Israel Hamas War the Widening Middle East Conflict

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3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

   Its a disingenuous headline it isn't true or correct .

Well the words are actually true, but is gives a false narrative .

   Headline and story claims that Israel are giving Hamas weapons , if you read the whole story to the end, it then states the truth .

   You posted the story to give the false impression that Israel are providing weapons for Hamas "Its all the Jews fault. they are providing the weapons for the war, just like they did in WW2" 

How can  a headline give a false narrative? It was a very surprising fact and a great article. It reported on a topic which was at best, underreported on. And it gives the lie to claims that tight border control will cut off the supply of weapons.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because for it to be a valid question you would need some evidence that the UNRWA was somehow involved in the action. Is there any evidence that this theft of a body was officially sanctioned by the UNRWA and just the act of someone who happened to be an employee?

If nine of the thirty-five thousand employees at Disneyland we're killing and raping customers, would Disney not be liable? 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How can  a headline give a false narrative? It was a very surprising fact and a great article. It reported on a topic which was at best, underreported on. And it gives the lie to claims that tight border control will cut off the supply of weapons.

And it gives the lie to claims that tight border control will cut off the supply of weapons.

 

How does it? Its 6 months old and since then the smuggling tunnels in the philadelphi corridor have been destroyed. If anything it makes a strong argument that border controls are working if they are resorting to having to find unexploded ordnance. If there are tight controls how else can they get in?

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How can  a headline give a false narrative? It was a very surprising fact and a great article. It reported on a topic which was at best, underreported on. And it gives the lie to claims that tight border control will cut off the supply of weapons.

And gives merit to the lie that tight border control will not greatly reduce the supply of weapons.

 

This is the same as your lame wall argument, the wall does not stop everyone, so it's useless. In this case, the Palestinians are able to scrape out a few weapons from scrap, so there is no reason to have tight border control, yes? 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How can  a headline give a false narrative?

 

    Your post above is a good example of that .

When the headline is different to the story   

 

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

 

 Which suggests that Israel are giving weapons to Hamas .

Israel are NOT giving weapons' to Hamas 

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14 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If nine of the thirty-five thousand employees at Disneyland we're killing and raping customers, would Disney not be liable? 

First off, if they were doing it on Disney property , Disney might be held legally liable in civil court. But to be held criminally liable it would have to be shown that Disney management actually was involved in orchestrating the killing and raping of customers. 

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14 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

And it gives the lie to claims that tight border control will cut off the supply of weapons.

 

How does it? Its 6 months old and since then the smuggling tunnels in the philadelphi corridor have been destroyed. If anything it makes a strong argument that border controls are working if they are resorting to having to find unexploded ordnance. If there are tight controls how else can they get in?

They were turning ordinance into weaponry before the war broke out, and before the tunnels were destroyed. So, it isn't a question of having to resort to finding unexploded ordinance, it was a practice well in place before the war.

Also, it's a common assumption made by some in cases of asymmetrical warfare to underestimate the resourcefulness and adaptability of an opponent weaker. We've seen that mistake made over and over again elsewhere. And in Israel, too.

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14 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    Your post above is a good example of that .

When the headline is different to the story   

 

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

 

 Which suggests that Israel are giving weapons to Hamas .

Israel are NOT giving weapons' to Hamas 

It's a surprising fact and an important story. And you can dwell on the headline all you want. The fact is that Hamas was getting un a surprsingly large portion of its armaments from Israeli ordinance. There certainly isn't going to be a shortage of that lying around in Gaza now.

 

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14 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Future of what, you linked to a 6 month old article, you think they still have working lathes to make rockets?

Well, it's either a future reference or an unsupported assertion. What percentage of the tunnels in Gaza have Israeli forces destroyed? Does anyone really know? Should we accept skeptically whatever claims the IDF makes in that regard? As I have previously pointed out, always suspect to denigrate the capabilities of a less conventionally capable enemy.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

They were turning ordinance into weaponry before the war broke out, and before the tunnels were destroyed. So, it isn't a question of having to resort to finding unexploded ordinance, it was a practice well in place before the war.

Also, it's a common assumption made by some in cases of asymmetrical warfare to underestimate the resourcefulness and adaptability of an opponent weaker. We've seen that mistake made over and over again elsewhere. And in Israel, too.

 

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Well, it's either a future reference or an unsupported assertion. What percentage of the tunnels in Gaza have Israeli forces destroyed? Does anyone really know? Should we accept skeptically whatever claims the IDF makes in that regard? As I have previously pointed out, always suspect to denigrate the capabilities of a less conventionally capable enemy.

Its been well documented before your NYT effort of how they obtain some of their material from unexploded ordinance but that does not negate the need it had/has for specialized equipment that was smuggled via sea and other routes, its not new found knowledge.

 

However the irony of you claiming I'm making future references or unsupported assertions is not lost, I am referring to now, not the future. Its you that's brought up a six month old article without acknowledging that a lot of their military infrastructure has been eliminated since then. Its smuggling routes have been eliminated and its capabilities to manufacture rockets with the use of heavy machinery, lathes etc is also diminished. Evidence of this is in well documented by the IDF the same IDF that you question their credibility. Diminished frequency of rocket launches is a fact and the number of weapon making workshops and facilities already destroyed is also a fact backed up with video and imagery evidence.

 

However its clear that you'd argue with your own shadow on this, the evidence of your low and vile criticism of a hostage's mothers words to UNRWA about her son who's body is still being held makes it distasteful for me to engage with you any further.

 

 

[coolcarer]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

What do you think the mums of murdered Palestinians are saying? You think evidentiary issues should be decided by enraged and grieving people? That standard would certainly make for interesting jury selections.

Let the mum have her say to the idiot head of UNWRA who claimed not to know about the Hamas Data center below his UNWRA HQ in Gaza. She has every right to shout at him. I’d also be asking him why they had not got the worker arrested and brought to justice.

[Bkk Brian]

I remember this.

 

"Early in the war, Israel asked the UN to help evacuate Palestinian civilians out of combat zones where Hamas was using them as human shields. The UN refused. "

 

 

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On 8/10/2024 at 1:45 PM, Bkk Brian said:

Nothing about their bodies being stolen by UNWRA and taken back to Gaza for ransom. 

 

https://x.com/Israel/status/1819325058730410127

 

False, The body in question wasn't stolen by the UNRWA. Their  Unless the UNRWA actually authorized this act. Is there any evidence that the UNRWA ordered this? All that is known is that someone who happened to be a UNRWA member stole the body.

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8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I remember this.

 

"Early in the war, Israel asked the UN to help evacuate Palestinian civilians out of combat zones where Hamas was using them as human shields. The UN refused. "

 

 

Who is this person being interviewed by the untrustworthy Eylon Levy?  Maybe the UN didn't want to be made complicit in Israel's brutality?

 

UN relief chief: 'No place safe' for civilians in southern Gaza

"And the message that we have been giving – we here being the humanitarian community, and I represent the humanitarian community writ large, not just the United Nations – is that we do not have a humanitarian operation in southern Gaza that can be called by that name anymore. That the pace of the military assault in southern Gaza is a repeat of the assault in northern Gaza. That it has made no place safe for civilians in southern Gaza, which had been a cornerstone of the humanitarian plan to protect civilians and thus to provide aid to them."

https://www.unocha.org/news/un-relief-chief-no-place-safe-civilians-southern-gaza

 

Especially given that Israel's plan was to turn a barren strip of sand dunes with virtually no infrastructure into a refugee zone.

"Israel declared Al-Mawasi a "safe zone". Internally displaced persons who fled to Al-Mawasi reported no water, electricity, or buildings to shelter. The UN and relief groups do not recognize Al-Mawasi or provide services there. Al-Mawasi has been attacked numerous times during the war."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mawasi,_Rafah#:~:text=Israel declared Al-Mawasi a,numerous times during the war.

 

It looks more like Israel was attempting to set up the UN to be its partner in crime. 

 

 

 

 

[coolcarer]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

False, The body in question wasn't stolen by the UNRWA. Their  Unless the UNRWA actually authorized this act. Is there any evidence that the UNRWA ordered this? All that is known is that someone who happened to be a UNRWA member stole the body.

Gosh not enough room on her t shirt for all that, she just went for UNRWA kidnapped my son. Would you correct that to the grieving mums face? Or just being an announymous post who has never been in her position is enough? She also asked where is he? The last time seen was his body being snatched by the UNRWA worker? Where is that worker and body? What did he do with it?

[stevenl]

Imo nethanyahu is doing all he can to extend the conflict. He doesn't want to be held accountable by the international community and there are also within Israel legal problems for him.

The far right is supporting him because they won't mind a widening of the conflict and want to annex the west bank.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Imo nethanyahu is doing all he can to extend the conflict. He doesn't want to be held accountable by the international community and there are also within Israel legal problems for him.

The far right is supporting him because they won't mind a widening of the conflict and want to annex the west bank.

How would the "international community" hold him accountable?

Do you think he does not have the support of the Israeli people? 

Do you think Israel should surrender to Hamas? 

If you do not you think Israel should surrender to Hamas, what do you think Netanyahu should do differently? 

[Bkk Brian]

Iran waiting to get all its ducks in a row. 

 

New Israeli intelligence suggests Iran prepares to attack Israel within days: sources

The new intelligence assessment indicates an attack could come before the Gaza hostage and ceasefire deal talks planned for Thursday, potentially jeopardizing negotiations at what Israeli officials have said is a "now-or-never" moment for a potential deal between Israel and Hamas.

But one of the sources who has direct knowledge of the intelligence said the situation is "still fluid."

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/11/iran-attack-israel-intelligence-updated

 

Pentagon chief orders submarine to the Middle East, tells aircraft carrier to hasten its transit

 U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has ordered a guided missile submarine to the Middle East and is telling the USS Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier strike group to sail more quickly to the area, the Defense Department said Sunday.

The moves come as the U.S. and other allies push for Israel and Hamas to achieve a cease-fire agreement that could help calm soaring tensions in the region following the assassination of Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran and a senior Hezbollah commander in Beirut.

Officials have been on the lookout for retaliatory strikes by both Iran and Hezbollah for the killings, and the U.S. has been beefing up its presence in the region.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-us-submarine-carrier-43e2574e746af59993f54e4ef250a640

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7 hours ago, coolcarer said:

Gosh not enough room on her t shirt for all that, she just went for UNRWA kidnapped my son. Would you correct that to the grieving mums face? Or just being an announymous post who has never been in her position is enough? She also asked where is he? The last time seen was his body being snatched by the UNRWA worker? Where is that worker and body? What did he do with it?

More appeals to emotion in your post. Her questions would be valid if she were asking them of a Hamas official. If, say, a worker for Microsoft kidnapped a body, would it make sense to ask Bill Gates where that body was?

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

More appeals to emotion in your post. Her questions would be valid if she were asking them of a Hamas official. If, say, a worker for Microsoft kidnapped a body, would it make sense to ask Bill Gates where that body was?

Do you think Gates would refuse to help? 

[coolcarer]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

More appeals to emotion in your post. Her questions would be valid if she were asking them of a Hamas official. If, say, a worker for Microsoft kidnapped a body, would it make sense to ask Bill Gates where that body was?

Avoided every single question. Yes I have empathy for her. Not a trait shown by everyone. Would you say that to her face? Do you know Hamas have the body?

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7 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Avoided every single question. Yes I have empathy for her. Not a trait shown by everyone. Would you say that to her face? Do you know Hamas have the body?

Here you go again trying to make it personal. In other words, it's a deflection. What I feel is irrelevant. What is irrelevant is that this grieving mother's suffering is being used to cast aspersions on the UN. Where is the evidence that the UN was involved in this? Because the party who stole her son's body is an employee of the UN? Was I not clear enough in the example I gave about a Microsoft employee? Why do you think it makes sense to credit her claim that the UN stole her son's body?

[coolcarer]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Here you go again trying to make it personal. In other words, it's a deflection. What I feel is irrelevant. What is irrelevant is that this grieving mother's suffering is being used to cast aspersions on the UN. Where is the evidence that the UN was involved in this? Because the party who stole her son's body is an employee of the UN? Was I not clear enough in the example I gave about a Microsoft employee? Why do you think it makes sense to credit her claim that the UN stole her son's body?

That’s a no then, you wouldn't say that to her face, I guess thats why the head of UNWRA didn't either. But its ok, you're on a forum.

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13 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

That’s a no then, you wouldn't say that to her face, I guess thats why the head of UNWRA didn't either. But its ok, you're on a forum.

Another personal deflection.

I guess that's because you've got nothing to say about the validity of the assertion that the UN kidnapped her son or the reason why an official from the UN should even be asked this question.

[coolcarer]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Another personal deflection.

I guess that's because you've got nothing to say about the validity of the assertion that the UN kidnapped her son or the reason why an official from the UN should even be asked this question.

 No I would not dare question her assertion. This is not a court of law. I have nothing but sympathy for her. I leave the questioning to others. 🙁

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5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

 No I would not dare question her assertion. This is not a court of law. I have nothing but sympathy for her. I leave the questioning to others. 🙁

So the only proper venue to challenge dubious assertions is a court of law? It looks like you don't have much use for facts.

[coolcarer]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

 

So the only proper venue to challenge dubious assertions is a court of law? It looks like you don't have much use for facts.

There is a time and place but not to the mother which was my question that you have still deflected. 

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3 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

There is a time and place but not to the mother which was my question that you have still deflected. 

Do you believe that this mother is reading this page or any page of aseannow.com? Are we supposed to not examine claims based on the fear that somehow she might be cognizant of what is written here. What is your point?

And I have not deflected your question. I just haven't given you the yes/no answer you want because it's a deflection. My feelings are irrelevant to the validity of the claim that the UN kidnapped the body of this woman's son.

[coolcarer]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you believe that this mother is reading this page or any page of aseannow.com? Are we supposed to not examine claims based on the fear that somehow she might be cognizant of what is written here. What is your point?

And I have not deflected your question. I just haven't given you the yes/no answer you want because it's a deflection. My feelings are irrelevant to the validity of the claim that the UN kidnapped the body of this woman's son.

“My feelings are irrelevant to the validity of the claim”

 

I noticed, not the first time either.

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4 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

“My feelings are irrelevant to the validity of the claim”

 

I noticed, not the first time either.

You noticed, but so far you don't have a refutation for it.