British Pensioner Struggles with Frozen Pension in Thailand

[brianthainess]

What also seems to not reported in these discussions on frozen pensions, is if a pensioner is not in the UK then they are costing the country less, No health care, no subsidized housing, no disability allowance, no free or cheaper transport, and more. 

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, animalmagic said:

True, but please explain why a pensioner living in the Philippines gets the uprating but one in Thailand does not?  Neither pays any taxes in UK as you list above.

My guess is, there are a lot of Filipinas and Filipinos working in the health industry in the UK, probably more than from any other country. I figure the Philippines government said, right, in exchange for our people keeping your national health system running, when they retire and possibly return to Philippines, we would like their UK pensions to update every year.

 

Somebody in HM government was presumably more than slightly appalled at the thought of the possible consequences of a massive withdrawal of labour if the Filipino workers had gone elsewhere. Well bargained for by the Philippines government! And it's there for all to benefit from. We have the Philippines government, the nurses, doctors and carers from the Phillipines, to thank for that on all fronts! Now where are you looking, anti migranteers? Also, many Muslim migrants contribute massively in less well off areas, in running education and support systems for ALL migrants and everybody in the local community (my Thai ex wife when learning English included).

Edited June 2 by bradiston

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Maybe America should be sending foreign aid money to the UK. I would feel much better about it than sending cash to Islamic backwaters and other tenuous allies.

 

The US does send a little bit for some top activities.

 

https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/united kingdom/

[freeworld]

11 minutes ago, bradiston said:

My guess is, there are a lot of Filipinas and Filipinos working in the health industry in the UK, probably more than from any other country. I figure the Philippines government said, right, in exchange for our people keeping your national health system running, when they retire and possibly return to Philippines, we would like their UK pensions to update every year.

 

Somebody in HM government was presumably more than slightly appalled at the thought of the possible consequences of a massive withdrawal of labour if the Filipino workers had gone elsewhere. Well bargained for by the Philippines government! And it's there for all to benefit from. We have the Philippines government, the nurses, doctors and carers from the Phillipines, to thank for that on all fronts! Now where are you looking, anti migranteers? Also, many Muslim migrants contribute massively in less well off areas, in running education and support systems for ALL migrants and everybody in the local community (my Thai ex wife when learning English included).

Remember seeing a lot of Filipinos in the early 90's in Westminster area around the Westminster Cathedral, assumed a lot of them were working in healthcare and aged care in that area.

[NoshowJones]

22 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No UK government wants that reciprocal arrangement, regardless of how easy it may be to implement!

Every UK PM in the last 70 years who is still alive should be arrested and charged with theft.

[billd766]

9 hours ago, bradiston said:

Hey, I'm not getting into the debate about the rights and wrongs. This topic comes up year in, year out. There's a variety of solutions. I was merely pointing out that there is a "new" state pension which is worth more than the old one. Nothing to do with frozen or unfrozen.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-and-pension-rates-2024-to-2025/benefit-and-pension-rates-2024-to-2025

 

Look under State Pension. That's all.

Thank you from everybody who needs the link so that they can compare the two.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, NoshowJones said:

22 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No UK government wants that reciprocal arrangement, regardless of how easy it may be to implement!

Every UK PM in the last 70 years who is still alive should be arrested and charged with theft.

Why?

[hardblogger]

7 hours ago, bradiston said:

I guess you'd need to be UK resident for at least 180 days a year. So it might work if you did 6 months there and 6 months elsewhere. But I'm no expert.

 

Yes that is correct, 180 days and you would continue to get the full pension. If this lady went back to UK, she could apply straight away to get the full amount. This would be backdated to the date she returned. 

[NoshowJones]

11 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Why?

Why?? Because it is theft, that's why. To my Knowledge there is no UK PM who has made any comment on this, and don't tell me they don't know about it.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, BobBKK said:

We all know how unfair the system is, but Thailand does not have a treaty with the UK like the Philippines. If she returns to the UK, her pension will be updated to the current level, which begs the question: If she left again in six months, would she keep the new rate here?

I doubt it. If she left again she would be better keeping quiet about it.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, BritScot said:

The reason is very simple: Tony Blair and Gordon Brown stole the British State Pension Fund as well as selling off most of the country's Gold. They also closed all the military hospitals (they would have been very handy during times of pandemics) with promises that veterans would be top priority but with a sneaky clause "upto doctors discretion". State Pensions are now generated by those working. So all our contributions are gone and all those still Working, their contributions are stolen to pay the current pensioners.

"Tony Blair and Gordon Brown stole the British State Pension Fund", and they are not even "Sirs".

I hope all these people of the working class think about this when they are voting for this "Tory" multimillionaire.

[hardblogger]

A few bits I would like to add, having just gone through the process of getting retirement pension from UK age 66 living in Thailand. No question of going back. I served 35 years in the RAF so do have a 2nd pension, the fact that my oap will be frozen doesn't really worry me financially but morally it is completely wrong. So my service pension indexed linked is taxed. But OAP no longer has increases but is not taxed. I have it paid direct into my Thai bank and it is actually paid from USA (outsourced for us overseas people) so it never actually hits UK. So two different uk governement pensions that work in completely different ways. 

So I pay tax into UK, but never use, Schools, Hospitals, Police, Fire, Social Services or sit in a park! and never will. I have paid 35 years of National Insurance. But no increase. OK So I knew the rules, yes I did, 

which I hear many times, yes we know that, but that doesn't make it fair does it. But why is this happening? 

 

Outside of EU countries, you can get the increase if you live in Barbados Bermuda, Bosnia, Gibraltar, Guersey, Isle of Man, Israel, Jamacia, Jersey, Kosovo, Mauritus, Mongenegro, Macedonia, Phillipines, Serbia, Turkey and USA. They have a SOCIAL SECURITY AGREEMENT with UK. Now the question might be, why hasn't Thailand? I don't know the answer, but it is a fair question I think. Why hasn't Vietnam or Cambodia (for instance) is it the same reason, or different reason. Just throwing the question out there. There must be a reason why no agreement is in place. Is it actually all UK's fault? Obviously they get the blame. Is that fair blame. Could be. Anyone know. 

 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

8 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

24 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Why?

Why?? Because it is theft, that's why. To my Knowledge there is no UK PM who has made any comment on this, and don't tell me they don't know about it.

No, it's not "theft" and Boris did.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

In which case one must carefully consider whether they should leave the UK.  I have heard many foreigners say they have no health insurance, but  would return to their home country if they needed healthcare.  In many cases  that is not possible, when they are suddenly struck down with a health problem.

There are times in life when you have to take chances. You cannot live all your life being mollycoddled.

[Liverpool Lou]

.

Edited June 2 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

22 hours ago, BritScot said:

State Pensions are now generated by those working. So all our contributions are gone and all those still Working, their contributions are stolen to pay the current pensioners.

"State Pensions are now generated by those working".

That is nothing new, it has always been the case, your NICs are not "yours" in an individual fund.

[NoshowJones]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not "theft" and Boris did.

I am not getting involved in a debate with someone who makes it obviously that they think it is OK for the UK government to cheat OAP's of their annual pension increases. Now run along.

[Liverpool Lou]

28 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

22 hours ago, BobBKK said:

We all know how unfair the system is, but Thailand does not have a treaty with the UK like the Philippines. If she returns to the UK, her pension will be updated to the current level, which begs the question: If she left again in six months, would she keep the new rate here?

I doubt it. If she left again she would be better keeping quiet about it.

She would continue to be paid at the same level as when she left. 

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

My guess is, there are a lot of Filipinas and Filipinos working in the health industry in the UK, probably more than from any other country. I figure the Philippines government said, right, in exchange for our people keeping your national health system running, when they retire and possibly return to Philippines, we would like their UK pensions to update every year.

 

Somebody in HM government was presumably more than slightly appalled at the thought of the possible consequences of a massive withdrawal of labour if the Filipino workers had gone elsewhere. Well bargained for by the Philippines government! And it's there for all to benefit from. We have the Philippines government, the nurses, doctors and carers from the Phillipines, to thank for that on all fronts! Now where are you looking, anti migranteers? Also, many Muslim migrants contribute massively in less well off areas, in running education and support systems for ALL migrants and everybody in the local community (my Thai ex wife when learning English included).

Commenting on my own comment, as I've realised there are a lot of reciprocating countries apart from Philippines. They're listed here as I noted before:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

 

But looking at them it's hard to see a pattern. The old Yugoslavian states I guess inherited an agreement the UK had with Tito's government for hospital and medical care. I know that as I went there in 1966.

 

Possible alternatives to Thailand where you'll get the annual updates might be Turkey, Barbados and Jamaica. Phew, thinking about it, why am I still here? Cost of Caribbean living, anyone? Turkey's surely a prime candidate. And its NATO! 🤣🤣🤣 Presumably reason for NOT going for the anti West diehards. Oh no, not NATO! US 6th fleet aircraft carriers in the Dardanelles, going to liberate Crimea. Gotta see!

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, NoshowJones said:

8 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not "theft" and Boris did.

I am not getting involved in a debate with someone who makes it obviously that they think it is OK for the UK government to cheat OAP's of their annual pension increases. 

As someone affected by frozen pensions, I have never advocated for the policy.

[hardblogger]

24 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Commenting on my own comment, as I've realised there are a lot of reciprocating countries apart from Philippines. They're listed here as I noted before:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

 

But looking at them it's hard to see a pattern. The old Yugoslavian states I guess inherited an agreement the UK had with Tito's government for hospital and medical care. I know that as I went there in 1966.

 

Possible alternatives to Thailand where you'll get the annual updates might be Turkey, Barbados and Jamaica. Phew, thinking about it, why am I still here? Cost of Caribbean living, anyone? Turkey's surely a prime candidate. And its NATO! 🤣🤣🤣 Presumably reason for NOT going for the anti West diehards. Oh no, not NATO! US 6th fleet aircraft carriers in the Dardanelles, going to liberate Crimea. Gotta see!

 

[bradiston]

39 minutes ago, hardblogger said:

A few bits I would like to add, having just gone through the process of getting retirement pension from UK age 66 living in Thailand. No question of going back. I served 35 years in the RAF so do have a 2nd pension, the fact that my oap will be frozen doesn't really worry me financially but morally it is completely wrong. So my service pension indexed linked is taxed. But OAP no longer has increases but is not taxed. I have it paid direct into my Thai bank and it is actually paid from USA (outsourced for us overseas people) so it never actually hits UK. So two different uk governement pensions that work in completely different ways. 

So I pay tax into UK, but never use, Schools, Hospitals, Police, Fire, Social Services or sit in a park! and never will. I have paid 35 years of National Insurance. But no increase. OK So I knew the rules, yes I did, 

which I hear many times, yes we know that, but that doesn't make it fair does it. But why is this happening? 

 

Outside of EU countries, you can get the increase if you live in Barbados Bermuda, Bosnia, Gibraltar, Guersey, Isle of Man, Israel, Jamacia, Jersey, Kosovo, Mauritus, Mongenegro, Macedonia, Phillipines, Serbia, Turkey and USA. They have a SOCIAL SECURITY AGREEMENT with UK. Now the question might be, why hasn't Thailand? I don't know the answer, but it is a fair question I think. Why hasn't Vietnam or Cambodia (for instance) is it the same reason, or different reason. Just throwing the question out there. There must be a reason why no agreement is in place. Is it actually all UK's fault? Obviously they get the blame. Is that fair blame. Could be. Anyone know. 

 

 

 

I don't see why Thailand would have one, but there again I don't see why some that do, do, if you get my meaning. I don't think there's a large contingent of long stay Thai workers in the UK who will be repatriating at any time in the near future. Whereas people with Caribbean origins obviously do have a major presence (major as in a large minority), and have worked for many decades in the UK, contributing significantly to the UK economy, diversity and creativity. Israel is presumably on the list as so many Jews emigrated to Israel from UK after the war, as they did worldwide. Those countries with social security agreements, but not benefits agreements, eg Chile and Japan and South Korea, don't have a pensions agreement, as pensions are classified as benefits, not social security.

 

Bit of a mystery why US and Canada are on the list, and why Oz isn't. That's a bit of a shocker as many have emigrated to Oz over the years, and vice versa, and the UK and Oz have deep ties.

 

Bottom line is, a very quick fix for Thai expats is to register an address in Philippines. I'm not advising fraud. I'm just saying if it's an emergency... It's perfectly legal as long as you're there for 180 days (I think). The DWP in my experience were very helpful, no grilling, just an address, a phone number and a chat about the weather. I do own a property there but didn't initially use that as an address. I did receive a tax certificate from HMRC at my registered address there, so the databases are shared and do get updated. I really don't believe they have the means or the resources or even the will to track your country of residence, but always bear in mind they might one day have all 3. Keep your bases covered people, and your powder dry.

 

BTW There is a catch, which is, you won't get the upgrade until the next upgrade time, next May. I think!

Edited June 2 by bradiston

[hardblogger]

11 minutes ago, bradiston said:

 

 

Bottom line is, a very quick fix for Thai expats is to register an address in Philippines. I'm not advising fraud. I'm just saying if it's an emergency... It's perfectly legal as long as you're there for 180 days (I think). The DWP in my experience were very helpful, no grilling, just an address, a phone number and a chat about the weather. I do own a property there but didn't initially use that as an address. I did receive a tax certificate from HMRC at my registered address there, so the databases are shared and do get updated. I really don't believe they have the means or the resources or even the will to track your country of residence, but always bear in mind they might one day have all 3. Keep your bases covered people, and your powder dry.

 

BTW There is a catch, which is, you won't get the upgrade until the next upgrade time, next May. I think!

 

Wrong, you are advising fraud. I don't want to register anywhere illegally, I am not that bothered, I get 135,000 baht pension a month. Why would I put that at risk?  The OAP by the way is 35,000 baht.
military 100,000 

 

They do have the resources, slow, but they are there, they know we are out of the country, we get paid from a differerent source. Its not a case of having all 3, its not a seperate pension, it is an annual increase. its  

 

Why is that a catch, we have just had the annual April rise. (If you register that you are back in UK, it is backdated to the day you arrive, so you would get it, but it also goes back to the level it is now, when you return. So a lot of work if you are only going back for a year or two. But if it were a lot of money the lady in the article, worth it.  

[freeworld]

For info

 

House of Commons briefing paper 2021 on Frozen overseas pensions.

 

 

SN01457.pdf

[agogohome]

On 6/1/2024 at 2:06 PM, Muhendis said:

A point worth noting is that if and when Mrs. Fox returns to the UK, all her pension shortfall over the years is paid back to her and her pension will be brought up to the current level.

Duh, the government do Not pay back the shortfall for previous years... And they won't consider an update until after 3 months of residency in the UK. Don't post misinformation!

[hardblogger]

32 minutes ago, freeworld said:

For info

 

House of Commons briefing paper 2021 on Frozen overseas pensions.

 

 

SN01457.pdf 1.21 MB · 1 download

Cheers, Its a good history of what has happened, and giving some reasons. Still wrong though. Not a cat in hells chance of this being reversed now. I would have said Humans rights and all that would be best angle, but seeing that got firmly rejected in 2002, then its head against brick wall time. But it won't go away. 

[hardblogger]

3 minutes ago, agogohome said:

Duh, the government do Not pay back the shortfall for previous years... And they won't consider an update until after 3 months of residency in the UK. Don't post misinformation!

 

Yes correct, once you get back, and all the paperwork is done and they are happy (suspect that will be at least 4 to 5 months) then they will pay out, and pay you back to the

date you arrived back in UK. Thats it. Shortfall, no chance. 

[brianthainess]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"State Pensions are now generated by those working".

That is nothing new, it has always been the case, your NICs are not "yours" in an individual fund.

Actually if you are signing on the dole, i.e. NOT Working  your NI contributions are still paid. 

[brianthainess]

16 minutes ago, agogohome said:

Duh, the government do Not pay back the shortfall for previous years... And they won't consider an update until after 3 months of residency in the UK. Don't post misinformation!

But you will get 3 months back pay as I understand it from the day you apply.

[Stanton681]

2 hours ago, bradiston said:

I really don't believe they have the means or the resources or even the will to track your country of residence, but always bear in mind they might one day have all 3. Keep your bases covered people, and your powder dry.

If the Tories are re-elected they plan to introduce The Fraud Bill and part of that is to act on what you’re talking about.