paying taxes in thailand as an american

[riclag]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:49 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Don't worry till a tax man knocks on your door. Where's that kicking a dead horse emoji when you need it.

Bingo  imop

 

[atpeace]

30 minutes ago, statman78 said:

I haven’t checked into the requirements but my wife lived in the US for 9 years and became a US citizen.  Unfortunately she did not work long enough to qualify for her own benefits even though she paid into the system.  I believe that a person needs to pay into the system for 40 quarters.

She doesn't have to work to receive spousal benefits that will be 50% of yours.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, BKKKevin said:

How many of you have told your wives they are allowed 20 million a year in gifts tax free?.. 😂

How many of my wives have I told? Only the minor ones.

[BKKKevin]

53 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

How many of my wives have I told? Only the minor ones.

I’m sure any minor wife has learned this on her own… 

[NoDisplayName]

18 hours ago, BKKKevin said:

Then it’s my understanding that one get a 60k personal deduction, a 190k 65yo+ deduction and the first 150k has a tax rate of zero… That’s 410,000 I can transfer from my personal US account with no tax due…

 

That's still just the self-determined assessable funds.  You can still remit any amount of non-assessable funds tax free.

 

Unless the situation changes, which I predict to be unlikely, you local tax office official will still accept your claim that you remitted "prior savings" into Thailand.

 

Of course you'll be filing online, and remitting less than the taxable amount of assessable funds, so probably won't need to explain anything.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

3 hours ago, atpeace said:

Since October last year they have been chasing their tails trying to find answers.  It is extremely entertaining and even Mike Lister, the ring master seems to have thrown in the towel.  The mob was even starting to turn on him when he started admitting there is no new info to obtain and just calmly wait and see.

I feel compelled to set the record straight.
None of the more intelligent participants in the tax-related threads have been "chasing their tails." Instead, they have spent considerable time and energy successfully finding answers, which has been a source of frustration for the naysayers from the beginning. Mike Lister, Dogmatix, and many others did not leave the tax discussions for the speculative reasons you suggest. The educated and level-headed participants in these threads have a solid understanding of the current situation and are tired of dealing with individuals who engage in chest-pounding and ego-driven behavior, only to spread their own misguided notions. Mike, in particular, has patiently responded to and rebutted every misinterpretation, which some of the less-informed individuals, i.e., the "losers," have turned into personal attacks. I certainly don't blame Mike and the other well-informed contributors for no longer participating in the tax-related discussions.

[atpeace]

45 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I feel compelled to set the record straight.
None of the more intelligent participants in the tax-related threads have been "chasing their tails." Instead, they have spent considerable time and energy successfully finding answers, which has been a source of frustration for the naysayers from the beginning. Mike Lister, Dogmatix, and many others did not leave the tax discussions for the speculative reasons you suggest. The educated and level-headed participants in these threads have a solid understanding of the current situation and are tired of dealing with individuals who engage in chest-pounding and ego-driven behavior, only to spread their own misguided notions. Mike, in particular, has patiently responded to and rebutted every misinterpretation, which some of the less-informed individuals, i.e., the "losers," have turned into personal attacks. I certainly don't blame Mike and the other well-informed contributors for no longer participating in the tax-related discussions.

Never blamed Mike.  He seemed sincere.  I told him in October last year he was wasting his time and I was right.  Nothing was learned.  We are in the same position as we were in October last year.  Please tell what we have learned that we didn't know in October.  This is basically rehashing an old law that has been on the books for a long time. Will they enforce it and how it will be implemented in regards to us foreigners is up in the air.  I would assume Mike for the most part would admit the same.  

 

If the truth hurts - sorry but it is the truth from my perspective.  I will be sad to see tax threads disappear because they are extremely entertaining.  In Mike's case, he seems to have lost interest in soothing the herd and not soon enough because the herd of nutters was starting to turn on him.  Go back to the first post in October last year and then skip forward 2 months at a time and read some of the posts.  Hilarious!!!!

 

For whatever reason, I'm not worried much about something that will probably have little impact on me but I may be wrong🙂

 

[DrPhibes]

4 hours ago, atpeace said:

So it provides no useful info? Wouldn't they want info on taxes paid?  A new Thai tax law that requires filing in your home country is a new concept and form 6201 would meet this new requirement. Back to the real world....

Ya, that is why I can see them asking for US tax returns as part of the Thai tax submission.  That is never going to happen for me.  I will bring over only my US Social Security that I'm  already depositing in a separate account and provide proof of that.  Non-taxable to Thailand.

[atpeace]

55 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

Ya, that is why I can see them asking for US tax returns as part of the Thai tax submission.  That is never going to happen for me.  I will bring over only my US Social Security that I'm  already depositing in a separate account and provide proof of that.  Non-taxable to Thailand.

I have some years to go before SS.  I'm 57 and was thinking of not collecting until 70.  I have only worked for 10 years so my benefit isn't big but with that said the social security system benefits those with shorter working years ( not fare IMO but I'll take the money 🙂 ).  I think my check would be around 2,300 at 70 in todays dollars.  

Edited September 2 by atpeace

[jaideedave]

On 8/31/2024 at 12:03 PM, newnative said:

     As an American, all the pension or social security money I am sending over is shielded from Thai taxes by the dual taxation agreement.   I plan to do nothing unless I am absolutely required to do something.   Right now, there is nothing required that I know of, and that includes filing a Thai tax return.

As a retired Canuck I 100% agree with you. I'm not filing with TRD unless they ask mainly because as you say my pensions are covered in the Dual tax agrement.

[gamb00ler]

20 hours ago, atpeace said:

Nothing was learned.  We are in the same position as we were in October last year. 

Perhaps you didn't learn anything, but I did and probably others.  Please just speak for yourself only.

[acepredator]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:21 PM, flexomike said:

Can you explain how the DTA was claimed on your return. Are you also working in Thailand where you are required to pay taxes. My money transfers this year were entirely from direct social security deposits to my Bangkok Bank account. Really hope they come up with a statement that they will not be taxing US Social Security deposits.

Under the DTA between the U.S. and Thailand, Social Security benefits can only be taxed by the IRS. It is clearly stated in Article 20, subsection 1 of the DTA. I suggest you print up a copy of the DTA, as I did, in the unlikely event that you have to offer proof to the Thai Revenue Department that they absolutely cannot tax even a single penny of your Social Security benefits.

[acepredator]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:35 PM, atpeace said:

I have some years to go before SS.  I'm 57 and was thinking of not collecting until 70.  I have only worked for 10 years so my benefit isn't big but with that said the social security system benefits those with shorter working years ( not fare IMO but I'll take the money 🙂 ).  I think my check would be around 2,300 at 70 in todays dollars.  

I also worked 10 years in America, and in return I receive the princely sum of 594 dollars a month. Maybe not fair, but, as you said, I'll take the money, which I do every month. The Social Security system is steadily going bankrupt. Within the next 13 years there will be massive changes in the form of reduced benefits. It seems extremely unlikely that you would get as much as 2300 dollars per month by then. You can still hope, but I certainly wouldn't count on it. My best advice is for you to take Social Security as soon as possible, at age 62, as I did. You won't receive as much, of course, but at least you'll get something. By age 70 there may be nothing left in the Social Security system at all.

[pmarlin]

On 8/31/2024 at 12:03 PM, newnative said:

     As an American, all the pension or social security money I am sending over is shielded from Thai taxes by the dual taxation agreement.   I plan to do nothing unless I am absolutely required to do something.   Right now, there is nothing required that I know of, and that includes filing a Thai tax return.

and so is Military retirement, VA disability and other Government pensions.

[Presnock]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:54 PM, CMBob said:

I don't question that somebody at the RD may have told you that (or that's what you understood they were saying). however, let's use our brains to understand how this will work per what you say you were told (and I'll use 2024 tax year as an example and presume you're a US citizen).

(1)  The Thai tax return would be due to be filed by March 31, 2025.

(2)  The US tax return for an expat isn't due to be filed until June 15th, 2025 (although one has the right to file early, let's say by April 15th, 2025).

(3)  If you're real lucky, obtaining a tax clearance certificate (a/k/a Tax Compliance Report) from the IRS would take 6-12 months after you've filed and paid taxes involving your 2024 return.

(4)  It'll be just a wee bit difficult (read: impossible) to have an IRS tax clearance certificate available when you file your Thai tax return.

 

Actually if you are an American, you get a 1099, 1099 or W2 form (required to be given to you by the end of January I believe) that is a govt document says how much money you have been paid indicates who paid you that money and how much tax was withheld by that paying office.  I realize that once you do file the 1040's, you may end up paying less as you would get more deductions possibly but the original pay slip should satisfy the Thai RD that you did receive how much and how much tax was with held by the paying office.  But, TIT and I am not sure that they would accept those documents - the BOI wanted a copy of my 1040's and not accepting the 1099R which is a US govt office paying my pension.  But, the new year is rolling around shortly, still nothing new from the RD and guess the only think we will see soon maybe is the "new" tax forms for 2024 and we will be checking those I guess for any possible clues as to what will follow.  The same for those "disscussions" of further tax scheme - maybe the new govt will let us know, especially since I see more news articles on the desires of the govt for more retirees and talented folks getting possible breaks to come here though nothing definite has been provided publically YET!.  Best of luck to all

[cjinchiangrai]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:35 PM, redwood1 said:

This has to be the most bazaar thing I have seen in my entire life here.....

 

Like who is a Foreigner? Are the Chinese, Japanese , Korean, Russian, Indian expats Foreigners?

 

I guess not, because they don't seem to give a rats azz about any of this tax nonsense......Folks. No one but western expats are going to lift a finger to produce document forms tax records bla bla .....

 

For some strange reason There seem to be loads of retired western farang practically beating down the door at the tax office and demanding that they be given a tax number and insisting come hell or high water they be allowed to pay taxes...

 

The whole thing is beyond strange.......lol

 

The fact that almost no Thais pay taxes. does not bother these desperate to pay taxes expats at all.......

Anyone holding a long stay visa. If you want to keep your visa, you will follow the rules.

 

Now I am wondering if they will use the tax service to weed out the deadbeat border bouncers. It could be interesting to watch.

Edited September 5 by cjinchiangrai

[acepredator]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:45 AM, atpeace said:

She doesn't have to work to receive spousal benefits that will be 50% of yours.

Where did you get this ridiculous idea from? You cannot marry a woman, die, and then have your widow get 50% of your Social Security system benefits for the rest of her life. That's simply not how the system works. In order for the spouse of a deceased beneficiary to receive any benefits, the spouse must himself or herself be eligible to receive benefits on their own. This means that they must be at least 65 years old (spouses cannot take early retirement at 62), and they must have a social security number and have paid into the system for at least 40 quarters. Do you really think that I could marry a thirty year old woman, die a week from now, and then have her receive half of my benefits for the next fifty years? If you think the United States government is that generous, then you don't know much about how the government works. I suggest that you do a little research first before you submit such a ludicrous post as the one you submitted.

 

On 9/2/2024 at 9:45 AM, atpeace said:

She doesn't have to work to receive spousal benefits that will be 50% of yours.

 

[acepredator]

On 9/1/2024 at 5:01 PM, BKKKevin said:

I have applied to the SSA to have my social security direct deposited to my Bangkok Bank account thru the IID system… This gives me a clean easily provable stream of incoming cash that I can say is not taxable due to treaty obligations… 

Then it’s my understanding that one get a 60k personal deduction, a 190k 65yo+ deduction and the first 150k has a tax rate of zero… That’s 410,000 I can transfer from my personal US account with no tax due… Anything above that I plan on transferring to my Thai partners bank account as Thai tax law allows for a lifetime 10 million baht gift tax exemption…

 

As to whether I will be required to file a tax return here… I don’t see this happening any time soon… NO Thai government entity is capable of administering the setup of a tax ID and processing a tax return for several hundred thousand expats from 50 different countries…

 

Just look at how well the administrate the online 90 day reporting… 

I was sent a letter to my home address from the Thai Revenue Department in Chiang Mai saying that I had to come to their office to first get a taxpayer ID number and then to file an income tax return. This was about three years ago. So, I have filed every year since then. If they were able to find me at my home address, then why wouldn't they be able to find all the other expats here, even if we number several hundred thousand and come from 50 different countries? The expats who think that the Thai government doesn't know who we are or where we live, I believe, are very naive. We are not invisible. The government is fully aware that we are visitors to their country. Also, not to be pedantic, but 60k + 190k + 150k equals 400,000, rather than 410,000 as you stated in your post.

[JimGant]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:21 AM, Presnock said:

Especially since in the DTA, the Article 21 just following the SS Article 20, specifically mentions that US govt pensions could be taxed by Thailand if the recipient is a Thai tax-resident and also a Thai native.  This is one question that I am sure will be thought about by the Thai Revenue Department.

Well, if a dual citizen, the US citizenship overrides, at least for SS, tho' not for govt pensions:

 

Quote

......since social security benefits are taxable exclusively by the source country and so are government pensions. The result will differ only when the payment is made to a citizen and resident of the other Contracting State, who is not also a citizen of the paying State. In such a case, social security benefits continue to be taxable at source while government pensions become taxable only in the residence country.

 

[acepredator]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:15 AM, statman78 said:

I haven’t checked into the requirements but my wife lived in the US for 9 years and became a US citizen.  Unfortunately she did not work long enough to qualify for her own benefits even though she paid into the system.  I believe that a person needs to pay into the system for 40 quarters.

Yes, you are correct. That person does, indeed, have to pay into the system for 40 quarters. Any money that she did pay into the system goes to help support me and other Social Security beneficiaries. Unfortunately for her, none of the money she paid will go to her in the future.

[gamb00ler]

2 hours ago, acepredator said:

Do you really think that I could marry a thirty year old woman, die a week from now, and then have her receive half of my benefits for the next fifty years?

Yes.... but she must meet some qualifications.  She would have to be married to you and live in US with you for 5 years cumulative.  I believe that if you were in the armed forces and stationed overseas for five years she could also qualify.  For full details:

 

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf

 

Edited September 5 by gamb00ler

[DrPhibes]

4 hours ago, acepredator said:

Where did you get this ridiculous idea from? You cannot marry a woman, die, and then have your widow get 50% of your Social Security system benefits for the rest of her life. That's simply not how the system works. In order for the spouse of a deceased beneficiary to receive any benefits, the spouse must himself or herself be eligible to receive benefits on their own. This means that they must be at least 65 years old (spouses cannot take early retirement at 62), and they must have a social security number and have paid into the system for at least 40 quarters. Do you really think that I could marry a thirty year old woman, die a week from now, and then have her receive half of my benefits for the next fifty years? If you think the United States government is that generous, then you don't know much about how the government works. I suggest that you do a little research first before you submit such a ludicrous post as the one you submitted.

 

 

I will be collecting my normal Social Security in Oct eventhough I am still working.  My 20yr younger wife has never worked.  We have a miracle 6yr old. When I start collecting, my wife and 6 yr old will both start collecting off my SS.  All told, adding their SS and mine hits the family max which is about 2x my SS per month.   Wife will get it until the child turns 16 and the child gets it until he turns 18.  Maybe you should be doing your homework before making such statements.   Enrolled Agent with the US Internal Revenue Service 😉

 

When I die or not, she will be able to get Social Security off my earnings once she hits 62.

Edited September 5 by DrPhibes
Content

[atpeace]

5 hours ago, acepredator said:

Where did you get this ridiculous idea from? You cannot marry a woman, die, and then have your widow get 50% of your Social Security system benefits for the rest of her life. That's simply not how the system works. In order for the spouse of a deceased beneficiary to receive any benefits, the spouse must himself or herself be eligible to receive benefits on their own. This means that they must be at least 65 years old (spouses cannot take early retirement at 62), and they must have a social security number and have paid into the system for at least 40 quarters. Do you really think that I could marry a thirty year old woman, die a week from now, and then have her receive half of my benefits for the next fifty years? If you think the United States government is that generous, then you don't know much about how the government works. I suggest that you do a little research first before you submit such a ludicrous post as the one you submitted.

 

 

Nope, where did yo get that info. Millions  of stay at home Mom's are collecting social security and never have worked a day of there life while their husband is still living.  My Mom would be one of those and my Dad is still alive.  Google is your friend - try it out.  Here I'll help and don't worry about apologizing for being a foolish know it all.  

 

https://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/t051-c032-s014-stay-at-home-parents-can-still-qualify-for-social.html#:~:text=social security-,Social Security for Stay-at-Home Moms (and Dads,just like any other worker.

[JohnnyBD]

4 hours ago, acepredator said:

Yes, you are correct. That person does, indeed, have to pay into the system for 40 quarters. Any money that she did pay into the system goes to help support me and other Social Security beneficiaries. Unfortunately for her, none of the money she paid will go to her in the future.

Even though she didn't pay into the system for 40 quarters, she can collect SS spousal benefits on her husband's record (once she reaches SS age), but only after he starts collecting his SS. Then, if he passes away first, the wife will get a SS survivor benefit (equal to his benefit amount) instead of her SS spousal benefit.

Edited September 5 by JohnnyBD

[atpeace]

4 hours ago, acepredator said:

Yes, you are correct. That person does, indeed, have to pay into the system for 40 quarters. Any money that she did pay into the system goes to help support me and other Social Security beneficiaries. Unfortunately for her, none of the money she paid will go to her in the future.

Wow. You have no idea how social security works and you are collecting from the system.  Simply amazing and not only that you are insulting others in previous posts that do understand the system.  His wife does not and let me emphasize "does not" HAVE TO PAY INTO THE SYSTEM FOR 40 QUARTERS.   He has to pay into the system for 40 quarters and his wife will receive up to 50 percent of his benefit.  There are restrictions but in most cases she will receive around 50%.  

 

 

[atpeace]

10 hours ago, acepredator said:

I also worked 10 years in America, and in return I receive the princely sum of 594 dollars a month. Maybe not fair, but, as you said, I'll take the money, which I do every month. The Social Security system is steadily going bankrupt. Within the next 13 years there will be massive changes in the form of reduced benefits. It seems extremely unlikely that you would get as much as 2300 dollars per month by then. You can still hope, but I certainly wouldn't count on it. My best advice is for you to take Social Security as soon as possible, at age 62, as I did. You won't receive as much, of course, but at least you'll get something. By age 70 there may be nothing left in the Social Security system at all.

Been hearing that for 50 years now. Your the guy that thinks wife's don't get social security benefits if they haven't worked.  Been posting this nonsense repeatedly on this thread.   Hard to take you serious. 

 

So many fixes and most probably wouldn't impact my benefit much. Simply trimming benefits for high earners or increasing the SS tax cap on  high earners for example would probably extend the program out another 25 years. Literally millions of fixes that in the end won't be too painful.  I can't wait for you to call me a foo which seems to be a habit of yours.

Edited September 5 by atpeace

[mudcat]

I would like to add some clarification to the discussion about Social Security benefits for Thai spouses who are US citizens or who lived in the US for a minimum of five years as a permanet resident.

 

Thai (and all) spouses collect spousal benefits first based on their US work (if any) and can collect an additional beneft as a spouse only if their spouse has already filed for benefits.  Spousal benefis are a maximum of 50% of your Full Retirement Age benefit and can be applied for beginning at 62 years old that subject to a reduction of as much as 30% for claiming before your spouse's full retirement age (for most today 67 years old).  It is important to apply for this benefit as soon as eligible as it establishes your spouses eligibilty and payment details while you are around to assist her in the application, as the spouse benefit converts to the higher survivor benefit automaticaaly when you die.

 

The survivor benefit is a much more important, as it is designed to replace the portion of the family income that came from your Social Security benefit.  Your spouse can claim beginning at 60 years old, again taking a reduction for claiming prior to their full retirement age, and is capped at your benefit as reduced by your early rerirement if you took it (RIB-Lim or widow's limit)  Your children can claim a smaller but still significant benefit up until 16  years old so long as you filed with embassy or their US citizenship.

 

Both your spouse's spousal benefit and her (but not your children'' benetits) are compromised if your spouse re-marries before she turns sixty - the spouse benefit disappears but her survivor beneft can be re-established if tha marriag ends.  I have cautioned my wife that even a village my put her benefits at risk.

To ease the way forward for my wife I have pre-filled out the spouse, survivor, and death benefit forms so she has the required information and documents at hand during the telephone application with the Federal Benefits Unit attached the embassy in Manila.  I update and we review these forms fogether every year and have draft emails to the Bangkok embassy and the Manila FBU to send after I die.

[acepredator]

16 hours ago, atpeace said:

Wow. You have no idea how social security works and you are collecting from the system.  Simply amazing and not only that you are insulting others in previous posts that do understand the system.  His wife does not and let me emphasize "does not" HAVE TO PAY INTO THE SYSTEM FOR 40 QUARTERS.   He has to pay into the system for 40 quarters and his wife will receive up to 50 percent of his benefit.  There are restrictions but in most cases she will receive around 50%.  

 

 

It was certainly neither my intention nor my desire to be either insulting or offensive in any way. I merely wanted to make my points with clarity and elan. My statements were based on my experience with one of my adult students in South Korea from about 30 years ago. She was married to an older American who died. She asked me if I could help her investigate the possibility of collecting any or all of his Social Security benefits. This was decades before I started getting benefits myself, so I really knew very little about the system. In her case, she was not a U.S. citizen, not even a Green Card holder. She had never worked in America, and, in fact, had never left South Korea at all. So, of course, she had no Social Security number. My research revealed that she did not qualify for any of her late husband's benefits. Maybe my research was faulty, or maybe the rules have changed in the last 30 years. In any event, what I posted was clearly entirely erroneous. So, I stand corrected and am very appreciative of the opportunity to learn something new. I am the least dogmatic person you will ever meet and am readily willing to change my views when presented with superior knowledge and evidence. Thanks very much for setting me straight and for providing me with information that may prove to be valuable in the future.

[acepredator]

16 hours ago, atpeace said:

Been hearing that for 50 years now. Your the guy that thinks wife's don't get social security benefits if they haven't worked.  Been posting this nonsense repeatedly on this thread.   Hard to take you serious. 

 

So many fixes and most probably wouldn't impact my benefit much. Simply trimming benefits for high earners or increasing the SS tax cap on  high earners for example would probably extend the program out another 25 years. Literally millions of fixes that in the end won't be too painful.  I can't wait for you to call me a foo which seems to be a habit of yours.

You're 57 years old and you've been listening to what's been said about Social Security for the last 50 years? That means you took an interest in Social Security policy when you were only 7 years old. You must have been an extremely precocious child. When I was 7 years old, I was only interested in riding my Schwinn bicycle and blowing the biggest bubbles with my bazooka bubblegum. I may have started to take notice of these strange creatures called "girls." Many decades later, I am still trying to figure them out. 

 

Say you were to take benefits in 5 years at age 62. You might get about 800 dollars a month, which is 9,600 dollars a year. If, instead, you waited 8 more years until age 70, you would have given up 76,800 dollars. That's a sizeable chunk of money to walk away from. At age 70 you'd get 2,300 a month, which means that it would take 33 months to make up for the 76,800 dollars you didn't take. Therefore, you'd only start making money from Social Security when you were nearly 73 years old. That's 11 years of lost benefits. It's a precarious world, especially if you ride a motorbike in Thailand, as I do. A lot of dangerous, and potentially lethal, things could happen to you in the next 16 years, resulting in you getting nothing from Social Security at all.

 

The old expression says that "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." If I were you, I'd consider very carefully before deciding not to take that first Social Security payment the month of your 62 birthday.

 

 

 

 

[newnative]

    I have been following the discussion regarding SS and spouse benefits.  I wonder if anybody knows the answer to my situation.  I am an American citizen, age 72, legally married, in the US, to a Thai citizen, age 58, since 2016.  We live in Thailand full-time.  Thai spouse has a SS number but no SS work credits.   Would he qualify for spouse benefits when he turns 62 and survival benefits after I pass away?   We do not plan to live in the US for 5 years.   Thanks in advance if anyone has any information on this type of marriage situation.