Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, patman30 said:

Correct, tax is applicable to funds acquired after Jan 2024

my advice would be remit a lot this year
who knows what it may be in a few years time.

Remitting a lot this year would expose you to more tax, why do it?

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Well no, because under world wide tax rules, the income should have already been reported, if they weren't, that's tax evasion. 

You are basing your argument on a set of rules that haven’t been written yet. There is no standard set of tax rules every country has their on rules. Many are similar none are exactly the same. It is totally pointless to argue that under some unpublished rules that some capital gain will or will not be taxed and that under the same set of mythical rules certain conditions will apply. You don’t know, you can’t know.

with all taxation rules the devil is in the details and since there are no details there is nothing to pontificate on.

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

According to your statement, they are always CG gains, whereas I think they become savings at some point in time

The current Thai rules are clear
1) the capital gain has been realised this year and you are tax resident in Thailand, the funds are kept outside Thailand 

2) given that the rules do not change, you remit them to Thailand in any year. There is no time that can pass where you are a tax resident in Thailand and those funds magically change state from assessable to non-assessable.

 

until 1/1/204 the magic time was 1 year now there is no limit 

 

Thai rules can change, they may restore the magic, I don’t think they will but they could.

[topt]

30 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The current Thai rules are clear
1) the capital gain has been realised this year and you are tax resident in Thailand, the funds are kept outside Thailand 

2) given that the rules do not change, you remit them to Thailand in any year. There is no time that can pass where you are a tax resident in Thailand and those funds magically change state from assessable to non-assessable.

 

until 1/1/204 the magic time was 1 year now there is no limit 

 

Thai rules can change, they may restore the magic, I don’t think they will but they could.

Unfortunately I concur. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Will the bank take out tax even if the account holder does not stay more then a few months ?

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Will the bank take out tax even if the account holder does not stay more then a few months ?

You really need to give more information if you expect a sensible answer 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You really need to give more information if you expect a sensible answer 

A person having a bank account in Thailand with money in the account but who does not stay more then few months here....

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

A person having a bank account in Thailand with money in the account but who does not stay more then few months here....

The bank will deduct tax from the interest. You can make a tax return and recover the interest.

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The current Thai rules are clear
1) the capital gain has been realised this year and you are tax resident in Thailand, the funds are kept outside Thailand 

2) given that the rules do not change, you remit them to Thailand in any year. There is no time that can pass where you are a tax resident in Thailand and those funds magically change state from assessable to non-assessable.

 

until 1/1/204 the magic time was 1 year now there is no limit 

 

Thai rules can change, they may restore the magic, I don’t think they will but they could.

I agree.

Let's turn it around: if you want to avoid taxes, 

sell your house/stock in a year you are not a tax resident and remit it in the same year (or in another year that you are not a tax resident)

The same logic applies to any remittances of money (not only capital gains) you made after 1/1/2024 for people who in some years are not tax resident: choose these years to remit income, and remit income that you in made this same year 

 

You agree?

 

 

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The current Thai rules are clear
1) the capital gain has been realised this year and you are tax resident in Thailand, the funds are kept outside Thailand 

2) given that the rules do not change, you remit them to Thailand in any year. There is no time that can pass where you are a tax resident in Thailand and those funds magically change state from assessable to non-assessable.

 

until 1/1/204 the magic time was 1 year now there is no limit 

 

Thai rules can change, they may restore the magic, I don’t think they will but they could.

I must admit it does seem that way. 

 

Is anyone recording these points that are uncovered or decided, they appear to be important for everyone to know, is there a mechanism for that?

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are basing your argument on a set of rules that haven’t been written yet. There is no standard set of tax rules every country has their on rules. Many are similar none are exactly the same. It is totally pointless to argue that under some unpublished rules that some capital gain will or will not be taxed and that under the same set of mythical rules certain conditions will apply. You don’t know, you can’t know.

with all taxation rules the devil is in the details and since there are no details there is nothing to pontificate on.

The detailed rules may not yet have been decided but the basic premise of world wide taxation is that all income is declared in the year it arises, regardless of where it arises. If income arises in a year when it is not reported, that would appear to be evasion.

[Mike Teavee]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The current Thai rules are clear
1) the capital gain has been realised this year and you are tax resident in Thailand, the funds are kept outside Thailand 

2) given that the rules do not change, you remit them to Thailand in any year. There is no time that can pass where you are a tax resident in Thailand and those funds magically change state from assessable to non-assessable.

 

until 1/1/204 the magic time was 1 year now there is no limit 

 

Thai rules can change, they may restore the magic, I don’t think they will but they could.

On the surface, the Rules are very clear but the devil is always in the detail.  E.g. If I made a £10,000 gain on 1 stock & a £10,000 loss on another, as far as the UK is concerned It's a wash, but Thailand doesn't recognise Capital Gain losses so if I were to remit the money from the 1st sale would I still have £10,000 of Capital Gains to Report? What if I made the Gain in December 2024 and the Loss in January 2025, would this change anything due to the tax year difference?

 

Or what If I took the money (including the Gain) &...

1. invested it in Singapore for a couple of years, would the gain still count if I sold/remitted the money to Thailand or would it have been reset when I moved it to Singapore?
2. Gave it to my Brother as a bridging loan to buy a property & he gave it back to me when he sold his property, is the Capital Gains still there or is this simply the repayment of a loan?
3. Just gave it to my brother as a Birthday present & the following year he gave me the same amount of money for my Birthday, is the gain still there? 

 

I know, some outlandish scenarios (though 1 & 2 are ones I've done) but you can see how things become very unclear unless you just sell, remit the money & declare the gain. 

[CANSIAM]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:14 PM, Lacessit said:

The interesting part will come if you go to Immigration and they demand a TIN as part of the extension process.

 

You will then be able to use a very common Thai expression, "mai mee".

If that's the case, I'll walk in there saying "mai mee" present them with stacks of employer payslips all dated prior to 2024, then say lets carry on with my 1900 baht extension please....... 

[topt]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

so if I were to remit the money from the 1st sale would I still have £10,000 of Capital Gains to Report?

I think so - but that is just me.......

And I don't think there will be a clear steer on this, and similar scenarios, for some years unless TRD start chasing and enforcing. Even then it may be different at different RD offices.......

Personally I am very dubious that unless the gain has been crystallised and the money is in cash at 31/12/2023 that you can call it "savings". But of course very happy to be proved wrong on this 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the surface, the Rules are very clear but the devil is always in the detail.  E.g. If I made a £10,000 gain on 1 stock & a £10,000 loss on another, as far as the UK is concerned It's a wash, but Thailand doesn't recognise Capital Gain losses so if I were to remit the money from the 1st sale would I still have £10,000 of Capital Gains to Report? What if I made the Gain in December 2024 and the Loss in January 2025, would this change anything due to the tax year difference?

 

Or what If I took the money (including the Gain) &...

1. invested it in Singapore for a couple of years, would the gain still count if I sold/remitted the money to Thailand or would it have been reset when I moved it to Singapore?
2. Gave it to my Brother as a bridging loan to buy a property & he gave it back to me when he sold his property, is the Capital Gains still there or is this simply the repayment of a loan?
3. Just gave it to my brother as a Birthday present & the following year he gave me the same amount of money for my Birthday, is the gain still there? 

 

I know, some outlandish scenarios (though 1 & 2 are ones I've done) but you can see how things become very unclear unless you just sell, remit the money & declare the gain. 

I was considering other options of alternate use of the funds, after the gain is realised but before they are remitted, preferably something that negates assessability altogether, such as Gifting perhaps, or something in a fixed low rate of tax. The implications of what has been said so far is that the Thai CG aspect must be satisfied at some point and that it can never go away. I don't believe that is necessarily true, the TRD doesn't keep historical records of the status of funds to ensure that each potential liability is satisfied. If the remitter changes the use of those funds, similar to the things you have set out, that is the remiters overseas prerogative which has nothing to do with TRD. It's only the most recent status of the funds that's important, not what they may have been used for years before.

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

It's only the most recent status of the funds that's important, not what they may have been used for years before.

I agree, but if that was confirmed to be the case then there would be nothing to stop me from selling a stock, buying a different stock (in the UK it would have to be different or I would need to keep it 30 days) and then selling this reporting whatever gain I made on the 2nd sale only... 

 

I can see a conversation with TRD where they ask me where the money I remitted came from, I say sale of an asset & show them the purchase/sale contract notes to show no Capital Gains but I can't see a scenario where they then go on to ask me where i got the money from to purchase the 2nd asset as where would that end... E.g. Where did I get the money from to purchase the asset that I sold to purchase the asset that I sold to purchase the 2nd asset... etc... to the very 1st asset purchase (> 35 years ago)! We're talking forensic accounting type investigations, not something I can see TRD having the will/manpower to     

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

invested it in Singapore for a couple of years, would the gain still count if I sold/remitted the money to Thailand or would it have been reset when I moved it to Singapore?

This part got me thinking on my morning walk, if I realise capital gains & send them to a different country before remitting them to Thailand then which country's DTA would be in effect? 

 

Would it be the country where the gains were realised? or the country from which they were remitted?

 

[chiang mai]

37 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I agree, but if that was confirmed to be the case then there would be nothing to stop me from selling a stock, buying a different stock (in the UK it would have to be different or I would need to keep it 30 days) and then selling this reporting whatever gain I made on the 2nd sale only... 

 

I can see a conversation with TRD where they ask me where the money I remitted came from, I say sale of an asset & show them the purchase/sale contract notes to show no Capital Gains but I can't see a scenario where they then go on to ask me where i got the money from to purchase the 2nd asset as where would that end... E.g. Where did I get the money from to purchase the asset that I sold to purchase the asset that I sold to purchase the 2nd asset... etc... to the very 1st asset purchase (> 35 years ago)! We're talking forensic accounting type investigations, not something I can see TRD having the will/manpower to     

The above brings us back to my original point, how long must funds be held before they are considered to be something else, savings or just funds...call them what you will. Funds from various sources that are commingled in a single account, lose their identity in many tax regimes and we have yet to understand how TRD handles such accounts. My strongest suspicion is that there is something similar to a statute of limitations governing the origin and status of funds, which if held beyond that period, then causes those funds to enter a different realm of forensics which is not deemed practical or worthwhile investigating, thus an amnesty is given on them. This is mostly conjecture of course but it is based on prior hands on experience. 

[chiang mai]

36 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

This part got me thinking on my morning walk, if I realise capital gains & send them to a different country before remitting them to Thailand then which country's DTA would be in effect? 

 

Would it be the country where the gains were realised? or the country from which they were remitted?

 

The source of the funds and the country they are remitted from, are two different things. Remitting assessable funds from a second country, doesn't make them not assessable. But you get an A+ for creativity and mental effort on that one. 🙂

[patman30]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Remitting a lot this year would expose you to more tax, why do it?

if the funds remitted are not accessible income
how would that expose you to more tax?
 

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

I agree.

Let's turn it around: if you want to avoid taxes, 

sell your house/stock in a year you are not a tax resident and remit it in the same year (or in another year that you are not a tax resident)

The same logic applies to any remittances of money (not only capital gains) you made after 1/1/2024 for people who in some years are not tax resident: choose these years to remit income, and remit income that you in made this same year 

 

You agree?

You have made some unnecessary restrictions but are on the right track.

only talking about TRD

 

Money generated in a year you are not tax resident is not assessable income whenever it is remitted, so you only need to be non resident in the year you sell your house and make the capital gain, SO ONLY 1 year as a nonresident is required.

 

if you are a nonresident you have no assessable income irrespective of when or how it was generated 

 

All the above is predicated on the current rules not changing.

of course if the rules change the above avoidance strategies may not apply.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the surface, the Rules are very clear but the devil is always in the detail.  E.g. If I made a £10,000 gain on 1 stock & a £10,000 loss on another, as far as the UK is concerned It's a wash, but Thailand doesn't recognise Capital Gain losses so if I were to remit the money from the 1st sale would I still have £10,000 of Capital Gains to Report? What if I made the Gain in December 2024 and the Loss in January 2025, would this change anything due to the tax year difference?

 

Or what If I took the money (including the Gain) &...

1. invested it in Singapore for a couple of years, would the gain still count if I sold/remitted the money to Thailand or would it have been reset when I moved it to Singapore?
2. Gave it to my Brother as a bridging loan to buy a property & he gave it back to me when he sold his property, is the Capital Gains still there or is this simply the repayment of a loan?
3. Just gave it to my brother as a Birthday present & the following year he gave me the same amount of money for my Birthday, is the gain still there? 

 

I know, some outlandish scenarios (though 1 & 2 are ones I've done) but you can see how things become very unclear unless you just sell, remit the money & declare the gain. 

All of the above numbered scenarios are bordering on money laundering tax evasion so you will need a skilled tax accountant to avoid penalties.

With 2 &3 if you are audited it would depend on the depth of information required as to if the evasion strategy would work.

 

In the first example you have a £10,000 of assessable income whenever remitted to Thailand 

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are basing your argument on a set of rules that haven’t been written yet. There is no standard set of tax rules every country has their on rules. Many are similar none are exactly the same. It is totally pointless to argue that under some unpublished rules that some capital gain will or will not be taxed and that under the same set of mythical rules certain conditions will apply. You don’t know, you can’t know.

with all taxation rules the devil is in the details and since there are no details there is nothing to pontificate on.

Well as of this year, the tax rules are pretty clear, with an LTR and DTA with only US gvt pension I feel secure in no taxes (in Thailand) this year but since TIT all that could change if they decide to do so.  Hopefully not anytime in the next 10 years anyway.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The detailed rules may not yet have been decided but the basic premise of world wide taxation is that all income is declared in the year it arises, regardless of where it arises. If income arises in a year when it is not reported, that would appear to be evasion.

That, as far as Thailand is concerned, is your viewpoint. It might be correct, it might be the excretion of a male bovine.

when or if the rules are enacted we will find out which.

 

The U.K. is said to have world wide taxation. I am a U.K. taxpayer. I am not taxed on my world wide income I fully comply with U.K. tax laws. The details are vital. There are only 2 countries that actually have world wide taxation. The chances of Thailand joining that club are slim, I hope.

[Mike Teavee]

25 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

All of the above numbered scenarios are bordering on money laundering tax evasion so you will need a skilled tax accountant to avoid penalties.

With 2 &3 if you are audited it would depend on the depth of information required as to if the evasion strategy would work.

 

In the first example you have a £10,000 of assessable income whenever remitted to Thailand 

As mentioned 1 & 2 are scenarios I've found myself in when I was a tax resident of Singapore & also needed to file returns in the UK, everything was fully reported by PWC in Singapore & my UK Accountant so no Tax evasion/money laundering was involved.  

 

#3 was a bit tongue in cheek after all the discussions about "Gifts", but I think you gifting your Wife the full proceeds of the sale in the UK & her remitting it to herself in Thailand wouldn't be assessable income for either of you.   

[Lorry]

57 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You have made some unnecessary restrictions but are on the right track.

only talking about TRD

 

Money generated in a year you are not tax resident is not assessable income whenever it is remitted, so you only need to be non resident in the year you sell your house and make the capital gain, SO ONLY 1 year as a nonresident is required.

 

if you are a nonresident you have no assessable income irrespective of when or how it was generated 

 

All the above is predicated on the current rules not changing.

of course if the rules change the above avoidance strategies may not apply.

Yes, I think so too.

TRD has said it very clearly.

My " unnecessary restrictions" are unnecessary according to the rules of today.

They are just a layer of - hopefully unnecessary, and maybe useless anyway - safety.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, patman30 said:

if the funds remitted are not accessible income
how would that expose you to more tax?
 

It was unclear from what you wrote previously that you were referring to non-assessable funds. If the funds are not assessable, they can be remitted at will, there's no need to remit lots of them now..

[chiang mai]

52 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That, as far as Thailand is concerned, is your viewpoint. It might be correct, it might be the excretion of a male bovine.

when or if the rules are enacted we will find out which.

 

The U.K. is said to have world wide taxation. I am a U.K. taxpayer. I am not taxed on my world wide income I fully comply with U.K. tax laws. The details are vital. There are only 2 countries that actually have world wide taxation. The chances of Thailand joining that club are slim, I hope.

You are not UK resident for tax purposes, which as we both know is the reason why!

[sometimewoodworker]

21 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As mentioned 1 & 2 are scenarios I've found myself in when I was a tax resident of Singapore & also needed to file returns in the UK, everything was fully reported by PWC in Singapore & my UK Accountant so no Tax evasion/money laundering was involved

While it complied with Sg and U.K. tax rules They are different countries different tax rules so not applicable to Thailand. In Thailand if you are audited you will have to defend the possible tax evasion as it is rather unlikely that if the audit can go deeper than the first transaction that the TRD would agree that it is non assessable.
You absolutely need professional advice of a company who has defended audits so will be able to advise if it is avoidance or evasion. I certainly have no experience, and hope never to have.

[sometimewoodworker]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You are not UK resident for tax purposes, which as we both know is the reason why!

That is why the U.K. doesn’t have worldwide taxation 

There are only 2 countries that have actual world wide taxation 

and as I have said it’s unlikely that Thailand will join the club of 2