5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 I, too, don't like the "Nazi" theme, but that aside Ukraine is a totally corrupt banana republic. I have been there many times and seen it first-hand - most on here have seen it on CNN and think it's just east of Spain.

 

I heard that as well and the evidence of the corruption is very public.  Yanukovych in particular was worth bililons, pocketing development funds. If the Ukraine ever becomes a member of the EU it will bankrupt and break up the EU for sure.

3 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I heard that as well and the evidence of the corruption is very public.  Yanukovych in particular was worth bililons, pocketing development funds. If the Ukraine ever becomes a member of the EU it will bankrupt and break up the EU for sure.

 My cousin lives in Kiev and I have been several times. The cops rolled me over for planted drugs ($700 bribe to make it go away), so I don't have a fond memory of Kiev - the girls were cute, though. 

8 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Yes, the battlefield with Ukraine taking a considerable beating - won't be long now. How about a 'Hail Mary' into Kursk?  1500 a day are dying for your pathetic MSM regurgitation. 

 

You seem to revel at the thought of the Ukrainians 'taking a beating'? But they are fighting for their country and independence, from the big bully next to them. Whereas Russia can only come up with pathetic lies as to why they were forced into trying to bully Ukraine. Stand up and be a man. Admit that it was done because they thought they would get away without a real fight. Seem the Ukrainians don't want to join with your Russia. To try to claim now that you do not support Russia and Putin is patently ridiculous. You search only for information that reinforces your own bias. Russia was not concerned about NATO, they are afraid of Western influence. If their people stopped believing their ridiculous propaganda, the facade and control would quickly disappear. That's their real fear. So they peddle the narrative that the West is evil and they are good. You are just a product of the same propaganda.

5 minutes ago, candide said:

The same B.S. again. There is no policy to put nuclear weapons in every NATwo country. Nuclear weapons have not been moved closer to Russia since the end of the Cold War. They remained where they were initially located. In particular, no nuclear weapon has ever been moved to new NATO members.

 

This is a fake argument.

 

I did not say in "every" NATO country, but American nuclear weapons ARE stationed in several NATO member states.

 

Poland and the US are negotiating as we speak about Poland receiving US nuclear weapons.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

Obviously the possibility of a country like Ukraine, that has in the past seen many calling for its own nuclear weapons, then also using "nuclear sharing" to arm itself is very real.

2 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

You seem to revel at the thought of the Ukrainians 'taking a beating'? But they are fighting for their country and independence, from the big bully next to them. Whereas Russia can only come up with pathetic lies as to why they were forced into trying to bully Ukraine. Stand up and be a man. Admit that it was done because they thought they would get away without a real fight. Seem the Ukrainians don't want to join with your Russia. To try to claim now that you do not support Russia and Putin is patently ridiculous. You search only for information that reinforces your own bias. Russia was not concerned about NATO, they are afraid of Western influence. If their people stopped believing their ridiculous propaganda, the facade and control would quickly disappear. That's their real fear. So they peddle the narrative that the West is evil and they are good. You are just a product of the same propaganda.

 Projection! How much experience have you had of Russia and Ukraine?  I do not support Putin, and I wish the war had never started. It's a proxy war for the USA, and everyone knows that apart from sheeple who refuse to think. 

4 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I heard that as well and the evidence of the corruption is very public.  Yanukovych in particular was worth bililons, pocketing development funds. If the Ukraine ever becomes a member of the EU it will bankrupt and break up the EU for sure.

 

Yanukovych is pro-Russian you fool. He was lined up by Russia to be Ukraine's next president. So you are simply confirming that Russia has been involved in corruption and subterfuge all along.

 

A member of the pro-Russian Party of Regions, Yanukovych provoked mass protests — the Euromaidan — against his rejection of closer integration with the EU^[4] and was removed from the presidency by the Ukrainian parliament in 2014,^[5] at the time neighboring Russia started to annex Ukrainian Crimea and started the Russo-Ukrainian War. Since then, he has lived in exile in Russia.^[6]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych}

Just now, BobBKK said:

 Projection! How much experience have you had of Russia and Ukraine?  I do not support Putin, and I wish the war had never started. It's a proxy war for the USA, and everyone knows that apart from sheeple who refuse to think. 

"Everyone knows it", you are a Commie dreamer.

And you have the front to use the word "sheeple".......🤕

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Projection! How much experience have you had of Russia and Ukraine?  I do not support Putin, and I wish the war had never started. It's a proxy war for the USA, and everyone knows that apart from sheeple who refuse to think. 

 

How is it in your burrow?

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

You didn't "disprove" anything. In fact you proved my point for me. You claimed the Turkey veto against Finlnd and Sweden was evdidence the US had no undue influence. But remind me again, how did Turkey come around? The US promising to supply F16 fighters and other perks? So you proved my point, Brian no?

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/11/why-turkey-changed-its-stance-on-swedens-nato-membership-2

 

Your little truth bomb blew up in your face

Here we go, you need to quote what I actually said in response to your misleading post instead of making up what I said. 

 

Back on topic and talking about truth bombs, I am still waiting for links to your claims that Ukraine was targeting civilians. 

12 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

You are quite wrong, the Germans care very much about Nordstream. Only 2 days ago Gemany served Poand with an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national. A suprising way not to care about it, to launch a full scale investigation and issue an arrest warrant in Poland, don't you think?

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cnvyz1472rpo

 

Nordstream was already finished. Just the registration process was put on ice. Hungary et al still get gas from Russia. Following elections and the end of the Ukraine war it would be conceivable that Germany could revive the Nordstream project. The pipeline is aleady built.

 

If the pipeline was not important, why did Ukraine go to all the trouble to build bombs, dive into the sea and destroy the pipes?

 

Germans are not stupid and able to learn from their mistakes. They have learned they cannot depend on Russia. It's a strategic issue.

 

About the motives of the Ukrainians who bombed the pipeline, If I remember well, at the time of the bombing, the decision to stop all Russian gas imports had not been made.

 

Yes, the investigation is going on, as it's a law-based country, and the German government is likely not happy about it, on principle. However, I doubt that they care that much, and also that they intend to use a large amount of Russian gas again in a next future.

 

 

10 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

Russia was not concerned about NATO, they are afraid of Western influence. If their people stopped believing their ridiculous propaganda, the facade and control would quickly disappear. That's their real fear. So they peddle the narrative that the West is evil and they are good. You are just a product of the same propaganda.

NATO and Western Influence amount to the same thing. NATO is western influence incarnate and western inluence is exercised through NATO.

 

Listen, there is no "good" and "evil" here. Neither America or Russia are "good" or "evil". This Old Testament way to look at the stuation is way too simplistic. There are perspectives. The Russians have theirs, informed by their need for security, and the Americans have theirs informed by their national interests.

 

These only become good or evil depending on which perspective you choose. You for example choose to believe NATO propaganda. So for your Russia is evil. But Russia is not "evil". It is merely trying pursue its national interests, just like America.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by Cameroni

6 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

How is it in your burrow?

 

Your post is 24-carrot but not very bunny

5 minutes ago, candide said:

Germans are not stupid and able to learn from their mistakes. They have learned they cannot depend on Russia. It's a strategic issue.

 

About the motives of the Ukrainians who bombed the pipeline, If I remember well, at the time of the bombing, the decision to stop all Russian gas imports had not been made.

 

Yes, the investigation is going on, as it's a law-based country, and the German government is likely not happy about it, on principle. However, I doubt that they care that much, and also that they intend to use a large amount of Russian gas again in a next future.

 

 

 

That's the view of people like this juvenile Annalena Baerbock, who really should be running a kindergarten not  Germany's foreign ministry. However, Ms Baerbock will not be around forever. Political views change, just look at Willy Brandt.

 

Who knows what the future will bring. If we could predict it we will all be lottery winners, right candide?

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by Cameroni

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

NATO and Western Influence amount to the same thing. NATO is western influence incarnate and western inluence is exercised through NATO.

 

Listen, there is no "good" and "evil" here. Neither America or Russia are "good" or "evil". This Old Testament way to look at the stuation is way to simplistic. There are perspectives. The Russians have theirs, informed by their need for security, and the Americans have theirs informed by their national interests.

 

These only become good or evil depending on which perspective you choose. You for example choose to believe NATO propaganda. So for your Russia is evil. But Russia is not evil. It is merely trying pursue its national interests, just like America.

 

Nonsense. NATO and Western influence do not amount to the same thing. You make up outrageously untrue statement, pretend they are a fait accompli and then base the rest of your BS on that. That's your modus operandi.

 

 

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Your post is 24-carrot but not very bunny

 

Humour is good.

13 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Projection! How much experience have you had of Russia and Ukraine?  I do not support Putin, and I wish the war had never started. It's a proxy war for the USA, and everyone knows that apart from sheeple who refuse to think. 

sheeple who refuse to think

 

When you have nothing call those you don't agree with sheeple. 

20 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I did not say in "every" NATO country, but American nuclear weapons ARE stationed in several NATO member states.

 

Poland and the US are negotiating as we speak about Poland receiving US nuclear weapons.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

Obviously the possibility of a country like Ukraine, that has in the past seen many calling for its own nuclear weapons, then also using "nuclear sharing" to arm itself is very real.

It seems you have some problems with chronology. They negotiate now, because of the invasion of Ukraine and the repeated threats by Russia to use nuclear weapons. It cannot be the cause of the Russian war.

 

There was absolutely no talk in NATO to   put nuclear weapons nearer to the Russian border. They did not do it and did not intend to do it, before Russia started to openly and officially make nuclear threats. It's a fake argument to justify the Russian invasion.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by candide

2 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

Nonsense. NATO and Western influence do not amount to the same thing. You make up outrageously untrue statement, pretend they are a fait accompli and then base the rest of your BS on that. That's your modus operandi.

 

 

 

Of course they do. The US uses NATO to project Western influence. 

 

NATO was founded in the West to protect the West.

 

To say the West projects its influence using NATO is no more "outrageous" than saying a Zebra has stripes.

4 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

That's the view of people like this juvenile Annalena Baerbock, who really should be running a kindergarten not  Germany's foreign ministry. However, Ms Baerbock will not be around forever. Political views change, just look at Willy Brandt.

 

Who knows what the future will bring. If we could predict it we will all be lottery winners, right candide?

You are confusing "view" and strategic analysis. It is obvious now that Germany and other European countries must not be dependent on Russia. It's also not a concern with only Russia, as the current debate about strategic sovereignty in the EU is highlighting.

2 minutes ago, candide said:

It seems you have dome problems with chronology. They negotiate now, because of the invasion of Ukraine and the repeated threats by Russia to use nuclear weapons. It cannot be the cause of the Russian war.

 

There was absolutely no talk in NATO to   put nuclear weapons nearer to the Russian border. They did not do it and did not intend to do it, before Russia started to openly and officially make nuclear threats. It'sva fake argument to justify the Russian invasion.

Supposedly, part of Russia’s strategic defense network is in close proximity to Ukraine.  So they aren’t necessarily concerned with just the presence of nukes in Ukraine. They also feel non-nuclear missiles on their border could be a threat to their defense network.  For Russia, that’s a red line,  

7 minutes ago, candide said:

It seems you have dome problems with chronology. They negotiate now, because of the invasion of Ukraine and the repeated threats by Russia to use nuclear weapons. It cannot be the cause of the Russian war.

 

There was absolutely no talk in NATO to   put nuclear weapons nearer to the Russian border. They did not do it and did not intend to do it, before Russia started to openly and officially make nuclear threats. It's a fake argument to justify the Russian invasion.

 

Again, you keep putting words in my mouth, I never said Poland's negotiations to obtain nuclear weapons were a cause of the Ukraine war. However, the possibility that Ukraine could become a member of NATO and request nuclear sharing most likely did play a role in considerations in Russia.

 

How do you know there was no intention to extend nuclear sharing to some of the new NATO states, like is now being considered for Poland? How do you know what talks are held behind closed doors?

 

What we know for a fact, several NATO member states do participate in nuclear sharing and have US nuclear weapons stationed in their territory. In 2008 NATO declared Ukraine will become a member of NATO. Ukrainian politicians have called for nuclear weapons of their own LONG BEFORE the Ukraine war.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by Cameroni

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

sheeple who refuse to think

 

When you have nothing call those you don't agree with sheeple. 

 aww Brian I was just accused of burrowing my head and took it in good humour - Hare today gone tomorrow!

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 aww Brian I was just accused of burrowing my head and took it in good humour - Hare today gone tomorrow!

Your Russian inspired version of humour is not amusing and very telling and you still have nothing

@freeworld I have just removed over 20 trolling emoji's that you placed on various posts in this topic within the last few minutes. Another trolling rampage like that and action will be taken.

17 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Again, you keep putting words in my mouth, I never said Poland's negotiations to obtain nuclear weapons were a cause of the Ukraine war. However, the possibility that Ukraine could become a member of NATO and request nuclear sharing most likely did play a role in considerations in Russia.

 

How do you know there was no intention to extend nuclear sharing to some of the new NATO states, like is now being considered for Poland? How do you know what talks are held behind closed doors?

 

What we know for a fact, several NATO member states do participate in nuclear sharing and have US nuclear weapons stationed in their territory. In 2008 NATO declared Ukraine will become a member of NATO. Ukrainian politicians have called for nuclear weapons of their own LONG BEFORE the Ukraine war.

Fact is that no nuclear weapon has been moved nearer to the Russian border, and no such intent has ever shown, before Russia started to make nuclear threats.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by candide

44 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Supposedly, part of Russia’s strategic defense network is in close proximity to Ukraine.  So they aren’t necessarily concerned with just the presence of nukes in Ukraine. They also feel non-nuclear missiles on their border could be a threat to their defense network.  For Russia, that’s a red line,  

The only NATO missiles deployed nearer to the Russian border, in Poland and Romania, were anti-missiles system (AEGIS). 

There has never been any plan to deploy offensive missiles never to the Russian border.

Another fake argument.

 

P.S. Additionally, Ukraine is not such a strategic location. Check on a map which NATO countries are close to Saint Petetsburg and Moscow, and compare the distance with the distance from Ukraine.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by candide

15 minutes ago, candide said:

Fact is that no nuclear weapon has been moved nearer to the Russian border, and no such intent has ever shown, before Russia started to make nuclear threats.

 

America has been arming Ukraine with ever more lethal weapons. It is almost certain once the war is over Ukraine will participate in nuclear sharing after it becomes a NATO member. Ukrainians have demanded nuclear weapons for decades.

 

Of course NATO can't grant Ukraine NATO membership now when it is at war with Russia, because that would mean going to war with Russia. But once the peace settlement is in place it will be a question of time only before Ukraine becomes a NATO member and participates in nuclear sharing.

6 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

America has been arming Ukraine with ever more lethal weapons. It is almost certain once the war is over Ukraine will participate in nuclear sharing after it becomes a NATO member. Ukrainians have demanded nuclear weapons for decades.

 

Of course NATO can't grant Ukraine NATO membership now when it is at war with Russia, because that would mean going to war with Russia. But once the peace settlement is in place it will be a question of time only before Ukraine becomes a NATO member and participates in nuclear sharing.

Guessing..............😂

Did I get a proper answer from you as to why Sweden & Finland asked to join NATO....?

9 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

America has been arming Ukraine with ever more lethal weapons. It is almost certain once the war is over Ukraine will participate in nuclear sharing after it becomes a NATO member. Ukrainians have demanded nuclear weapons for decades.

 

Of course NATO can't grant Ukraine NATO membership now when it is at war with Russia, because that would mean going to war with Russia. But once the peace settlement is in place it will be a question of time only before Ukraine becomes a NATO member and participates in nuclear sharing.

It's not certain and it's post invasion.

It's not an argument to justify the invasion. The same chronological causal problem again. You are justifying an event with arguments dealing with what may happen after the event.

It's a fallacious argumentation.

Edited August 16, 20241 yr by candide

4 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

America has been arming Ukraine with ever more lethal weapons. It is almost certain once the war is over Ukraine will participate in nuclear sharing after it becomes a NATO member. Ukrainians have demanded nuclear weapons for decades.

 

Of course NATO can't grant Ukraine NATO membership now when it is at war with Russia, because that would mean going to war with Russia. But once the peace settlement is in place it will be a question of time only before Ukraine becomes a NATO member and participates in nuclear sharing.

Another example of the lies you post. Provide a link that confirms Ukraine has demanded nuclear weapons for decades, when they gave them up in 1994 in return for a guarantee of national security.

 

Then provide evidence the US, UK and France have EVER shared their nuclear secrets with anyone.

 

Nuclear sharing, another lie from a Kremlin troll.