONLY APPLIES TO YOUR CASE !!!  Thailand does not have a Common Law based legal system.

 

The legal system here is that what one Govt Officer's interpretation of a Law and the meaning of any phrase or word in a particular situation - is valid - and is the decision. Everyone here has the right to get a Govt Officer ruling changed by Appeal (in Thai), but again - that change is only valid for that case. Everyone here has the right to then take the matter (in Thai) to Court to get the ruling changed, but again - that change is only valid for that case. What usually happens what that happens is that the Court decision is then advised to all the appropriate Officers for their future assessments of each case - but it is still their authority to make whatever decision they make - every case is different here. What often happens here in Thailand is that the Govt Dept (TRD in this case) will take the matter to Court and get them to make a decision.

 

Unless you can provide a link to a Tax related Court case where the definition of what is a mutual fund has been decided, AND the directive subsequently issued by the TRD stating this definition is appropriate in most situations, then YOU COULD BE WRONG.  I could be wrong too - but my statement is based upon what research I have done (a lot) and there aint no definition of a mutual fund and TRD directive that I have found, plus my understanding of the legal system here - minimal, but obviously much more than yours. 

 

The Thai legal system (including tax laws and rules) is extremely difficult and complex. Unfortunately Thailand was never fully colonised and given a legal system based upon the western system from UK/USA/France.   This is an example of what is a Mutal Fund in Thailand - "Notification of the Office of the Securities and Exchange Commission - No. Sor Nor. 88/2558' (which has not relation to or impact upon TRD). 

https://publish.sec.or.th/nrs/7209se.pdf

 

This is what Google AI states - which I tend to also agree with in this case:

 

In Thailand, a mutual fund is an investment vehicle where multiple investors pool their money, and that pooled money is then invested in a diverse range of securities (like stocks, bonds, etc.) by professional fund managers. These funds are managed by asset management companies according to their stated investment policies, aiming to generate returns for the investors. Retirement Mutual Funds (RMFs) are a specific type of mutual fund designed for long-term savings and retirement planning, and they do offer tax benefits. 

 

Go Fish (that is for you).

 

I have not heard even one "expert" in these matters say IRAs and 401ks are mutual funds under Thai law.

Sure they could be anything under Thai law.

They could be pop tarts.

 

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I have not heard even one "expert" in these matters say IRAs and 401ks are mutual funds under Thai law.

Sure they could be anything under Thai law.

 

Somehow I've lost the whole point of this discussion. Money remitted to Thailand from an IRA has lost any identity it may of had in the IRA. If it was a stock mutual fund, those stocks were sold, and it is now fungible cash, with no mutual fund identity. This cash is remitted to Thailand, and the DTA says Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this remitted income -- because it represents IRA income. There's no mutual fund identity to this remittance -- it's strictly nondescript cash representing income deemed assessable, per DTA, for Thai tax purposes. So, how do you play the "mutual fund" card in this scenario, particularly if only a small percentage of your IRA withdrawal represents mutual fund holdings in your IRA?

1 hour ago, No Forwarding Address said:

I have a question, any hope there will be a waiver of taxes for any money brought in to purchase a Condominium in Thailand……….all the ‘don't buy anything in Thailand’ crowd can stay out of this.  I own one already and am interested in buying another, but if I have to pay taxes on the money brought in, I will opt out.   Any insight on this??      Peace

 

Depends on your residential status, source of funds, DTA etc etc.

55 minutes ago, No Forwarding Address said:

I have a question, any hope there will be a waiver of taxes for any money brought in to purchase a Condominium in Thailand……

Sure. If that money is not assessable income per the DTA, like govt pensions and Social Security. Or pre 2024 income, as found in savings accounts, CDs, IRAs, etc (exempt per Por 162 decree). Or a loan from your bank, or a loan from mortgaging your house or other assets. Inheritances. Gift from Aunt Agnes.

 

Still short, 'cause you only have assessable income, like from a 2024 or later private pension? Instead of remitting it to Thailand (and thus subject to taxation), buy an asset you can collateralize, then take a loan and send that money to Thailand.

 

By the way, no one is going to scrutinize the assessability of your remittances. It would be too resource intensive -- with few gains -- to talk to everyone with large remittances. Besides, BoI is doing all they can to encourage Foreign Direct Investment. And harassing potential investors ain't in the cards.

 

Just curious: Why do you think the money you might forward to Thailand for a condo purchase -- would be assessable for Thai tax purposes? Are you cashing out a large chunk of IRA? If so, literal reading says Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 monies in this IRA -- just pay Uncle Sam.

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I have not heard even one "expert" in these matters say IRAs and 401ks are mutual funds under Thai law.

Sure they could be anything under Thai law.

They could be pop tarts.

 

We have a name for people like you in Australia - <removed> suffering richardcraniums. Lets block EO. 

20 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

Depends on your residential status, source of funds, DTA etc etc.

@No Forwarding Address

That above - and also whether it is 'taxable income' under the Thailand tax laws.  Dont ask me for any certainty - it is all very 'interpretive' as to what means what, here in Thailand.  My position as stated many times is to wait until TRD moves to a global taxation system - they are currently working on it. Until then - perhaps not a good idea unless you have 'clear proof' that the source of the money is not income earned after 1 Jan 2024 - such as a Bank Account records showing the source and that the funds have been in that account since before 1 Jan 2024.  Otherwise, you must have 'clear proof' that the money was not income as defined under Thai tax laws.  "Clear Proof' is not defined - it is basically whatever the TRD Officers decides is acceptable. The only definite exemption is living in Thailand for less than 180 days in any calendar year - buy then and all is good - everything else is 'interpretive'. 

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

@No Forwarding Address

That above - and also whether it is 'taxable income' under the Thailand tax laws.  Dont ask me for any certainty - it is all very 'interpretive' as to what means what, here in Thailand.  My position as stated many times is to wait until TRD moves to a global taxation system - they are currently working on it. Until then - perhaps not a good idea unless you have 'clear proof' that the source of the money is not income earned after 1 Jan 2024 - such as a Bank Account records showing the source and that the funds have been in that account since before 1 Jan 2024.  Otherwise, you must have 'clear proof' that the money was not income as defined under Thai tax laws.  "Clear Proof' is not defined - it is basically whatever the TRD Officers decides is acceptable. The only definite exemption is living in Thailand for less than 180 days in any calendar year - buy then and all is good - everything else is 'interpretive'. 

 

Another point - I saw an interview recently where the 'expert' said that TRD is seeking as part of its implementing of a global taxation system, a compulsory bank rule (by the Bank of Thailand) that all banks must report to them any accounts that have 2+ million baht remitted from overseas in any calendar year.  That request will go (or has gone) to the Ministry of Finance who if they approve, will then be required to make a change to the Financial Institutions Businesses Act.  There is a LOT going on and TRD is very busy - but until they are finished and have all the rules established for the new global taxation system - IMO Expats should carry on as they have for the last 20-30 years.  

On 5/18/2025 at 2:27 PM, JimGant said:

just pay Uncle Sam.

Even if he is not in the GA world??

A change to the Tax Laws is being processed that basically changes everything back to the way they were before the badly thought out (idiotic) change that was made on January 1 2024.

 

Foreign Earnings Taxed Under New Thai Rules - But With Exceptions - Page 2 - Thailand News - Thailand News, Travel & Forum - ASEAN NOW

https://aseannow.com/topic/1361086-foreign-earnings-taxed-under-new-thai-rules-but-with-exceptions/

 

"The initiative aims to expedite the repatriation of foreign income, thereby potentially boosting domestic investment. The department acknowledges that the current taxation structure has somewhat deterred Thais from bringing foreign-earned capital back home."     No sheite Einstein !!

 

IMO this means all Expat's Pensions are not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. It also means that any 'income' earned (like interest etc) is not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. IMO this means that  99% of retired/married Expats who bring money into Thailand are AOK.  Happy Days.

 

When TRD implements the global taxation system, that all might change - so best to stay across things going forward.  I feel sorry for all those that were 'conned' into paying to get a TIN and do a Tax Return by those with agendas or with 'issues'.  No names No pack drill.

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

A change to the Tax Laws is being processed that basically changes everything back to the way they were before the badly thought out (idiotic) change that was made on January 1 2024.

 

Foreign Earnings Taxed Under New Thai Rules - But With Exceptions - Page 2 - Thailand News - Thailand News, Travel & Forum - ASEAN NOW

https://aseannow.com/topic/1361086-foreign-earnings-taxed-under-new-thai-rules-but-with-exceptions/

 

"The initiative aims to expedite the repatriation of foreign income, thereby potentially boosting domestic investment. The department acknowledges that the current taxation structure has somewhat deterred Thais from bringing foreign-earned capital back home."     No sheite Einstein !!

 

IMO this means all Expat's Pensions are not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. It also means that any 'income' earned (like interest etc) is not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. IMO this means that  99% of retired/married Expats who bring money into Thailand are AOK.  Happy Days.

 

Spot on, well said.

 

Assuming this change is implemented as written, this thread will be of little to no use.

 

It wasn't necessary before the internal directive changed, and it won't be once it changes again. Happy Days, indeed. 

 

 

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

When TRD implements the global taxation system, that all might change - so best to stay across things going forward.  I feel sorry for all those that were 'conned' into paying to get a TIN and do a Tax Return by those with agendas or with 'issues'.  No names No pack drill.

 

I too have sympathy for the individuals, especially those who were frightened enough to leave the country etc, a massive overreaction IMO, but given the hysteria, understandable for some. 

 

I have no sympathy however, for the predatory 'tax agencies' who have been responsible for much of the 'conning' , who will need to find a new business model, as (assuming this goes through) processing tax returns for expats will be close to non-existent.

10 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

A change to the Tax Laws is being processed that basically changes everything back to the way they were before the badly thought out (idiotic) change that was made on January 1 2024.

 

Foreign Earnings Taxed Under New Thai Rules - But With Exceptions - Page 2 - Thailand News - Thailand News, Travel & Forum - ASEAN NOW

https://aseannow.com/topic/1361086-foreign-earnings-taxed-under-new-thai-rules-but-with-exceptions/

 

"The initiative aims to expedite the repatriation of foreign income, thereby potentially boosting domestic investment. The department acknowledges that the current taxation structure has somewhat deterred Thais from bringing foreign-earned capital back home."     No sheite Einstein !!

 

IMO this means all Expat's Pensions are not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. It also means that any 'income' earned (like interest etc) is not taxable if remitted in the same year or the next year. IMO this means that  99% of retired/married Expats who bring money into Thailand are AOK.  Happy Days.

 

When TRD implements the global taxation system, that all might change - so best to stay across things going forward.  I feel sorry for all those that were 'conned' into paying to get a TIN and do a Tax Return by those with agendas or with 'issues'.  No names No pack drill.

 

After watching things play out in an unserious way over several months, consulting an attorney and looking at my deductions, I stopped sweating any of this taxation in January 2025.

 

But this good news certainly reinforces all of my thinking on this issue.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

Do you have to declare all of you accessible income for the year when bringing money over here or can you decide how much accessible income you bring over and say the rest of the money you bring over is from previous to 1st of 2024 savings

54 minutes ago, offset said:

Do you have to declare all of you accessible income for the year when bringing money over here or can you decide how much accessible income you bring over and say the rest of the money you bring over is from previous to 1st of 2024 savings

The Thai tax system is a 'self assessed' system. You decide what is taxable income and act accordingly - but keep records in case the TRD checks you - which is extremely unlikely, and even then not unless you are regularly over several years remitting into Thailand over 2 million baht a year (that is the amount the TRD has asked for the banks to report).  With this change, any income earned overseas after 1 Jan 2024 and remitted to Thailand will be no longer taxable income, if it is remitted within 2 years of it being earned.  Everything earned before 1 Jan 2024 stays as before, and is not taxable income.  That will mean the vast majority of Expats are OK.

 

However, when Thailand moves to a global based tax system that may change. A global based system, means any money you earn overseas in any year is taxable income. BUT like most other SEAsian and World countries (not USA), I anticipate that Thailand will also rule that the income of retired Expats (and other non Citizens who are tax residents) is not taxable, if it has already been subjected to the taxation system of the country it comes from. That does not mean 'taxed' (it could be tax exempt) but as long as it is 'subjected to' then it will be non-taxable. Besides the obvious downsides to retired Expats if they did tax it all worldwide - if Thailand is going to tax the investment earnings of an executive of a Japanese/Korean/etc company working in Thailand for the usual 1-2-3 year stint, there will be no executives of Japanese/Korean/etc companies working in Thailand for over 180 days.  Me thinks TRD might have just learned about the 'law of unintended consequences' when they stupidly decided to change the tax rule as a tax grab - maybe 🙂

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The Thai tax system is a 'self assessed' system. You decide what is taxable income and act accordingly

 

Then why is Section 40 in the Thai Revenue Code ?

Just so I'm clear on things.

Aren't we supposed to self-determine whether the monies we remit are assessable & reportable according to the rules? And, if we remit only non-assessable monies such as; pre-2024 monies, or US Social Security which is supposed to be only taxable by the US (as per the USA-THA DTA), then we should not need to file a tax return or pay taxes on those monies. Is that correct?

 

Also, if one is a LTR-WP visa holder, then all monies remitted are supposed to be tax exempt as per Royal Decree, so one should not need to file a tax return or pay tax on any monies remitted. Is that correct?

20 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just so I'm clear on things.

Aren't we supposed to self-determine whether the monies we remit are assessable & reportable according to the rules? And, if we remit only non-assessable monies such as; pre-2024 monies, or US Social Security which is supposed to be only taxable by the US (as per the USA-THA DTA), then we should not need to file a tax return or pay taxes on those monies. Is that correct?

 

Also, if one is a LTR-WP visa holder, then all monies remitted are supposed to be tax exempt as per Royal Decree, so one should not need to file a tax return or pay tax on any monies remitted. Is that correct?

 

Correct on all counts, you're clear. 

44 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Then why is Section 40 in the Thai Revenue Code ?

 

That defines the categories that are assessable.  You decide whether the money you remit belongs in one of these categories.

7 minutes ago, treetops said:

That defines the categories that are assessable.

 

Exactly

 

Section 40:of the Revenue code dictates what is assessable income.

 

Not DTA's or Visa's

Going a steep further is the tax free allowance in the UK assessable income in Thailand 

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Section 40:of the Revenue code dictates what is assessable income.

 

Not DTA's or Visa's

Ah, Section 40 has all 61 DTAs memorized.

12 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Ah, Section 40 has all 61 DTAs memorized.

 

The Thai Revenue Code would not have International agreements memorized.

 

Domestic - International. Not difficult to make the distinction.

 

That would be up to the Individual to supply the evidence of why they are claiming an exemption / tax credit / any other.

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

That would be up to the Individual to supply the evidence of why they are claiming an exemption / tax credit / any other.

You mean up to the individual to self assess why he's omitting certain income from his tax return because he's determined that it is non assessable.

Hard to reconcile that with your:

Quote

Section 40:of the Revenue code dictates what is assessable income

 

I think you've lost the bubble. Maybe a good night's sleep might help.

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You mean up to the individual to self assess why he's omitting certain income from his tax return because he's determined that it is non assessable.

 

Section 40 details what is assessable income, not the individual.

 

The individual needs to self assess if he is above or below the filing thresholds

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Exactly

Section 40:of the Revenue code dictates what is assessable income.

Not DTA's or Visa's

DTAs and Visas over-ride whatever might be applicable in Section 40. 

 

But unlike in say Australia (and most of the West) where everyone is required to lodge a tax return, either through an authorised tax agent/accountant or using the online system, in Thailand PITs are lodged when the person or their agent/accountant has calculated that they have income taxes to pay.  Some say you have to lodge when you have over XYZ Baht as taxable income you must lodge a tax return even if you calculate no taxes are due. But I have written advice from a tax lawyer that the current 'lodgement rules' from TRD is that they do not want millions of tax lodgments by people who do not have any income taxes to pay.  Over time Thailand will tighten up their tax rules and enforcement and collections - but not right now. 

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The individual needs to self assess if he is above or below the filing thresholds

If he self-assesses that the remitted income is non assessable -- why in the world would he have to assess if he's above or below the filing thresholds? Get a grip, man.

Just now, JimGant said:

If he self-assesses that the remitted income is non assessable

 

Here is a list of assessable income

 

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/revenue-code-assessable-income-and-income-tax-sections-40-64/

 

Written down in black and white, by the Thai Tax Authority.

11 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

But I have written advice from a tax lawyer that the current 'lodgement rules' from TRD is that they do not want millions of tax lodgments by people who do not have any income taxes to pay. 

 

Sure, I can fully understand that logic, all this foreigner stuff is new to the TRD, it probably scares them, and it increases their workload.

 

11 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Over time Thailand will tighten up their tax rules and enforcement and collections - but not right now. 

 

Yep. And that is when a lot of people are going to meet their WTF moment.

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Here is a list of assessable income

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/revenue-code-assessable-income-and-income-tax-sections-40-64/

Written down in black and white, by the Thai Tax Authority.

Go and have a good sleep - we are not going doing that road that another poster dragged everyone - the one that is no longer here, who was proven wrong many times, and who the current proposal cuts off at the knees. 

 

Quote from the article "The new (proposed rule change) policy encourages Thai nationals to repatriate foreign income for domestic investment. Under these new rules, foreign income earned and remitted within the same or following year will not incur tax. For instance, income from 2025 brought into Thailand in either 2025 or 2026 would not be taxed. Beyond this timeframe, usual tax rules will apply."

 

They have made another mess of things obviously (what about after 2026), but the short and long of the current situation if that rule is implemented, is that it now looks AOK for retired Expats living in Thailand who are remitting money into the country.  If you want to go ahead and calculate your income taxes, then go to the Provincial Office and get a TIN and lodge a tax return - or pay someone else to do that for you - then go right ahead - if you have already done that then I feel for you. 

 

If you dont know what the proposed change means - then you dont know what is going on - so I will tell you this. They screwed up - they recognise this only because 'declared remittances' in the lodged tax returns for 2024 was drastically lower than previous years - overall the remittances into Thailand have also dramatically reduced - they will not apologise - they want money remitted into Thailand ASAP and are willing to let it in tax free - because the economy is tanking.  They are holding up the Baht as much as possible by using their reserves to buy the Baht whenever the value starts to drop - they are desperately trying to hold the Baht at 30-35 USD - otherwise their loan and financial repayments will be too much to cover up - and because those bringing in expensive items like machinery and luxury cars and military equipment etc etc, will have to pay more - and Thais wanting to buy overseas things like property or investments etc etc., will have to pay more.  I hope you now understand a bit of what is going on.