Popular Post Bkk Brian Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 Just now, BobBKK said: I hate all wars. The point is the one time Russia did what USA is doing here was Cuba - and America freaked out. Now Russia freaks out because their neighbour is the same vassal as Cuba to Russia was, and the West screams a hissy fit without seeing the apparent hypocrisy. You may hate all wars but you like to talk about US ones and deliberately ignore those started by Russia 1 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 4 minutes ago, Will B Good said: ? China is a sovereign state - Taiwan is not. This is the core of your argument - can't you see the double talk? 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: You may hate all wars but you like to talk about US ones and deliberately ignore those started by Russia You quote a Ukrainian propaganda site called "Russia's crimes"? LOL dude you really need to research more 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, BobBKK said: You quote a Ukrainian propaganda site called "Russia's crimes"? LOL dude you really need to research more Are you denying the wars happened? Do you want me to go through each one for you? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will B Good Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 4 minutes ago, BobBKK said: China is a sovereign state - Taiwan is not. This is the core of your argument - can't you see the double talk? No. The core of my argument is that NATO tries to preserve peace and nations join it on a voluntary basis. Ukraine, to the best of my knowledge, has not volunteered to become part of Putin's Russia. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Are you denying the wars happened? Do you want me to go through each one for you? Deflection and off-topic and those minor wars were insignificant compared to the USA. OFF TOPIC my thread is about NATOs expansion east and the broken promise. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MangoKorat Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 3 minutes ago, Will B Good said: Load of rubbish talked here... NATO a defence organisation to try and ensure peace Putin an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation Coudn't agree more. All this talk of 'provoking' Putin fails to appreciate that Ukraine is a sovereign country and has every right to decide on its alliances. As you say. NATO is a defensive organisation - it has never threatened offensive action on anyone. Putin is an imperialist and uses the 'threat' of NATO to justify his actions and gain support from the Russian people. Where its possible, he either wants to control neighbouring countries through 'puppets' as with Belarus or invade them as he has done in Ukraine and tried in Georgia. Putin's past and sometimes present statements (when he slips up) make it clear that he sees Ukraine as part of Russia. Its clear from some of the posts here that some people have no knowledge of Ukraine's recent history. I'm not refering to what has gone on over the centuries, maps and alliances have changed all over the world for centuries and there have been 2 world wars. The more recent period, since the break up of the Soviet Union is the only relevant time in the current context. The Ukranian people made it clear where they wanted their future to lie through the Maidan Uprising in 2013-2014 and they had every right to do so. People here should perhaps read through the details of that uprising, why it came about and what the people were seeking. NATO and the EU are not and never will be a 'threat' to Russia, they are only a threat to Putin's ambitions. Putin just doesn't want a disobedient true democracy on his border - his own people might get similar ideas. All his claims that his invasion of Ukraine were a response to NATO expansion are complete claptrap. The response to his invasion by Sweden and Finland was entirely predictable and its almost certain that his advisers will have made that clear. He has actually created NATO expansion, not stopped it. 1 1 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 6 minutes ago, Will B Good said: No. The core of my argument is that NATO tries to preserve peace and nations join it on a voluntary basis. Ukraine, to the best of my knowledge, has not volunteered to become part of Putin's Russia. "Putin is an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation" That was you, was it not? You seem to like highlighting the sovereign nation part when it suits you but not when it is about the NON-sovereign nation Taiwan. Why's that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, BobBKK said: Deflection and off-topic and those minor wars were insignificant compared to the USA. OFF TOPIC my thread is about NATOs expansion east and the broken promise. Whats off topic? You were very happy to highlight wars involving the US and ignore Russia's. You started it...lol Here's a few more and your remark that they were insignificant compared to the US is nonsense. Russian Federation (1991–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will B Good Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 3 minutes ago, BobBKK said: "Putin is an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation" That was you, was it not? You seem to like highlighting the sovereign nation part when it suits you but not when it is about the NON-sovereign nation Taiwan. Why's that? What on Earth are you talking about? What the hell has China and Taiwan got to do with anything??????? 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will B Good Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 7 minutes ago, BobBKK said: Deflection and off-topic..... That made me laugh.....China and Taiwan....555 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 5 minutes ago, Will B Good said: What on Earth are you talking about? What the hell has China and Taiwan got to do with anything??????? If you cannot understand the example of a 'sovereign nation' and its context, then you are not used to debates, and I am wasting my time. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 5 minutes ago, Will B Good said: That made me laugh.....China and Taiwan....555 I see it went waaaaaaaay over your head. Have a nice day. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post transam Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 8 minutes ago, BobBKK said: "Putin is an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation" That was you, was it not? You seem to like highlighting the sovereign nation part when it suits you but not when it is about the NON-sovereign nation Taiwan. Why's that? Your thread is not about commie China and Taiwan. ...🤔 I find it strange you do not accept that your chum Putin is a murdering dictator, an invader of a neighbour for land grab, but you Reds are all the same, though like the comfort of the West, oh, and Thailand............😉 P.S. Your thread isn't going to well, is it..........😂 2 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post transam Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 4 minutes ago, BobBKK said: I see it went waaaaaaaay over your head. Have a nice day. Says a commie living in a none commie country........... 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 10 minutes ago, Will B Good said: What on Earth are you talking about? What the hell has China and Taiwan got to do with anything??????? Taiwan is not considered as a sovereign nation. So if China invade Taiwan, it is in theory an internal matter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will B Good Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 5 minutes ago, Hummin said: Taiwan is not considered as a sovereign nation. So if China invade Taiwan, it is in theory an internal matter. ....and that is relevant to the discussion of NATO 'expansion'...? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 8 minutes ago, Hummin said: Taiwan is not considered as a sovereign nation. So if China invade Taiwan, it is in theory an internal matter. Thank you - how he could not understand the logic escapes me - but it is TVF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, BobBKK said: Thank you - how he could not understand the logic escapes me - but it is TVF! Isn't that off topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will B Good Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 13 minutes ago, BobBKK said: If you cannot understand the example of a 'sovereign nation' and its context, then you are not used to debates, and I am wasting my time. Can anyone....not you BKK Bob....explain how China and Taiwan have any relevance to Putin using countries voluntarily joining NATO as an excuse for attacking Ukraine? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 10 minutes ago, transam said: Says a commie living in a none commie country........... Commie? Did you mean Homie? That's a nice endearment Trans thanks bro 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will B Good Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 11 minutes ago, Hummin said: Taiwan is not considered as a sovereign nation. So if China invade Taiwan, it is in theory an internal matter. So Ukraine can be attacked by Russia as it is part of Russia.....that's your argument???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 6 minutes ago, Will B Good said: ....and that is relevant to the discussion of NATO 'expansion'...? It's problematic when Usa Threatening China with war, when technically Taiwan is Chinese. Maybe the reason for his reasoning 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, Will B Good said: So Ukraine can be attacked by Russia as it is part of Russia.....that's your argument???? No, the argument is that you cannot use 'sovereign nation' like you did in your earlier post. Russia attacked Ukraine as it did not follow the USA's 1990 agreement and the Minsk Accord of 2014 and was slaughtering Russians in the Donbas. What is it you don't understand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hummin Posted June 24 Popular Post Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, Will B Good said: So Ukraine can be attacked by Russia as it is part of Russia.....that's your argument???? Not my arguments, but historically countries have a tendency to control their backyards and their interests. Usa have a long history of interventions world wide when it does not go their way. And as part of trading alliance and Nato, we follow up their policies and backing them with necessary resources. That how it is, and thats what we benefit from, That's why you and me can waste time here 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, Hummin said: It's problematic when Usa Threatening China with war, when technically Taiwan is Chinese. Maybe the reason for his reasoning I was showing the obvious hypocrisy in the argument. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presnock Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, BobBKK said: So, are we never to trust treaties, promises, and agreements? Your suggestion is chaos, lying, and betrayal everywhere—a world based on deceit and subterfuge. This is what humanity has come to? I hate to say it, but the USA is behind all this evil because it has a saviour complex - it thinks everywhere should be like America the Beautiful. Instead of cooperation we have domination. When it comes to evil ex-KGB and now Leader of Russia leads the pack. Not only invade Ukraine but shell civilian targets daily plus infrastructure. Ukraine would be smart to go ahead and give up the "occupied" territory now but only if Russia restores any other infrastructure or pays for its restoration. This is my opinion anyway as I ws born and still am anti-communist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 36 minutes ago, BobBKK said: Commie? Did you mean Homie? That's a nice endearment Trans thanks bro No, I don't make spelling mistakes very often........🤔 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placeholder Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I don't think anybody so far in this discussion has noticed what seems to me to be the obvious point: All these proposals were conditional. They all begin with "If.." There's no evidence that any negotations actually settled this question. In fact... Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No” Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated. Mark Kramer explored the question in detail in a 2009 article in The Washington Quarterly. He drew on declassified American, German and Soviet records to make his case and noted that, in discussions on German reunification in the two-plus-four format (the two Germanys plus the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France), the Soviets never raised the question of NATO enlargement other than how it might apply in the former German Democratic Republic (GDR). https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ The Myth of a No-NATO-Enlargement Pledge to Russia The documents from all sides fully bear out Zelikow’s argument and undermine the notion that the United States or other Western countries ever pledged not to expand NATO beyond Germany. The British, French, U.S., and West German governments did make certain commitments in 1990 about NATO’s role in eastern Germany, commitments that are all laid out in the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, but no Western leader ever offered any ‘‘pledge’’ or ‘‘commitment’’ or ‘‘categorical assurances’’ about NATO’s role vis-a`-vis the rest of the Warsaw Pact countries. Indeed, the issue never came up during the negotiations on German reunification, and Soviet leaders at the time never claimed that it did. https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy_files/files/publication/twq09aprilkramer.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBKK Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 30 minutes ago, placeholder said: I don't think anybody so far in this discussion has noticed what seems to me to be the obvious point: All these proposals were conditional. They all begin with "If.." There's no evidence that any negotations actually settled this question. In fact... Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No” Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated. Mark Kramer explored the question in detail in a 2009 article in The Washington Quarterly. He drew on declassified American, German and Soviet records to make his case and noted that, in discussions on German reunification in the two-plus-four format (the two Germanys plus the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France), the Soviets never raised the question of NATO enlargement other than how it might apply in the former German Democratic Republic (GDR). https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ The Myth of a No-NATO-Enlargement Pledge to Russia The documents from all sides fully bear out Zelikow’s argument and undermine the notion that the United States or other Western countries ever pledged not to expand NATO beyond Germany. The British, French, U.S., and West German governments did make certain commitments in 1990 about NATO’s role in eastern Germany, commitments that are all laid out in the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, but no Western leader ever offered any ‘‘pledge’’ or ‘‘commitment’’ or ‘‘categorical assurances’’ about NATO’s role vis-a`-vis the rest of the Warsaw Pact countries. Indeed, the issue never came up during the negotiations on German reunification, and Soviet leaders at the time never claimed that it did. https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy_files/files/publication/twq09aprilkramer.pdf "a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990" case closed even though you and the article very carefully do not mention Gorbachov was in his 80s when he gave that interview and under some manipulation by the West. He was broke and even made an advert for Pizza Hut. He ran for President in 1996 and got 0.5% of the vote. He commented "On 24 December 2021, Gorbachev said that the United States "grew arrogant and self-confident" after the collapse of the Soviet Union, resulting in "a new empire. Hence the idea of NATO expansion" - he was right there! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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