When you die, does the UK embassy notify HMRC?

[Foxx]

I believe that when a foreigner dies in Thailand approval has to be given by the relative embassy before the body can be released for disposal.

 

Does the British embassy (directly or indirectly) notify the UK tax authorities? Anyone know?

 

 

Thanks.

[billd766]

AFAIAC the UK embassy is about as much use to the majority of UK citizens in Thailand, as a bicycle is to a fish.

 

They are supposed to aid and assist British citizens worldwide but here in Thailand I doubt that they have any idea even of how many UK citizens are in Thailand at any one time, let alone where they live.

 

Why should they give or withhold permission of a UK citizen before the body can be released for disposal. They don't seem to ne interested when the citizens are alive, so why would they care when people die? When I die there is a list of people's phone numbers and email addresses that my wife will need to contact, however the UK embassy in Thailand is not on that list.

[Upnotover]

Plenty of information is available here;

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-to-do-after-a-british-person-dies-in-thailand?utm_source=%2Fbritish-embassy-bangkok&utm_medium=Embassy&utm_campaign=Bangkok

 

Whilst the Embassy needs some information in order for them to issue a consular letter to release the body there is no suggestion that they will do anything more to help the bereaved.  There is advice regarding informing UK entities so it seems it is up to those left behind to do what's needed.

[OJAS]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

They don't seem to ne interested when the citizens are alive, so why would they care when people die?

 

Indeed, the only part of The Great UK Government Machine which appears to have any concerns about us State Pensioners locally popping our clogs is DWP, which is presumably why we are required to provide fresh life certificates every couple of years or so. Why the Embassy seem so unable or unwilling to pass on to their DWP colleagues the info needed to enable pension payments to be stopped upon the death of a particular pensioner without the need for us all to be periodically subjected to this cumbersomely bureaucratic nonsense truly escapes me.

 

[bigt3116]

"Embassy: An embassy is the main diplomatic mission of one country in another country's capital city. It represents the sending country's government and serves as the highest level of diplomatic representation. Embassies are responsible for maintaining political, economic, and cultural relations between the two nations."

 

The embassy is not there to wrap useless people in cotton wool and guide their every step.

 

If you have a genuine emergency, then the consular department is available 24hrs a day to help

[Foxx]

My question was nothing to do with helping anyone.  I just wonder whether HMRC would actually know that somebody has died, and so demand inheritance tax. 

 

My cunning plan would be to move all my UK investments offshore and pass them on using my Thai will.  I would then leave so little in my UK bank accounts that the banks would release the money simply upon proof of death - no need for probate.  Doing so would bypass the issue of domicile of choice.

[billd766]

20 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Plenty of information is available here;

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-to-do-after-a-british-person-dies-in-thailand?utm_source=%2Fbritish-embassy-bangkok&utm_medium=Embassy&utm_campaign=Bangkok

 

Whilst the Embassy needs some information in order for them to issue a consular letter to release the body there is no suggestion that they will do anything more to help the bereaved.  There is advice regarding informing UK entities so it seems it is up to those left behind to do what's needed.

Buy WHY do they need to issue a consular letter, and to whom, in the first place? 

 

If they do nothing for me when I am alive, why should they care when I am dead. It only makes unnecessary work for themselves.

 

I understand that they don't inform the DWP, nor my other pension providers, nor do they contact any relatives that I have in the UK, so what DO they do?

 

That job will be the responsibility of my widow, and I have left instructions on my pc, giving phone numbers and email addresses of the people who need to know, and those friends who I would like to know of my death.

[Upnotover]

26 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Buy WHY do they need to issue a consular letter, and to whom, in the first place? 

 

If they do nothing for me when I am alive, why should they care when I am dead. It only makes unnecessary work for themselves.

 

I understand that they don't inform the DWP, nor my other pension providers, nor do they contact any relatives that I have in the UK, so what DO they do?

 

That job will be the responsibility of my widow, and I have left instructions on my pc, giving phone numbers and email addresses of the people who need to know, and those friends who I would like to know of my death.

Who knows why, perhaps it's a requirement of Thai bureaucracy rather than something the UK is interested in, but maybe a good idea to it to your to-do list.

[billd766]

21 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Plenty of information is available here;

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-to-do-after-a-british-person-dies-in-thailand?utm_source=%2Fbritish-embassy-bangkok&utm_medium=Embassy&utm_campaign=Bangkok

 

Whilst the Embassy needs some information in order for them to issue a consular letter to release the body there is no suggestion that they will do anything more to help the bereaved.  There is advice regarding informing UK entities so it seems it is up to those left behind to do what's needed.

Thank you for the link.

 

Right down the bottom of the screed is a little part called Bereavement Benefits.

 

Your widow has to meet certain requirements.

 

Bereavement Support Payment is not means-tested. This means what you earn or how much you have in savings will not affect what you get.

When your partner died, you must have been:

under State Pension age
living in the UK or a country that pays bereavement benefits
married to your partner, in a civil partnership with them, or living with them as if you were married

 

paid a certain amount of Class 1 or Class 2 National Insurance contributions in any one tax year since 6 April 1975
died because of an accident at work or a disease caused by work

 

I am not sure if Thailand pays bereavement benefits, but if they don't (I have a vague memory from years ago that the UK government at the time cancelled Bereavement Benefits for Thailand).

[poppysdad]

When my English wife died here a number of years ago the embassy was notified of her death by the hospital. The embassy phoned me to offer condolences and asked if I required any help which I declined. 
The embassy has nothing to do with getting my wife’s body out of the hospital and that was for me to arrange and only after I had payed all related bills would I be allowed to remove the body to the temple for cremation. 

 

[Sheryl]

54 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Buy WHY do they need to issue a consular letter, and to whom, in the first place? 

 

If they do nothing for me when I am alive, why should they care when I am dead. It only makes unnecessary work for themselves.

 

I understand that they don't inform the DWP, nor my other pension providers, nor do they contact any relatives that I have in the UK, so what DO they do?

 

That job will be the responsibility of my widow, and I have left instructions on my pc, giving phone numbers and email addresses of the people who need to know, and those friends who I would like to know of my death.

They are required to ensure next of kin were notified and give them opportunity to decide what is to be fone with the body. If next of kin are not in Thailand then Home Office will take it on to track down someone.

 

This is to avoid later complaints from family that they were not notified, or do not approve of how the remains were handled.

 

Not just UK. Most Embassies do the same. 

 

No idea if Embassy also notifies other government entities. 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

They are required to ensure next of kin were notified and give them opportunity to decide what is to be fone with the body. If next of kin are not in Thailand then Home Office will take it on to track down someone.

 

This is to avoid later complaints from family that they were not notified, or do not approve of how the remains were handled.

 

Not just UK. Most Embassies do the same. 

 

No idea if Embassy also notifies other government entities. 

Thank you for that information.

 

However I live with my Thai wife and my Thai/UK son when he is home from uni. In the UK I have an ex wife, (we divorced 25 years ago). My UK son, his wife and my 2 grandchildren (who I have never met) live in the UK and I probably have some nephews and nieces I have neither.

 

Even so the Embassy are unlikely to notify them anyway.

 

Which brings me back to the same question. WHY should the Embassy have any say on my body being released from the hospital in the first place? It is nothing to do with them at all.

 

It is down to my current Thai wife as my next of kin.

 

If she doesn't want to tell anybody else, it won't matter to me as I will be dead anyway.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that information.

 

However I live with my Thai wife and my Thai/UK son when he is home from uni. In the UK I have an ex wife, (we divorced 25 years ago). My UK son, his wife and my 2 grandchildren (who I have never met) live in the UK and I probably have some nephews and nieces I have neither.

 

Even so the Embassy are unlikely to notify them anyway.

 

Which brings me back to the same question. WHY should the Embassy have any say on my body being released from the hospital in the first place? It is nothing to do with them at all.

 

It is down to my current Thai wife as my next of kin.

 

If she doesn't want to tell anybody else, it won't matter to me as I will be dead anyway.

Yes, but the Embassy doesn't automatically know you have a Thai wife, do they? And not every UK citizrn who dies does.

 

In your case as soon as the Embassy ascertains you have a wife in Thailand, they will approve release of your body to your wife/in accordance with her instructions.

 

Many UK citizens die here unmarried/divorced widowed. The next of kin may be in the UK or other country and not aware of the death....and likely to be extremrly upset if they come to learn of it only months/years  later having had no chance to hold a funeral, collect their personal effects etc.  And then there is the problem of who will pay for the funeral (and possibly hospital bill) if next of kin aren't notified of the death.

 

The Embassy is not remotely interested in how your body is disposed of etc. They have a duty to ensure notification of the next of kin, full stop.

 

Suggest you give your wife the number of the Consular division and tell her thst she should call at once and inform them that she is your wife. 

 

 

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

No idea if Embassy also notifies other government entities. 

 

In the case of UK (as distinct from Thai) government entities, the answer is clearly "no". But if the Embassy are sending a consular letter to whomever and for whatever purpose in any event, then why can't they simply run off enough extra copies to send to their HMG colleagues in HMRC, DWP, etc who might also have a particular interest in our passing (e.g. so as to get pension payments stopped)? Hard-pressed to see how this would result in ginormous extra effort for Embassy staff!

 

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, poppysdad said:

When my English wife died here a number of years ago the embassy was notified of her death by the hospital. The embassy phoned me to offer condolences and asked if I required any help which I declined. 
The embassy has nothing to do with getting my wife’s body out of the hospital and that was for me to arrange and only after I had payed all related bills would I be allowed to remove the body to the temple for cremation. 

 

 

 Of course the Embassy did not arrange or pay for moving the body -- that is not their job.  But the Embassy will have  given the hospital authorization to release her body to you , having ascertained that you, her husband, were aware of the death.  

 

Whether this authorization is provided by formal letter or just telephone, I don't know, but it is an absolute requirement. Not just for UK citizens - for all foreigners, under Thai law.

 

Similarly, the Thai Embassy in any country would expect to be notified of all deaths of Thai citizens  and to be able to ensure that bodies are released as per the wishes of their next of kin.

 

 

[Raindancer]

35 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

 Of course the Embassy did not arrange or pay for moving the body -- that is not their job.  But the Embassy will have  given the hospital authorization to release her body to you , having ascertained that you, her husband, were aware of the death.  

 

Whether this authorization is provided by formal letter or just telephone, I don't know, but it is an absolute requirement. Not just for UK citizens - for all foreigners, under Thai law.

 

Similarly, the Thai Embassy in any country would expect to be notified of all deaths of Thai citizens  and to be able to ensure that bodies are released as per the wishes of their next of kin.

 

 

Sadly I have just had deal with the bureaucracy of losing a long-lost dear UK citizen friend.

 

He passed away in hospital and had specified that his body be left to science.

 

The UK embassy were not informed by the hospital.  And the widow also did not inform the UK embassy.

 

I dealt with notifying HMRC and his other UK pension providers, by writing to them on behalf of his widow, who provided death certificate and pension details.

 

The widow asked the hospital administrator if it was necessary to informn the UK  Embassy,  and they said no.   

 

They said, it only really applied to someone dying at home, where the police would automatically inform to the Embassy.

 

I am not saying that the hospital administrator was right or wrong in their statement,  but merely passing on a very recent experience.

Edited July 2 by Raindancer

[Sheryl]

9 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Sadly I have just had deal with the bureaucracy of losing a long-lost dear UK citizen friend.

 

He passed away in hospital and had specified that his body be left to science.

 

The UK embassy were not informed by the hospital.  And the widow also did not inform the UK embassy.

 

I dealt with notifying HMRC and his other UK pension providers, by writing to them on behalf of his widow, who provided death certificate and pension details.

 

The widow asked the hospital administrator if it was necessary to informn the UK  Embassy,  and they said no.   

 

They said, it only really applied to someone dying at home, where the police would automatically inform to the Embassy.

 

I am not saying that the hospital administrator was right or wrong in their statement,  but merely passing on a very recent experience.

 

They were wrong, per Thai law. They were not supposed to release the body without green light from the Embassy, and most hospitals know this.

 

But as his widow was there on the scene, it would have just been a (required) formality and no harm done in this instance.

 

 

[Raindancer]

13 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

They were wrong, per Thai law. They were not supposed to release the body without green light from the Embassy, and most hospitals know this.

 

But as his widow was there on the scene, it would have just been a (required) formality and no harm done in this instance.

 

 

The body wasn't "released" it was retained for science.

 

 

You say it is against Thai law, but then you say as his widow was there, it was just a formality. 

 

No Sheryl, I am not crossing swords with you, just slightly confused by Thai Law requirements, and being ok because his widow was there.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2 by Raindancer

[Sheryl]

28 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

The body wasn't "released" it was retained for science.

 

 

You say it is against Thai law, but then you say as his widow was there, it was just a formality. 

 

No Sheryl, I am not crossing swords with you, just slightly confused by Thai Law requirements, and being ok because his widow was there.

 

 

 

 

The legal requirement is to notify the Embassy and not release the body to anywhere/anyone (including for science) without OK from the Embassy. By release I mean out of the morgue. 

 

Obviously this was not followed in this instance. 

 

What  I meant by a formality was that, had the Embassy been notofied,  they would have immediately approved release of the body to wherever the wife wanted.  

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, but the Embassy doesn't automatically know you have a Thai wife, do they? And not every UK citizrn who dies does.

 

In your case as soon as the Embassy ascertains you have a wife in Thailand, they will approve release of your body to your wife/in accordance with her instructions.

 

Many UK citizens die here unmarried/divorced widowed. The next of kin may be in the UK or other country and not aware of the death....and likely to be extremrly upset if they come to learn of it only months/years  later having had no chance to hold a funeral, collect their personal effects etc.  And then there is the problem of who will pay for the funeral (and possibly hospital bill) if next of kin aren't notified of the death.

 

The Embassy is not remotely interested in how your body is disposed of etc. They have a duty to ensure notification of the next of kin, full stop.

 

Suggest you give your wife the number of the Consular division and tell her thst she should call at once and inform them that she is your wife. 

 

 

Thank you.

 

They should already know, as back in the old days she got a visa to come to the UK to marry me.

 

Also the embassy should have a record of the translation of the UK marriage certificate into Thai which was done plus it was signed and stamped by an officer at the embassy.

 

They should also have a record of our son as his first passport was issued by the embassy, naming me as his father and my Thai wife as his mother.

 

They also issued me with a letter confirming my address here and I haver not moved from here in nearly 20 years. 

 

Many years ago I used to be registered with the embassy but slowly they seemed to have lost interest and it is years since they last made contact.

 

IIRC I used to get letters from them confirming my pensions, but they stopped even  doing that years ago as well.

 

[bigt3116]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

Also the embassy should have a record of the translation of the UK marriage certificate into Thai which was done plus it was signed and stamped by an officer at the embassy.

 

They should also have a record of our son as his first passport was issued by the embassy, naming me as his father and my Thai wife as his mother.

 

They also issued me with a letter confirming my address here and I haver not moved from here in nearly 20 years. 

 

The embassy/consular section does not keep records of those things! You would have to be mad to think they do.

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Many years ago I used to be registered with the embassy but slowly they seemed to have lost interest and it is years since they last made contact.

 

IIRC I used to get letters from them confirming my pensions, but they stopped even  doing that years ago as well.

 

 

Yes, I registered my details on their LOCATE system several years ago - mainly because this was a condition of receiving their (sadly long-ceased) income confirmation letters!

 

Unfortunately the Embassy saw fit in their infinite wisdom to discontinue this service, supposedly on the grounds that very few expats were using it beyond those needing income confirmation letters. However they made virtually no effort to encourage its use in other areas. For example, one inducement which they could IMHO have easily offered was that, as a result of registering ourselves on LOCATE, never again would we be subject every couple of years or so to the torture of cumbersome DWP bureaucracy in the form of the dreaded life certificate. That alone would surely have resulted in local State Pensioners signing up in their droves, even if they did not need an income confirmation letter each year for Immigration purposes!

 

 

Edited July 3 by OJAS

[bigt3116]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

Unfortunately the Embassy saw fit in their infinite wisdom to discontinue this service, supposedly on the grounds that very few expats were using it beyond those needing income confirmation letters.

 

Blame the Thai authorities not the British Embassy. The Thais said that embassies had to check and confirm the income, obviously they would find that impossible or so manpower intensive as to be futile.

 

This is the reason many embassies stopped issuing confirmation letters.

 

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

For example, one inducement which they could IMHO have easily offered was that, as a result of registering ourselves on LOCATE, never again would we be subject every couple of years or so to the torture of cumbersome DWP bureaucracy in the form of the dreaded life certificate

 

And just exactly how did you think that would work? Register once and then never have to have a proof of life ever again? (eternal life). No, all your 'great' idea would have done is taken away some of the DWP's business and encumbered it onto embassies, a ridiculous idea.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

Yes, I registered my details on their LOCATE system several years ago - mainly because this was a condition of receiving their (sadly long-ceased) income confirmation letters!

 

Unfortunately the Embassy saw fit in their infinite wisdom to discontinue this service, supposedly on the grounds that very few expats were using it beyond those needing income confirmation letters. However they made virtually no effort to encourage its use in other areas. For example, one inducement which they could IMHO have easily offered was that, as a result of registering ourselves on LOCATE, never again would we be subject every couple of years or so to the torture of cumbersome DWP bureaucracy in the form of the dreaded life certificate. That alone would surely have resulted in local State Pensioners signing up in their droves, even if they did not need an income confirmation letter each year for Immigration purposes!

 

 

Thank you for a sensible post that is understandable.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

The embassy/consular section does not keep records of those things! You would have to be mad to think they do.

If the embassy does not keep records (they must because they knew this was my wife's second application) and they don't do confirmation letters, issue passports and visa's or help the majority of their citizens who have a problem, what do they do?

Edited July 3 by billd766

[topt]

27 minutes ago, billd766 said:

what do they do?

Mainly trade related - along with enjoying themselves.........

[topt]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:27 AM, Foxx said:

My question was nothing to do with helping anyone.  I just wonder whether HMRC would actually know that somebody has died, and so demand inheritance tax. 

 

My cunning plan would be to move all my UK investments offshore and pass them on using my Thai will.  I would then leave so little in my UK bank accounts that the banks would release the money simply upon proof of death - no need for probate.  Doing so would bypass the issue of domicile of choice.

If the banks are aware then I am not sure they would release any money - however small. Although happy to be corrected on that. 

Unless you are going to have more than £325,000 left (not sure how the double allowance works with a foreign born spouse)  no IHT anyway. 

Good luck with changing the domicile if you have more but not sure how they would pursue it.........?

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

Blame the Thai authorities not the British Embassy. The Thais said that embassies had to check and confirm the income, obviously they would find that impossible or so manpower intensive as to be futile.

 

This is the reason many embassies stopped issuing confirmation letters.

 

I was talking about the discontinuation of the Embassy's LOCATE system in the bit you were replying to, not the discontinuation of their income confirmation service!

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

And just exactly how did you think that would work? Register once and then never have to have a proof of life ever again? (eternal life). No, all your 'great' idea would have done is taken away some of the DWP's business and encumbered it onto embassies, a ridiculous idea.

 

What's so ridiculous about sparing State Pensioners here in LOS from the ordeals of the ritual which DWP insist on inflicting on us every couple of years or so in just about the most cumbersome and awkward manner imaginable to mankind, merely to prove that we are still in the land of the living?

[Foxx]

2 hours ago, topt said:

If the banks are aware then I am not sure they would release any money - however small. Although happy to be corrected on that. 

 

I bank with Nationwide who will release up to £50,000 based upon a death certificate and copy of the will, no questions asked and no need for probate.