Zelensky Challenges Trump on War Plans, Decries Weapons Delays

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

If Russia didn’t send their troops, Ukraine need not defend. No casualties and no need for peace negotiation. Elementary Dear Watson. 

Again, yes, but...... what is your point? We have to deal with the situation as it is, and try to find a workable solution. Not just wish for a different way things started.

I don't see an outcome that can both restore Ukranian terrirorial sovereignty and not result in a wider, if not global, war. 

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I am incapable of suffering fools gladly. Tell me why I should.

Which has nothing to do with insulting people on an anonymous forum.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Russia is bombarding hospitals and apartments in Ukraine with missiles as I post this, and claiming they are not targeting civilians. All LIES.

and had the west not seized the opportunity to bleed Russia without losing any western lives, Russia would not be bombarding hospitals and apartments in Ukraine with missiles. Plenty of blame to go around for this IMO un necessary war.

[paul545]

So many arm chair warriors so far from their own countries and the front line of the Ukrainian War who have all become experts whilst sat in their safe condo or back water village in Thailand. Most of you couldn’t fight your way out of a paper bag let alone fight for your country which the Ukrainians are doing. They are also preventing Putin marching further west to regain his old empire. When you are in their position and experience the horrors of war then I think you can comment. 

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Ah yes, the old "bootlicker" shibboleth.  I was wondering when it would be trotted out.  But as usual you are getting caught up in your own vituperation to actually evaluate the situation. 

 

Do you see any way for Ukraine to get its land back without NATO involvement on the ground? Well, probably American involvement since most of NATO is not capable of much in the way of offensive operations.  But otherwise, Ukraine is in a pickle. They can pretty much keep their attacker at bay, but can't go on the offensive- last spring/summer proved that. So, where does that leave us? 

I can see a stalemate for quite some time, Ukraine with modern weapons and Russia with half to 1 million bodies, using human wave tactics.They can hardly be called soldiers, given their poor equipment and perfunctory training. They don't even have a NCO system.

 

I can also see Russia in a death spiral, the combination of sanctions, declining demographics, absence of foreign capital, flight of Western technology and a collapsed education system will see to that. Not to mention its internal passenger aircraft routes - fairly important in a country as large as Russia - has half the aircraft it had, and the fleet is still shrinking. Check out the interest rates being offered by Russian banks on deposits.

 

Of course, this is dismissed by Kremlin apologists as propaganda. Unfortunately for them, it is also fact.

 

The decline of Russia actually started way back in the sixties. The Americans outpaced them in terms of computer development by a factor of about 10:1, and by the nineties the Russians were so far behind it was no longer possible to close the gap.

 

Putin may have got away with Crimea. Now many Russians will pay for his kleptomania for decades, if not centuries.

 

If someone was invading your country, killing your civilians and kidnapping your children, what would your response be? Do you think you can negotiate with a crocodile when it has its jaws latched onto your arm?

 

[candide]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and had the west not seized the opportunity to bleed Russia without losing any western lives, Russia would not be bombarding hospitals and apartments in Ukraine with missiles. Plenty of blame to go around for this IMO un necessary war.

Thank you, Vlad.

[metisdead]

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[frank83628]

8 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

It makes sense that a guy who thinks NATO started Russia's war thinks Venezuela is "under attack" by no less than "CANCER USA"!  It was Venezuela that moved to reduce ties with the United States, not the other way around; Venezuela that appropriated U.S. property, not the other way around; Venezuela that took U.S. citizens as political prisoners, not the other way around.

 

Weird how hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans have moved to "CANCER USA" rather than stay in noble Venezuela.

 

Supporting both Putin AND Maduro?  You're a winner, Frank!  Never change.

i didnt say nato started the war, but Putin warned years ago about nato encroachment and he is totally justified to not want us..sorry.. nato on his border.... you remember the cuban missile crisis right, how the yanks spat the dummy over that..well it's the same thing.

[candide]

2 hours ago, frank83628 said:

i didnt say nato started the war, but Putin warned years ago about nato encroachment and he is totally justified to not want us..sorry.. nato on his border.... you remember the cuban missile crisis right, how the yanks spat the dummy over that..well it's the same thing.

The cold war had been over for decades, and NATO was not particularly a threat to Russia. 

 

There are good indicators of this absence of threat from NATO, prior to the invasion of Ukraine;

- the decrease of military budgets across Europe (I.e. measured as a % of GDP), since the collapse of the Soviet Union,

- the decrease of U.S. military presence in Europe,

- the fact that nuclear weapons have remained where they were during the cold war, and have not followed the extension of NATO 'borders'. No nukes have been moved to countries such as Poland or Romania.

[Jingthing]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and had the west not seized the opportunity to bleed Russia without losing any western lives, Russia would not be bombarding hospitals and apartments in Ukraine with missiles. Plenty of blame to go around for this IMO un necessary war.

So you blame the west for Putin's war crimes. You really do deserve payment from the Kremlin.

[ChicagoExpat]

10 hours ago, frank83628 said:

i didnt say nato started the war, but Putin warned years ago about nato encroachment and he is totally justified to not want us..sorry.. nato on his border.... you remember the cuban missile crisis right, how the yanks spat the dummy over that..well it's the same thing.

Yes, that pesky habit of Russia thinking it still owns the countries that it used to dominate.  He has had NATO on his border for many years, and his invasion added another NATO country on his border that previously refused to join.  So you would support his invasion of Finland?  The Baltics?

 

The Cuban missile crisis was 60 years ago and an entirely different context.  So different it's an irrelevant comparison for the Ukraine invasion.

 

Maybe his neighbors wouldn't want to join NATO if, you know, Russia wasn't such a murderous, domineering Empire?  Just a thought...

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

 

Maybe his neighbors wouldn't want to join NATO if, you know, Russia wasn't such a murderous, domineering Empire?  Just a thought...

After many countries left the Soviet Union during the nineties, they no longer had centralised command economies, and the inevitable stagnation. Life got a lot better for most of their citizens, quite apart from dismantling the police states most lived under.

Russia is still a command economy in some ways, although it has also morphed into a kleptocracy.

Putin and his cadre of about 150 ex-KGB officials want to reverse history. Stupid, and destructive of Russia.

Think of how prosperous Russia would be, without the governments it has been cursed with for over a century.

 

[ChicagoExpat]

16 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

After many countries left the Soviet Union during the nineties, they no longer had centralised command economies, and the inevitable stagnation. Life got a lot better for most of their citizens, quite apart from dismantling the police states most lived under.

Russia is still a command economy in some ways, although it has also morphed into a kleptocracy.

Putin and his cadre of about 150 ex-KGB officials want to reverse history. Stupid, and destructive of Russia.

Think of how prosperous Russia would be, without the governments it has been cursed with for over a century.

 

Agree.  There is much I like about Russia, and sometimes I wish I could go back there to live and work, but a big part of the Russian psyche is 1) an absolute and unquestioning obedience to the czar and 2) a willingness to do literally anything asked of a person, if Mother Russia supposedly requires it.

[ChicagoExpat]

21 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

A distinction without a difference. Whatever pedantic vocabulary you choose, the longer the war goes the more Ukranians will die. And Russians too. But Russia can afford the casualties. It is their way of fighting since the Napoleonic Wars.

In the current Russia scenario, the "peace" crowd always supports the Russian side.  And they always deny being pro-Russian.  I want peace too, but I also recognize that rewarding Russia now incentivizes Russia to invade Ukraine/other countries (as it repeatedly has under Putin) again.

 

If you really wanted peace and weren't pro-Russian, you would want 1) Russia to lose 2) you would want Russia to pay a MAXIMUM, CRIPPLING  price either in a loss or an eventual negotiated settlement if they do get to keep some of their ill-gotten gains and 3) you wouldn't hate Zelensky the way it seems you do.

[frank83628]

22 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

In the current Russia scenario, the "peace" crowd always supports the Russian side.  And they always deny being pro-Russian.  I want peace too, but I also recognize that rewarding Russia now incentivizes Russia to invade Ukraine/other countries (as it repeatedly has under Putin) again.

 

If you really wanted peace and weren't pro-Russian, you would want 1) Russia to lose 2) you would want Russia to pay a MAXIMUM, CRIPPLING  price either in a loss or an eventual negotiated settlement if they do get to keep some of their ill-gotten gains and 3) you wouldn't hate Zelensky the way it seems you do.

so the only way for peace is the western way, great negotiation skills!

[ChicagoExpat]

26 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

so the only way for peace is the western way, great negotiation skills!

We're not discussing which negotiation skills are great, we're discussing what will actually achieve the peace that pro-Russia Western commenters here claim they want.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, ChicagoExpat said:

In the current Russia scenario, the "peace" crowd always supports the Russian side.  And they always deny being pro-Russian.  I want peace too, but I also recognize that rewarding Russia now incentivizes Russia to invade Ukraine/other countries (as it repeatedly has under Putin) again.

 

If you really wanted peace and weren't pro-Russian, you would want 1) Russia to lose 2) you would want Russia to pay a MAXIMUM, CRIPPLING  price either in a loss or an eventual negotiated settlement if they do get to keep some of their ill-gotten gains and 3) you wouldn't hate Zelensky the way it seems you do.

Rather simplistic. I don't think anyone wants Russia to win, or doesn't blame Russia for starting the war. Those are needless statements. The only real question to answer is "how to end the war". 

 

My answer is to cut a deal that prevents NATO direct involvement and therfore prevents WW3. A big problem is that many NATO countries have allowed their militaries to atrophy. Germany for example, can field less than 150 main battle tanks, and the same number of combat aircraft. So a land war may not be the answer.

 

Plus, the fantasy of crippling Russia is attractive, but.... that would leave a power vacuum that China would love to exploit. Better to keep Russia at least marginally strong and able to be a counterweight to China in Asia, instead of a crippled (and therefore dangerous) former power.

 

As for Zelensky, I confess that I do not like him. He is an autocrat, his country is not free, corruption is rife. The concept that fighting for Ukraine is "fighting for freedom" or "fighting for democracy" is both hilarious and sad. 

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I can see a stalemate for quite some time, Ukraine with modern weapons and Russia with half to 1 million bodies, using human wave tactics.They can hardly be called soldiers, given their poor equipment and perfunctory training. They don't even have a NCO system.

 

I can also see Russia in a death spiral, the combination of sanctions, declining demographics, absence of foreign capital, flight of Western technology and a collapsed education system will see to that. Not to mention its internal passenger aircraft routes - fairly important in a country as large as Russia - has half the aircraft it had, and the fleet is still shrinking. Check out the interest rates being offered by Russian banks on deposits.

 

Of course, this is dismissed by Kremlin apologists as propaganda. Unfortunately for them, it is also fact.

 

The decline of Russia actually started way back in the sixties. The Americans outpaced them in terms of computer development by a factor of about 10:1, and by the nineties the Russians were so far behind it was no longer possible to close the gap.

 

Putin may have got away with Crimea. Now many Russians will pay for his kleptomania for decades, if not centuries.

 

If someone was invading your country, killing your civilians and kidnapping your children, what would your response be? Do you think you can negotiate with a crocodile when it has its jaws latched onto your arm?

 

You must have a good imagination, IMO.

 

BTW in this situation stalemate is more harmful for Ukraine than Russia. Every man of the age is going to be terrified of the conscription police, and labour is going to be critically short with so many men in the front lines.

Meanwhile reconstruction can't start if it's just going to get blown up again.

 

If someone was invading your country, killing your civilians and kidnapping your children, what would your response be?

Given i'm ex military likely I'd be called up, and in any event I'd fight. However, I'm not Ukrainian, don't live in Ukraine, never been there, don't know any Ukrainians, so it's not my fight. Let the Ukrainians die for their country, but it's of no more importance to me personally that Burma, and I'm not over there fighting either.

 

[frank83628]

54 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

We're not discussing which negotiation skills are great, we're discussing what will actually achieve the peace that pro-Russia Western commenters here claim they want.

going to the negotiating table and see wouold be the fist move... but US doesn't want peace, you n others here don't because youre still in cold war mentality, probably watched Red heat last night too

[frank83628]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So you blame the west for Putin's war crimes. You really do deserve payment from the Kremlin.

yeah, i blame the wests interfering for the situation today, Jens Stoltenberg even said som much recently at a nato conference.

 

war crimes. well if Putins is guilty of them lets see bush, Blaire, etc etc under the same charges to make things equal. 

 

are you shill, paid by the MIC, the MSM, etc etc, better than you pension i guess

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

going to the negotiating table and see wouold be the fist move... but US doesn't want peace, you n others here don't because youre still in cold war mentality, probably watched Red heat last night too

Thinking about it, the west is sending loads of weapons, planes etc to Ukraine to continue the fight. Don't hear much about them calling for peace negotiations on realistic terms.

I guess you are correct in your opinion that the US doesn't want peace, as long as Ukraine can rustle up a few more bodies for the front lines.

[frank83628]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Thinking about it, the west is sending loads of weapons, planes etc to Ukraine to continue the fight. Don't hear much about them calling for peace negotiations on realistic terms.

I guess you are correct in your opinion that the US doesn't want peace, as long as Ukraine can rustle up a few more bodies for the front lines.

the less Ukrainians that live, the less will be said about the plundering of those 12 trillion in minerals Ukraine sits on!!

[tgw]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Thinking about it, the west is sending loads of weapons, planes etc to Ukraine to continue the fight. Don't hear much about them calling for peace negotiations on realistic terms.

 

stop the lies.

Putin has never offered realistic terms, nor did he offer terms that were trustworthy.

Ukraine offered realistic terms.

[frank83628]

18 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

stop the lies.

Putin has never offered realistic terms, nor did he offer terms that were trustworthy.

Ukraine offered realistic terms.

of course, putin bad ukraine good. 

[frank83628]

does this possibly have anything to do with the war in Ukraine and why the US doesn't want and end to it?? not like the US & nato hasn't done it before....Libya, Syria, cough cough

 

 

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2024/06/13/ukraine-12-trillion-minerals-west-china-russia/

[tgw]

10 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

of course, putin bad ukraine good. 

 

these are the facts.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations.html

 

[candide]

49 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

does this possibly have anything to do with the war in Ukraine and why the US doesn't want and end to it?? not like the US & nato hasn't done it before....Libya, Syria, cough cough

 

 

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2024/06/13/ukraine-12-trillion-minerals-west-china-russia/

It certainly has something to do with Russia invading Ukraine! 😁

[candide]

1 hour ago, frank83628 said:

the less Ukrainians that live, the less will be said about the plundering of those 12 trillion in minerals Ukraine sits on!!

K

Please keep up to date with Russian propaganda! You forgot to claim that the U.S. considers Ukraine as an American colony! 🤣

https://sputnikglobe.com/20240626/ukraines-minerals-what-the-west-is-fighting-for-1119119104.html

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, frank83628 said:

going to the negotiating table and see wouold be the fist move... but US doesn't want peace, you n others here don't because youre still in cold war mentality, probably watched Red heat last night too

Again, you have it completely backward.  The party that doesn't want peace is the party that invaded.  That is Russia.  It doesn't matter what I and others want.  It's what Russia wants.  And Russia wants war.  And land.  And more resources for oligarchs.  And a larger empire.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Again, you have it completely backward.  The party that doesn't want peace is the party that invaded.  That is Russia.  It doesn't matter what I and others want.  It's what Russia wants.  And Russia wants war.  And land.  And more resources for oligarchs.  And a larger empire.

Zack knows. 

 

https://youtu.be/eZirBNwkzWs?si=Eg4nc9r11geqra5x