Can long periods of deep meditation cause brain damge?

[rockyysdt]

Hi fellow travelers.

 

I have been on a long path with periods of regular meditation as well as Buddhist retreats where long periods of daily meditation was practiced.

Troubled with finding meaning in life I've leaned to the possibility that following the Buddhist teaching (4 Noble Truths & 10 Fold Path)  may potentially yield answers.

 

Naturally staying on this path is difficult.

I've equated changing ones core habits is akin to escaping the pull of gravity of the event horizon of a black hole.

I've also recognized, if one can practice the Buddhas teachings faithfully, then this breakthrough in daily habit, is the key to changing any habit one may have.

 

I recently came across a lecture in which the speaker was talking about the consumption of certain foods which may lead to dementia.

Other causes also related to possible dementia included the fact that the brain requires stimulation to remain healthy.

As is the case with muscles, starved of stimulation (reduced or no signals), parts of the brain can experience atrophy (shrink in size).

We are often taught to regularly engage in mental stimulation such as crosswords, debating, sport, study, and anything which stimulates the brain.

 

Regarding the practice of the Buddha's teachings, my understanding is that there are two core practices which are performed.

One is Mindfulness, or being continuously aware of your breath, all your thoughts, feelings, sensations and actions, as well as the external around you during your wakeful day.

The other is Sitting Meditation, with mindfulness of breath, thoughts and feelings which can often lead to a conscious state with the absence of thought.

The suspension of thought leads one to experience that which is beyond conditioning.

 

This leads me to the point of my post.

 

Are long periods of sitting without thought akin to the absence of mental stimulation which may lead to brain atrophy, or is that which is eventually experienced mind enhancing and therefore stimulating?

 

 

Edited May 24 by rockyysdt

[Hummin]

50 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi fellow travelers.

 

I have been on a long path with periods of regular meditation as well as Buddhist retreats where long periods of daily meditation was practiced.

Troubled with finding meaning in life I've leaned to the possibility that following the Buddhist teaching (4 Noble Truths & 10 Fold Path)  may potentially yield answers.

 

Naturally staying on this path is difficult.

I've equated changing ones core habits is akin to escaping the pull of gravity of the event horizon of a black hole.

I've also recognized, if one can practice the Buddhas teachings faithfully, then this breakthrough in daily habit, is the key to changing any habit one may have.

 

I recently came across a lecture in which the speaker was talking about the consumption of certain foods which may lead to dementia.

Other causes also related to possible dementia included the fact that the brain requires stimulation to remain healthy.

As is the case with muscles, starved of stimulation (reduced or no signals), parts of the brain can experience atrophy (shrink in size).

We are often taught to regularly engage in mental stimulation such as crosswords, debating, sport, study, and anything which stimulates the brain.

 

Regarding the practice of the Buddha's teachings, my understanding is that there are two core practices which are performed.

One is Mindfulness, or being continuously aware of your breath, all your thoughts, feelings, sensations and actions, as well as the external around you during your wakeful day.

The other is Sitting Meditation, with mindfulness of breath, thoughts and feelings which can often lead to a conscious state with the absence of thought.

The suspension of thought leads one to experience that which is beyond conditioning.

 

This leads me to the point of my post.

 

Are long periods of sitting without thought akin to the absence of mental stimulation which may lead to brain atrophy, or is that which is eventually experienced mind enhancing and therefore stimulating?

 

 

Your brain is active by having no thoughts so no worries! 

 

But, there is also other important stimulus you can add. Learn something new, reading subjects you have interest for, sports, challenge yourself, and most important to feel good is a balanced diet. Being a vegetarian or other extreme diets (keto) can be good for shorter periods, but we all need a balanced diet for optimized function. 

 

Meditaion is an escape and do not cure the root of your problems. However breathing technique is great for mind and body control, and involvess your core muscles, and great for staying healty together with other activities. 

 

Yoga retreats is in my opinon brainwashing schools. Have yet to see any retreats in Thailand who is not there just to make you addicted and milk you for your money

[rockyysdt]

33 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Your brain is active by having no thoughts so no worries! 

 

But, there is also other important stimulus you can add. Learn something new, reading subjects you have interest for, sports, challenge yourself, and most important to feel good is a balanced diet. Being a vegetarian or other extreme diets (keto) can be good for shorter periods, but we all need a balanced diet for optimized function. 

 

Meditaion is an escape and do not cure the root of your problems. However breathing technique is great for mind and body control, and involvess your core muscles, and great for staying healty together with other activities. 

 

Yoga retreats is in my opinon brainwashing schools. Have yet to see any retreats in Thailand who is not there just to make you addicted and milk you for your money

I found Wat Suan Mokkh, a forest retreat near Surat Thani not to be dollar focused.

 

The fee for their monthly 10 day international Meditation Period wouldn't even cover the excellent food made available.

I've been there on 4 retreats. There is no money involved except for covering the food.

After a number of retreat experiences my friend stayed there for 6 months under the guidance of one of the Farang monks.

His stay was for free. The food they ate (once a day) came from alms rounds. He lived in a one person Kuti and gave the lifestyle a go.

His teachings revolved around practice, both Mindfulness & Meditation and keeping the body in a routine to facilitate this.

 

Totally agree with you that a healthy lifestyle including avoidance of intoxicants is a good foundation.

 

But what about that which is Unconditioned?

What about that which the Buddha realized?

The cessation of suffering, the quenching of all bodily desire, and what is this replaced with?

 

Isn't everything else is Ego related?

 

And that which is realized, what effect on the brain does it have?

Edited May 24 by rockyysdt

[Hummin]

7 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

I found Wat Suan Mokkh, a forest retreat near Surat Thani not to be dollar focused.

 

The fee for their monthly 10 day international Meditation Period wouldn't even cover the excellent food made available.

I've been there on 4 retreats. There is no money involved except for covering the food.

After a number of retreat experiences my friend stayed there for 6 months under the guidance of one of the Farang monks.

His stay was for free. The food they ate (once a day) came from alms rounds. He lived in a one person Kuti and gave the lifestyle a go.

His teachings revolved around practice, both Mindfulness & Meditation and keeping the body in a routine to facilitate this.

 

Totally agree with you that a healthy lifestyle including avoidance of intoxicants is a good foundation.

 

But what about that which is Unconditioned?

That which the Buddha realized.

The cessation of suffering, the quenching of all bodily desire!

You have healthy cravings and desire, and a good way to avoid unhealthy habits, is to create new ones. We are just humans, and we are easily distracted and also easily addicted to unhealthy habits. If you feel yoga teaching and retreats make you stronger, good, but if not,and it just give you guilt, find something else. 

 

Common problem religion and other lifestyle belief system creat in humans is guilt! How to free yourself from guilt? Thats the question, and thats not done over the night. 

 

What do you want to achieve? First question you have to ask yourselves, who I am, what do I want? How do I want it, and how to get it

[oldscool]

Interesting question.

 

Suffering and the end of suffering is the core of Buddha's teaching.

 

What is suffering? It's the mental anguish that comes with events. Buddha's meditation process, and it is a process that can be learnt, helps to understand the linkage between the event and the suffering simply by becoming more aware of what's going on inside ourselves, our bodily feelings, emotions, thoughts, and how they trigger each other - "dependent arising". When the linkage is broken that's the end of "suffering". This can be achieved quickly, but maybe it takes a lifetime to become permanent. 

 

Re diet. A balanced diet can easily be based on vegetarianism. The modern western diet has far too much protein. Meat stays in the digestive tract far far longer than vegetables, fruits, grains and pulses, and causes many health problems.

 

Buddhism is not a religion as there is no god in Buddhism. It's just a practice. 

 

As for "realisation" or enlightenment, I'm not sure it's like flicking on a light switch, but more gradual. Some teachers have been described as "fully-realised", but I'm not really sure what that means.

 

As for retreats, I've only been on one, about 15 years ago at a temple in Thailand, flexible stay up to 3 weeks. There were no fees involved.

 

OCD is a form of suffering, and our modern lifestyles are overflowing with obsessive compulsive behaviour. Interactions on forums from entrenched positions by people who have never met in real life are an example of this.

 

That's not to say all forums or forum users are suffering! But there is visible amount of OCD on the few forums I use.

 

I used to belong to a zoom group for meditation, but it lapsed. I'd be interested in joining one if anyone knows of one. Or even starting one?

[rockyysdt]

19 hours ago, Hummin said:

You have healthy cravings and desire, and a good way to avoid unhealthy habits, is to create new ones. We are just humans, and we are easily distracted and also easily addicted to unhealthy habits. If you feel yoga teaching and retreats make you stronger, good, but if not,and it just give you guilt, find something else. 

 

Common problem religion and other lifestyle belief system creat in humans is guilt! How to free yourself from guilt? Thats the question, and thats not done over the night. 

 

What do you want to achieve? First question you have to ask yourselves, who I am, what do I want? How do I want it, and how to get it

I wouldn't say stronger, nor weaker, but perhaps revealing.

 

The problem with using words such as religion & belief is that it categorizes that which we are trying to take in or understand.

 

I think I am trying to verbalize what the Buddha discovered and taught.

 

Was he simply teaching people to differentiate between belief and reality and/or did he offer a path to realizing a deeper reality?

 

If there is a deeper reality aren't we wasting time living our lives stuck in greed, aversion, and delusion.

[FruitPudding]

21 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Other causes also related to possible dementia included the fact that the brain requires stimulation to remain healthy.

 

I thought dementia was a physical disease.

 

 

[rockyysdt]

11 hours ago, oldscool said:

Suffering and the end of suffering is the core of Buddha's teaching.

 

What is suffering? It's the mental anguish that comes with events. Buddha's meditation process, and it is a process that can be learnt, helps to understand the linkage between the event and the suffering simply by becoming more aware of what's going on inside ourselves, our bodily feelings, emotions, thoughts, and how they trigger each other - "dependent arising". When the linkage is broken that's the end of "suffering". This can be achieved quickly, but maybe it takes a lifetime to become permanent. 

 

A balanced diet can easily be based on vegetarianism. The modern western diet has far too much protein. Meat stays in the digestive tract far far longer than vegetables, fruits, grains and pulses, and causes many health problems.

 

Buddhism is not a religion as there is no god in Buddhism. It's just a practice. 

 

As for "realisation" or enlightenment, I'm not sure it's like flicking on a light switch, but more gradual. Some teachers have been described as "fully-realised", but I'm not really sure what that means.

 

 

OCD is a form of suffering, and our modern lifestyles are overflowing with obsessive compulsive behaviour. Interactions on forums from entrenched positions by people who have never met in real life are an example of this.

My understanding is that "awareness" can have many levels.

 

At shallow levels, perhaps we can observe our thoughts and resultant behaviors and learn to control these or have the poise to avoid over reacting or making poor decisions.

Awareness can all levels can have its benefits.

 

But can the depth one is able to experience awareness be infinite and eventually lead to know things beyond our capability to even comprehend in our current state?

Can we eventually gain awareness of that which is permanent & timeless?

 

One attraction to Buddhism over Religion as that the latter offers the promise of benefits after death, but the Buddha offers realization in your life through practice.

Not only in this life, but doesn't spell out what one will find!

 

NB: I was interested to learn what you base the belief that "Meat stays in the digestive tract far far longer than vegetables, fruits, grains and pulses, and causes many health problems"?

 

 

Edited May 25 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

27 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

 

I thought dementia was a physical disease.

 

 

It is physical, but the consensus is that the depth and severity can be attributed to a number of factors, one of which maybe atrophy of the brain.

 

Cause of dementia can include diet, alcohol and drug consumption, lack of brain stimulation, lack of physical activity, aging, environmental toxins in our food and air, and others.

 

One area which has had little attention is that blood cholesterol medication, which is freely handed out, finds its way across the blood brain barrier.

There, in the brain, it goes to work to reduce cholesterol found in the brain.

Cholesterol in the brain is vital for everyday brain function. So much so that our brain contains 10 times more cholesterol compared to any other part of the body, even though it only represents 2% of our body weight.

 

What impact is cholesterol medication having on our brain function?

 

But to get back on topic, does deep meditation result in lower stimulation of the brain due to the suspension of thought and therefore atrophy the brain?

 

Or is awareness resulting from deep meditation profoundly stimulating?

 

Edited May 25 by rockyysdt

[Hummin]

40 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

I wouldn't say stronger, nor weaker, but perhaps revealing.

 

The problem with using words such as religion & belief is that it categorizes that which we are trying to take in or understand.

 

I think I am trying to verbalize what the Buddha discovered and taught.

 

Was he simply teaching people to differentiate between belief and reality and/or did he offer a path to realizing a deeper reality?

 

If there is a deeper reality aren't we wasting time living our lives stuck in greed, aversion, and delusion.

Our reality of living with minimum resources and really fighting for our survival, have created the need to be greedy, have ego, collect, save, build bigger and stronger. Most of us who are looking for our inner self, have a luxury problem, where we do not need to fight anymore.

I think we should allow ourselves to be who we are and think there is nothing wrong with us, and realise our main problem is boredom and too much spare time to think.

Well, that's what I think now, after having spent my time searching for something else in life, both in ego sports, and also the more spiritualistic end of it.

 

Everything have its time, but do not waste your time, spend it wisely, happiness is maybe not what you think it is

[oldscool]

28 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

But to get back on topic, does deep meditation result in lower stimulation of the brain due to the suspension of thought and therefore atrophy the brain?

I have never seen any empirical work to support this view.

 

Re your original comparison with crosswords, study and debate. Each of these requires language, while consciousness is beyond/beside language, it's experiential, so maybe something like chess or go would be better for stimulating the brain without forcing us into narrow linguistic channels and their contingent "dependent arising". My assumption is that meditation would assist these rather compete with them.

 

If a householder engages in lengthy long-term meditation sessions maybe it could lead into all sorts of issues that that wouldn't affect monks, but brain atrophy?

 

I think a lot hinges on the definition of "deep meditation" - how would that be measured? Analayo has the best English language exegesis of the Satipatthana and its path to realisation and describes the various states one may encounter that I have seen.

 

Re meat v fruit and time for digestion, I base this on my own experience and reading, and I've just done a quick search which confirms.

[rockyysdt]

53 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Our reality of living with minimum resources and really fighting for our survival, have created the need to be greedy, have ego, collect, save, build bigger and stronger. Most of us who are looking for our inner self, have a luxury problem, where we do not need to fight anymore.

I think we should allow ourselves to be who we are and think there is nothing wrong with us, and realise our main problem is boredom and too much spare time to think.

Well, that's what I think now, after having spent my time searching for something else in life, both in ego sports, and also the more spiritualistic end of it.

 

Everything have its time, but do not waste your time, spend it wisely, happiness is maybe not what you think it is

The "luxury problem" is very perceptive, but I'm thinking, not entirely unique to our time, as during eras of survival the Monkhood would have been the "luxury".

 

I can see your point about not wasting your time.

Is what the Buddha offers as profound as many believe, or will years of strict practice only come to a waste of time?

 

What brought you to your conclusion?

[rockyysdt]

54 minutes ago, oldscool said:

I have never seen any empirical work to support this view.

 

Re your original comparison with crosswords, study and debate. Each of these requires language, while consciousness is beyond/beside language, it's experiential, so maybe something like chess or go would be better for stimulating the brain without forcing us into narrow linguistic channels and their contingent "dependent arising". My assumption is that meditation would assist these rather compete with them.

 

If a householder engages in lengthy long-term meditation sessions maybe it could lead into all sorts of issues that that wouldn't affect monks, but brain atrophy?

 

I think a lot hinges on the definition of "deep meditation" - how would that be measured? Analayo has the best English language exegesis of the Satipatthana and its path to realisation and describes the various states one may encounter that I have seen.

 

Re meat v fruit and time for digestion, I base this on my own experience and reading, and I've just done a quick search which confirms.

I've only had relatively shallow experiences on retreat, but might measure "deep meditation" on, and not necessarily in this order, length of time where no thought is experienced, periods of consciousness with absence of thought with no perception of time, coming back into consciousness with thought with the feeling that no time had lapsed even though an hour or 2 had passed, the experience of "piti" or deep ecstatic calm (although this is not an aim).

 

I have read of practitioners coming out of meditation with profound insights.

 

I was interested in your sources which confirm your conclusions regarding meat vs fruit/vegetables.

In particular the part where meat stays longer on the digestive tract compared to vegetarian diets.

If I can ask, are you strictly vegetarian?

When you had problems with meat were you strictly eating meat only or was it a general diet involving meat fruit & vegetables?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by rockyysdt

[Sheryl]

23 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Are long periods of sitting without thought akin to the absence of mental stimulation which may lead to brain atrophy, or is that which is eventually experienced mind enhancing and therefore stimulating?

 

 

Almost everyone has thoughts while meditating. Moments of pure observation without thought, while what one attempts to do, is achieved only for brief momrnts in most cases.

 

And when one has such moments, they are times of intense awareness. Hardly analgous to lack of mental stimulation; the mind is very stimulated and aware.

 

 

 

[oldscool]

23 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

absence of thought with no perception of time, coming back into consciousness with thought with the feeling that no time had lapsed even though an hour or 2 had passed

 

I have never experienced this level of absorption myself. May I ask, have you? If so do you believe it has had adverse effects?

 

I have been vegetarian on and off since I was 18. Never really ate red meat in a big way, but fish quite regularly. It was more for ethical reasons than anything else. Any search will come up with lots of references.

 

As an aside, I think one of the most important enablers for meditation is the spine, as it carries the central nervous system to the brain, and therefore some yoga practice helps.

[rockyysdt]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

Almost everyone has thoughts while meditating. Moments of pure observation without thought, while what one attempts to do, is achieved only for brief momrnts in most cases.

 

And when one has such moments, they are times of intense awareness. Hardly analgous to lack of mental stimulation; the mind is very stimulated and aware.

 

 

 

Thanks Sheryl.

 

It's been a number of years since I've practiced.

Fell into the trap of habit and negative self talk.

 

I've  just escaped from employment and am currently on the ground floor.

I'm currently attending to many issues due to the passing of a parent, but aim to get back on the elevator, habits permitting.

 

On an early retreat I struggled to meditate.

I was new at serious (for me) periods of full time practice.

I tried everything during my sits but was stuck in endless thought.

You can't begin to imagine my thoughts which I could not let go.

 

On the 6th or 7th day I decided to give up and concentrated on posture to the exclusion of trying to meditate.

Soon after, without expectation it came.

When I eventually became conscious of thought, I slowly opened my eyes to find the other 80 participants had left.

I had been sitting there alone without any awareness that I was alone.

From when this state came until I became aware of my surroundings I had no recollection of the passage of time nor do I remember experiencing any thoughts as I had previously during my sits.

I estimated I would have been in that state for about 90 minutes but it felt like only a few minutes.

 

The way I felt I cannot describe.

Colors appeared different and surreal as I slowly came back to ones normal state.

As I arose and began slowly to walk towards the dining area to rejoin the others I was experiencing what the Monks had been teaching up everyday.

I was immersed in walking meditation.

When practicing I was going through the motions.

But now, in this state I was connected to the ground, I felt the soft sunlight against my skin, the bush land around me was if everything was one.

I could barely hold back tears as I had realised what walking meditation was.

 

All this is in the past.

My life (habits and circumstance) since swallowed me up.

I'm preparing for another go.

 

If you say that moments of no thought are brief then what I can interpret from this is that there may be thoughts but my concentration dwelt on awareness of presence rather than of thought and so thought melted into the background. I came out of that state once I became aware of thought.

 

One insight I gained from that experience was that "to try to meditate" is doing.

That meditation (I'm describing sitting meditation) is not trying but just being.

 

I'll refer to sources, but I'm sure I've read a number of Monks experiences in which states absence of thought are described.

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

37 minutes ago, oldscool said:

 

I have never experienced this level of absorption myself. May I ask, have you? If so do you believe it has had adverse effects?

 

I have been vegetarian on and off since I was 18. Never really ate red meat in a big way, but fish quite regularly. It was more for ethical reasons than anything else. Any search will come up with lots of references.

 

As an aside, I think one of the most important enablers for meditation is the spine, as it carries the central nervous system to the brain, and therefore some yoga practice helps.

Seafood is very good.

I'm told to choose smaller species low in the food chain.

Long lived predatory fish high up in the food chain are said to be subject to accumulating heavy metals such as mercury.

 

I wrote a reply to Sheryl's post which describes one of my experiences.

 

Don't know what to think other than to go back to regular core practice.

Thanks for the tip. Yoga classes are on the short list 🙂

[VincentRJ]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:11 PM, rockyysdt said:

Hi fellow travelers.

 

I have been on a long path with periods of regular meditation as well as Buddhist retreats where long periods of daily meditation was practiced.

Troubled with finding meaning in life I've leaned to the possibility that following the Buddhist teaching (4 Noble Truths & 10 Fold Path)  may potentially yield answers.

 

Naturally staying on this path is difficult.

I've equated changing ones core habits is akin to escaping the pull of gravity of the event horizon of a black hole.

I've also recognized, if one can practice the Buddhas teachings faithfully, then this breakthrough in daily habit, is the key to changing any habit one may have.

 

I recently came across a lecture in which the speaker was talking about the consumption of certain foods which may lead to dementia.

Other causes also related to possible dementia included the fact that the brain requires stimulation to remain healthy.

As is the case with muscles, starved of stimulation (reduced or no signals), parts of the brain can experience atrophy (shrink in size).

We are often taught to regularly engage in mental stimulation such as crosswords, debating, sport, study, and anything which stimulates the brain.

 

Regarding the practice of the Buddha's teachings, my understanding is that there are two core practices which are performed.

One is Mindfulness, or being continuously aware of your breath, all your thoughts, feelings, sensations and actions, as well as the external around you during your wakeful day.

The other is Sitting Meditation, with mindfulness of breath, thoughts and feelings which can often lead to a conscious state with the absence of thought.

The suspension of thought leads one to experience that which is beyond conditioning.

 

This leads me to the point of my post.

 

Are long periods of sitting without thought akin to the absence of mental stimulation which may lead to brain atrophy, or is that which is eventually experienced mind enhancing and therefore stimulating?

 

 

 

Hi Rocky,
It's been a long time since there was any serious discussion on this forum. You pose some interesting questions. 

 

My interest in Buddhism tends to be mainly focused on the health benefits. Whilst I'm not particularly attracted towards sitting for long periods doing nothing, I do try to be very mindful, and avoid any stress and anxiety.

 

I believe that a healthy diet and regular exercise will reduce the risk of dementia, but also certain practices of Buddhism and Yoga such as slow, deep breathing, where one slowly fills one's lungs with clean air whilst concentrating on one's breath, will also reduce the risk of dementia, according to a number of scientific studies.

 

Here are just a couple of articles addressing the issue.

 

"This study revealed that applying DSB (deep and slow breathing) can enhance the ability of elderly individuals to process new cognitive tasks and improve cognitive function. These findings suggest that deep and slow breathing training could serve as a simple yet effective method for developing cognitive training programs to prevent and manage dementia in older adults within the community." 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10047962/#:~:text=These findings suggest that deep,older adults within the community

 

"Controlled breathing can cause physiological changes that include:
. lowered blood pressure and heart rate
. reduced levels of stress hormones in the blood
. reduced lactic acid build-up in muscle tissue
. balanced levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the blood
. improved immune system functioning
. increased physical energy
. increased feelings of calm and wellbeing."

 

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/breathing-to-reduce-stress

[oldscool]

Thanks for the description of your absorption, very interesting. My practice usually involves attending to sensory perception (externals) as well as internals, so I have never experienced anything like that.

 

Also my practice is usually twice a day for a total of not more than 1 1/2 hours, and that may include yoga postures to begin with.

 

The Buddhist  literature distinguishes 2 types of practitioners - householders and monks, though of course mindfulness can be applied throughout the day by anyone. The long periods of deep meditation you refer to in your OP I've always associated with monks practicing in a supported situation - ie a sangha and a temple, rather than what a householder might be able to fit into their day. 

 

Good thread, an interesting discussion.

 

 

[oldscool]

Another aspect of mental health and meditation.

 

I was reading a while back about someone attending a retreat who went into a "full on kundalini" experience without warning - this must have been quite a shock. He had been dong a lot of "3rd eye" meditation prior to the retreat. A well-known yogi describes an unprepared kundalini experience as "a leap into the abyss" or something like that, and I guess conventional western psychology would describe it as a psychosis of some sort.

 

Also I think if someone's suffering from depression, long periods of meditation could be counter-productive, but not necessarily.

 

But I've never heard of anyone developing mental issues from the sort of Buddhist vipassana meditation taught in retreats in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

[rockyysdt]

3 hours ago, oldscool said:

Thanks for the description of your absorption, very interesting. My practice usually involves attending to sensory perception (externals) as well as internals, so I have never experienced anything like that.

 

Also my practice is usually twice a day for a total of not more than 1 1/2 hours, and that may include yoga postures to begin with.

 

The Buddhist  literature distinguishes 2 types of practitioners - householders and monks, though of course mindfulness can be applied throughout the day by anyone. The long periods of deep meditation you refer to in your OP I've always associated with monks practicing in a supported situation - ie a sangha and a temple, rather than what a householder might be able to fit into their day. 

 

Good thread, an interesting discussion.

 

 

Thanks O S

 

I tip my hat to you.  👍

Your regular and diverse practice is essential, not only for a better life, but also a bedrock for possible further practice, if you choose to and have the resource.

 

I went full on and then crashed into former habits.

 

I'll be starting over with a similar pattern to you and hopefully progress to retreats.

Two aims, live a better life, and maybe (big maybe) awaken.

 

Posting here helps me stimulate the mind, meet others on similar paths (an unofficial sangha), and encourage others. 

[rockyysdt]

3 hours ago, oldscool said:

Another aspect of mental health and meditation.

 

I was reading a while back about someone attending a retreat who went into a "full on kundalini" experience without warning - this must have been quite a shock. He had been dong a lot of "3rd eye" meditation prior to the retreat. A well-known yogi describes an unprepared kundalini experience as "a leap into the abyss" or something like that, and I guess conventional western psychology would describe it as a psychosis of some sort.

 

Also I think if someone's suffering from depression, long periods of meditation could be counter-productive, but not necessarily.

 

But I've never heard of anyone developing mental issues from the sort of Buddhist vipassana meditation taught in retreats in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

If we are lucky in our lives to be free of mental & physical issues practice is open to us.

From what I've been learning of recent times, is that most peoples western diet (driven by multi national food companies whose sole purpose is to maximise profits and maintain market share) consumed over long periods, can precipitate mental illness as well as many of our physical ailments. When you consider our brain is just another organ, if your diet is poor and ultra processed the physical nature of the brain and its ability to work correctly must be affected and in different ways for each of us.

 

I don't have the references at the moment but a group of mathematicians and physicists who were modelling our universe by dividing time and distance are concluding that we live in a sub set.

Combine that with infinity and you're staring at the possibility of something beyond anything we can ever imagine or conceptualize.

 

Some call it religion, but this restricts what we are looking at.

 

Did the Buddha experience that which is beyond?

 

Could it be that which never had a beginning, nor will it ever have an end?

 

I think he did say "that which was never born can never die".

[oldscool]

My practice is far from perfect, it's come and gone over the years like vegetarianism.

 

For some time Analayo's book "Satipatthana "(he's a German monk who did a doctorate I think in early Buddhism) on Buddha's Satipatthana method/sutra was my go to. Satipatthana is the source of the Vipassana approach that's practiced in Thailand, or one of them. But when I read that becoming an awakened "stream entrant" is followed by 7 more re-incarnations before escaping the wheel of incarnation I felt it was getting a bit too much: the legacy of  Hinduism in Buddhism makes things much too complicated for me.

 

So I switched to Ian Gawlor's book "Meditation", he's an Australian that used meditation to overcome cancer. His approach is actually very similar to Vipassana, without the Hindu mysticism. 

 

I've read quite a bit of other stuff too, but those 2, plus the retreat in Chiang Mai formed my practice. I even visited an awakened Thai monk in Isan, who had led a meditation practice in California for a long time, and a temple in Pattaya where an American resided and apparently became awakened. I've still got his book somewhere.

 

[rockyysdt]

12 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Hi Rocky,
It's been a long time since there was any serious discussion on this forum. You pose some interesting questions. 

 

My interest in Buddhism tends to be mainly focused on the health benefits. Whilst I'm not particularly attracted towards sitting for long periods doing nothing, I do try to be very mindful, and avoid any stress and anxiety.

 

I believe that a healthy diet and regular exercise will reduce the risk of dementia, but also certain practices of Buddhism and Yoga such as slow, deep breathing, where one slowly fills one's lungs with clean air whilst concentrating on one's breath, will also reduce the risk of dementia, according to a number of scientific studies.

 

Here are just a couple of articles addressing the issue.

 

"This study revealed that applying DSB (deep and slow breathing) can enhance the ability of elderly individuals to process new cognitive tasks and improve cognitive function. These findings suggest that deep and slow breathing training could serve as a simple yet effective method for developing cognitive training programs to prevent and manage dementia in older adults within the community." 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10047962/#:~:text=These findings suggest that deep,older adults within the community

 

"Controlled breathing can cause physiological changes that include:
. lowered blood pressure and heart rate
. reduced levels of stress hormones in the blood
. reduced lactic acid build-up in muscle tissue
. balanced levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the blood
. improved immune system functioning
. increased physical energy
. increased feelings of calm and wellbeing."

 

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/breathing-to-reduce-stress

Hi Vincent.

 

It's great to re link again.

I admire your healthy lifestyle and attitudes towards life and diet.

 

Yes, breathing is a key and also serves as a focal point for meditating.

 

It goes:

 

During meditation, if you find you are having many thoughts, observe your body.

Turn your awareness to any tension you might find in any part of you body.

Clench or tighten the tense muscles and relax the muscles involved.

Then gently scan your entire body ensuring all tension has eased.

 

Then turn your attention to your breath.

Short or no breath - tension.

Deeper relaxed rhythmical breath - relaxed body

If you find your breath is short or stopped then gently increase your breathing.

It should not be stopped or too fast, but rather begin to establish an even relaxed and comfortable breath.

 

Also wholemeal rice is very good.

Low GI reduces blood sugar spikes.

Consuming diverse rice species is also good.

 

 

 

[oldscool]

20 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Did the Buddha experience that which is beyond?

 

I think you experienced something of what's beyond in your absorption described above. And I'm certain Gautama did too.

 

Have you heard of Sadhguru? He is an Indian mystic yogi who leads the Isha foundation with centres in India, Singapore, USA and elsewhere (not Thailand) with a huge following, youtube channel, app with all sorts of stuff. He's nearly 70 I think, and started out with an experience like yours that lasted a week or more.

 

He talks about many of the points raised in this thread and much more on his youtube channel, well worth a visit. Seems like the real deal to me.

 

In fact his Isha foundation is offering a free Mental Health Awareness Month Special now, free on his Isha app.

 

[rockyysdt]

7 minutes ago, oldscool said:

My practice is far from perfect, it's come and gone over the years like vegetarianism.

 

For some time Analayo's book "Satipatthana "(he's a German monk who did a doctorate I think in early Buddhism) on Buddha's Satipatthana method/sutra was my go to. Satipatthana is the source of the Vipassana approach that's practiced in Thailand, or one of them. But when I read that becoming an awakened "stream entrant" is followed by 7 more re-incarnations before escaping the wheel of incarnation I felt it was getting a bit too much: the legacy of  Hinduism in Buddhism makes things much too complicated for me.

 

So I switched to Ian Gawlor's book "Meditation", he's an Australian that used meditation to overcome cancer. His approach is actually very similar to Vipassana, without the Hindu mysticism. 

 

I've read quite a bit of other stuff too, but those 2, plus the retreat in Chiang Mai formed my practice. I even visited an awakened Thai monk in Isan, who had led a meditation practice in California for a long time, and a temple in Pattaya where an American resided and apparently became awakened. I've still got his book somewhere.

 

Ian Gawlers works were also in my library.

 

Maybe it was a mistake to take in the words of Analayo's book?

I would say they are only words and involved his path.

Maybe there are many paths.

Who knows, maybe you've already achieved six of those re incarnations already.

Maybe your on your last but you are not aware of it..

 

Yes, there are far too many diversions in our modern life making it extremely difficult to stick to a path.

 

Although it's not the aim, and can become a strong obstacle, the reward of "Piti" can spur you on until your awareness/experience gets you to a point where practice becomes self sustaining.

 

Wiki:  

Piti is a joyful saṅkhāra (formation) associated with no object, so the practitioner is not attaining it by desire.

It is often translated into the English word "rapture" and is distinguished from the longer-lasting meditative "joy" or "happiness" (Pali, Sanskrit: sukha) which is a subtler feeling which arises alongside pīti.

 

[oldscool]

Analayo's words are Buddha's, not his own, a description of Buddha's path not Analayo's.

 

Gautama Buddha was born into a world of Hinduism and many other Indian religions and practices. So much cultural background that we can never really understand 2500+ years later, but like I said above Sadhguru, an Indian yogi, does address many of those points clearly in English in his many videos.

[Hummin]

20 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

The "luxury problem" is very perceptive, but I'm thinking, not entirely unique to our time, as during eras of survival the Monkhood would have been the "luxury".

 

I can see your point about not wasting your time.

Is what the Buddha offers as profound as many believe, or will years of strict practice only come to a waste of time?

 

What brought you to your conclusion?

 

I was forced to change my life, and I choosed to work and be diciplined and not escape the reality by trying to find the easiest way to live. 

 

Dicipline (get up in the morning)

Diet

Stay away from triggers,  toxins and negativity (negativity transformed to positivity by exercises)

Exersice mind and body

 

Simple things that works basically

 

Live is like surfing, you go with the wave, not fighting. If a bad wave, be patient, there will be a new one

[rockyysdt]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

 

I was forced to change my life, and I choosed to work and be diciplined and not escape the reality by trying to find the easiest way to live. 

 

Dicipline (get up in the morning)

Diet

Stay away from triggers,  toxins and negativity (negativity transformed to positivity by exercises)

Exersice mind and body

 

Simple things that works basically

 

Live is like surfing, you go with the wave, not fighting. If a bad wave, be patient, there will be a new one

I like your philosophy.  👍

 

Starting with my retirement I've been planning to adopt what you do. 

 

Just hope my habits don't get in the way.  🙂

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

I like your philosophy.  👍

 

Starting with my retirement I've been planning to adopt what you do. 

 

Just hope my habits don't get in the way.  🙂

Just dont let your ego trouble you with diving deep,and deeper in to philsophy, religion or life teachings, just for the feeling of understanding. 

 

Life is what it is, and you cant really fight it by understanding the "true meaning of life"

 

For bad habits, quit one add a new one 😉 Just make sure the new habit is better than the one you replaced